I believe that ALL affairs start with 'just talking' and many of them begin at bars. My H did some things that were not appropriate for our marriage, and they all started with him drinking at the bar first.

He had an affair that we have worked through with much counseling, prayer, etc. But he knows that because of that, I no longer have tolerance for him sitting in a bar, dancing with 'friends,' etc.

If it bothers you, then it's disrespectful to continue. I do not know of any marriage that was ever helped with alcohol or bars! Good luck

Wow!

I just posted a similar thread down in the recovery section... My wife and I are having the exact same arguement and we feel pretty much the same as you described yourself and spouse. The only difference is that my wife is trying to be accomodating.

For example, she agrees that going out all the time is bad and says she just wants to plan on the occaisonal girls night (1 or 2 a month) She also says that she understands that I am uncomfortable and she is cool with me checking up on her at the bar and telling me specifically where she will be and when she will leave etc...

She is also ok with me going out to the bar...

The problem is that I know what I always see out at the dance clubs... Especially, with married people... It really is never good. I am trying to understand why my wife likes it so much but her explanations are really lacking in "substance." Basically, she likes getting dressed up and dancing with her female friends...

I am so confused because if she is telling the truth then I don't have a problem with it. I guess I just don't really believe her motivations...

Anyway, check out my post it may give more insight to you too...

Hello to all, and thanks for the advice. Just an update, as of now the bar seems kind of insignificant. The new thing is this, My W is a teacher and is off for the summer, and I work full time and only get 4 weeks vacation. Now she is telling me that she is going to go on vacations even if I cant get time off from work. I dont feel that is fair to me to take vacations without me. After all, it is because I work full time, that she is able to not work in the summer and spend all of her time with her son. Every time I try to understand her, she drops another bomb on top of my head. I have been understanding and relaxed about the things that she wants to do no matter how much I disagree with them. I am giving her space. But, the more I give, the more she takes. My question is this, at what point do I say enough is enough? At what point do I say my EN's are more important than hers? I have printed the MB concepts and tried to get her to read them to no avail, because she feels that my ideas about marriage are abnormal and I am the problem. How does one work on rebuilding the marriage when the other believes they do no wrong? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Well, I need to go. I am at work now. I will check back later on. Thank you all for the support and encouragement. Jim

Whatnow...

Sorry to hear about this. Does your wife take vacations with you during the year or make any attempt to have you prioritize vacationing with her?

In some ways it sounds kinda bad because she will be off without you... However, does she need to spend time with her son? I think you mentioned the child doesn't live with you guys full time. In that case, it doesn't seem extremely strange that she would want to spend some portion of the vacation with them.

The only other thing I can think to add right now is the question of whether or not the summer vacation adversely affects your standard of living. For example, does she bring in enough money to justify not working over the summer? If you are the primary bread winner in the family, she should be more cognizant of your role and responsibilty...

Just in case that last part was misunderstood...

My wife is self employed / makes her own schedule etc... I make more money but have a far more rigid schedule. Because of this fact, my wife prioritizes time off with me around my schedule. (She makes sure she is working alot so that when I have time off it is no problem for her to take time off...) She also tries to be fair about the amount of time she works... (She will take time off to spend time with our kids and family but not for personal vacation / her own fun) so I don't feel resentment working to support her leisure activities.

Lastly, based on your initial post, and now this latest news... Are you sure your Wife is not testing the limits of your control? My wife went through a period of "I am going to do this, that and anything else and you can't stop me..." I recoginzed that she was feeling conflicted between her independance within marriage. I stood firm in my beliefs but never ordered or drew alot of lines in the sand... She came around very quickly and doesn't want to do many of things she said she might want to. It's better because now it is her idea and not my demand / request.

Hope this helps!

It really sounds like your wife is a "cakewoman"
who enjoys being independent and doing her own thing while also having the security of a husband and a marriage. She believes your ideas on marriage are abnormal? She enjoys going to bars with her friends leaving you at home to babysit and now telling you she wishes to to go on vacations without you. These are things that single women do and not someone who is married should be doing. Her retort that you are not her father indicates how she feels about the concept of your relationship and your marriage. The bottom line is that your wife is not marriage material and this will be a constant battle now and in the future. How great for her that she can do the things a single woman can do and also fall back on having you as a husband. She is being very disrespectful to you and your marriage. Her attitude indicates that it may be a matter of time before she may become interested in someone else. A person who engages in single activities will eventually meet someone else. Was this a problem in her first marriage?

Hello Bryanp, I do not know if it was a problem in her past marriage. All I know is what she has told me and what I have seen with her former husband. He is more of an irresponsible gypsy, and I am the opposite of that. Also, in response to the post from "too many questions" her son is always with us and we have always taken vacations together in the past. The latest problem started when, at the last minute she decided to help her sister move to Florida with her new boyfriend. She suggested that we go together, and she help her sister drive. I told her, you wouldnt help me drive when we went to florida and that I had to drive 16 hours non-stop when we went. I also told her, the way the current economic climate is, it would not be a good time for me to take time off from work. Good jobs are hard to come by right now, and I do not want to take any chances of losing my job at this time. I also told her that I would rather use the time off to do something fun and travel to some place that we have never been before. At this point she said she would go without me, and that she was going to go on other trips without me as well during the summer. I think that the biggest problem is that she grew up as a spoiled rich kid, and always got her way. Well, we all know that we can not always have our way. By the way, I am the primary means of support. I am really trying to apply the principles from MB, but it is hard when the other person keeps throwing bombs at me and does not try to work at it. At least I can come here and get some input and ideas from all the good people on the boards. I have also looked into Alanon, and it has helped me tremendously. they are a great bunch of people as well. I will provide updates as things progress. At this time though, things are not looking too good. Bye for now.

This is all too familiar. At one time I was a bartender and I learned so much about human nature!Being that I am a woman I "presumed" that more men cheat than women.WRONG!While working at a bar, I was shocked to notice how many married women would come in together and pair up chatting with men and leave with them.Certainly not all of them had affairs,some would go to breakfast or coffee, some would be kissing in a car in the parking lot, but some were completely unfaithful. I am not trying to scare you, but I know personally that any woman at any age if shes not too over weight, married or not can easily and probobly will get approached by men. It's as though the men presume the wife left the husband at home for that reason or they feel that the woman is neglected by her husband and they're ready to "pick up the pieces".
I'm going to give you some unorthidox advice based on my experience as a former bartender, a woman who has been in a bar without my husband and one who has had many girlfriends over the years that fit this topic.Here goes...
Most married women who go to the bar without their husbands are looking for excitement or attention, not just to chat with the girls. There are a few who aren't. Those women do not do their hair or fix themselves up and they don't stay long-they go directly home and early. If your wife doesn't pay attention to what she looks like and is there for less than an hour, you probobly don't have to worry, but if not, you should be worried. Alcohol is a drug that changes your perception, your values ect..I can HONESTLY say that I have seen very upright people with families that would never stray literally ruin their lives(and their marriages and families) by just ONE wrong turn.Bar life is a differant world where rules just don't seem to apply. There is lots of laughing and joking in a bar, but let's face it,it's often just an ugly breeding ground for sin where the innocent aren't for very long. Talk to your wife about what kind of wife she wants to be and if she is more committed to you and her daughter or just friends. Maybe she likes excitment and attention. That DOESN'T make her a bad woman but that DOES mean that a "nice" approach to this probobly will only bore her.You may have to get MAD. I don't mean swear, scream,or break things but be a take charge kind of guy. Have you ever noticed that some woman really don't want everything their way? Why do so many women wait for the jerk that won,t call? Or fall for the bum that won't pay for dinner and is unfaithful? Don't become those men, but maybe you should start making her wonder what you're thinking about, doing etc. But don't do any thing "wrong". Read Dr. James Dobson's book "Love Must Be Tough". This is probobly not a popular approach but most women don't like a man that they can walk on. By sitting at home while she's in a bar, your not looking out for her best interests or you're own. Good luck !

I agree with the other posters in that it's time to take the bull by the horns, so to speak. However, you want a long-term fix, not more upset.

Try AGAIN to interest her in MB. Discuss the concepts. Print out the LB and EN Questionnaires and then share your responses. The point of marriage is for BOTH spouses to be happy...mutually...not at each other's expense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My question is this, at what point do I say enough is enough?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When that is how you feel, but it's important how you word it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At what point do I say my EN's are more important than hers?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Never! Unless you want to paint yourself as selfish as you feel she's being. Not a good lesson.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have printed the MB concepts and tried to get her to read them to no avail, because she feels that my ideas about marriage are abnormal and I am the problem.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would she be willing to attend marriage counseling with you if she understood you are as unhappy as she is, and you wish to find ways for BOTH of you to meet each other's needs and communicate better? I think some phone sessions with the Harleys would be extremely helpful. Hey, maybe you ARE the problem (THAT'll get her interested) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , but I'm willing to bet when you both learn better communication skills and start meeting each other's needs these problems can be ironed out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How does one work on rebuilding the marriage when the other believes they do no wrong?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's the key. By working on ONESELF. Who's the only person you can change or control? YOU! And by being a better person you pave the way for your W to follow suit. People learn by good, AND bad, example, so give her good examples. I don't mean being a doormat. I mean by learning to communicate with her better. Become a good listener. Present your feelings in a non-lovebusting way. And always remember, her feelings ARE as important as yours.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She suggested that we go together, and she help her sister drive. I told her, you wouldnt help me drive when we went to florida and that I had to drive 16 hours non-stop when we went.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You lovebusted. See it? Your W wanted to discuss helping her sister move. Your comment back was probably taken either as angry outburst or a disrespectful judgment, or both.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also told her, the way the current economic climate is, it would not be a good time for me to take time off from work. Good jobs are hard to come by right now, and I do not want to take any chances of losing my job at this time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be careful - the way you present your feelings and opinions may come across as knowing better than your W. She may be taking offense to the WAY you are presenting your feelings. Your response was logical, and indeed, does make a lot of sense. Just remember...feelings are very important. And of course she wants to help her sister. The goal is to brainstorm how to fulfill each other's needs. If helping with the actual move is not exactly convenient or even possible, are there OTHER ways you might help or at least plan a visit soon? Try to end conversastions on a positive note.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also told her that I would rather use the time off to do something fun and travel to some place that we have never been before.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was a good presentation of your wishes. However, the timing was a little awry, and took the focus off what your W was really requesting - to help her sister. What about what SHE wants? Hmm? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lovebusters are: Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, Angry Outbursts, Annoying Habits, Independent Behavior and Dishonesty. I would suggest you begin working on eliminating them in your conversations.

Read again how to negotiate. You want your W to have more regard for your feelings. VERY understandable. But you cannot sacrifice hers FOR yours, just as she should not be sacrificing yours for hers! Does that make sense?

I think your cause would be greater served by practicing respectful persuasion. As the old saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Can you think of ways to get your thoughts across without her feeling you aren't considering hers? Think about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks Lucks, You seem to be so right on so many issues. I have decided to give in and take the time off and drive to Florida. I figure that I can at least get a vacation out of the conflict. The only thing that is troublesome is, the day I said ok to the trip, the girls night out issue reared its head again. It seems as though no matter what I do, I keep being tested as to how far I can be pushed. Give an inch and lose a mile. But I will keep working on my own issues that will make me a better person, it cant hurt. As far as counseling goes, it would be ok for her as long as my issues and problems were being pointed out. The minute hers would be pointed out, she would get mad and say counseling wont work and that would be the end of it.(very stubborn person) Only time will tell, how this is going to play out. It is a good thing that I am a patient man. I will keep plugging away, and hope for the best. The thoughts and ideas of everyone on this board, have helped to open my eyes a little, and help me be a little more open minded. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But at this point I am still alone on the issues. I am still the one that is always in the wrong.

Just an update on the Florida trip. We spent 2 weeks in Florida. Only had one blowout. Spent most of the 2 weeks on the beach and relaxed quite a bit. Other than being with the in-laws for 2 weeks, it was pretty enjoyable. I hope that things will continue to get better.

I'd say thumbs down. Married people at a bar is not a good sign unless it a rare event (say every six months or for a specific event). My wife gave me the same line, I saw your post and had to respond. Right now we are facing a really tough time as she had an affair. It all stemmed from going out with her girlfriends at a bar. What she failed to tell me is her girlfriends male friends happened to show up too. I won't go into my details but you should push the issue and invite yourself to go. Why on earth would a woman not want her husband around at a bar scene? I'd insist on it. Have you ever been bar hopping? Get the names of some of the clubs she hangs out at and go there by yourself. WATCH WHAT GOES ON THERE AT THESE BARS and ask yourself if you are being unreasonble asking to participate in this event. I could be totally wrong about your situation and I may be biased, but why take a chance? You need to find out what it is she is really after here....

Well now, it has not even been a week since we returned from Florida and the girls night out has already reared it's ugly head again tonight. What did I do? Nothing! I have just realized that there is nothing that I can do about it, and why start a fight. So, away she went to the bar. I have come to the conclusion that I need to numb myself from the situation or it is going to ruin my health. I used to think that she was the most important person in my life but, I have figured out that I need to worry about me and not let things bother me because I am the most important person in my life. Other people will come and go from our lives but, all we really have is ourselves when it is all said and done. I realize that this is not very Marriage Building but, I do not know what else to do. This thing is tearing me up inside. She does not care about my emotional needs at this point and told me that she is going to do whatever she wants. What can a man say to a comment like that? Nothing I guess. She also said "What do you want me to tell the girls, I cant go! My husband wont let me" I said no, tell them that you would prefer not to go to the bar without your husband. At that point she said " I am not going to tell them that" At that statement I realized that she is not as committed to our marriage as I am. Before we met, I use to go to the bar. After we met I have never been to the bar without her because I truly believe that a married person does not belong in the bar. At this point I am ready to give up. I am sorry about rambling on, and thanks to all for reading.

What Now:

I think you hit the nail on the head. Your wife is simply not committed to your marriage and not committed to a sincere and respectful relationship. Her responses to you clearly shows she is quite a selfish woman who cares very little for your feelings. She really strikes me as a user. I think you can do a lot better. Good luck.

I don't know how you can get her to understand this, but you do need too and soon. My W had a girls night out with her best friend. They went to a particular bar and that's when that SOB from her past sleazed his way into our life. She had an A with him and my life has never been the same. Take it from me... I used to go to bars all the time, until I got sick and had to quit drinking, and I can tell you for every guy who is there just to drink with his buds, there are hundreds there to pick up chicks, and they don't give a Rats A** if she married or not. Some even find that more interesting. Nothing I repeat nothing good can come from a married person going to a bar without their spouse, only misery will come from this. You have it on great authority. My W still sees her best friend, but now they stay at home for their get together and that may be an alternative.

Whatnow, I am in a VERY similar situation. I am young, but I fully and wholeheartedly agree with you; a person should not go to a bar without their spouse. Period. My husband often frequents bars with his single buddies (everything from dance clubs to strip clubs..."just to play pool"...please), while I am left home with the baby. I have not gone out without him since over a year ago, and that was the deciding moment for me that I wanted to work on this relationship and fix our problems. Up until then, he didn't go out, but about 6 months after he turned 21, all he** broke loose. We went through a lot these past few months, but he got into the habit of going out VERY often (several times a week) without calling to let me know he was going, where he was going, or when he'd be home. We have been doing better, until recently, when he's started pulling the same old stuff again. Now though, though I tell him how much it hurts me that he does this, he still goes.

I know he doesn't see his friends all that much. But at the same time, it doesn't bother me when they just go drive around or hang out at someone's place. Like you, it's the bars that drive me crazy. I KNOW there are women out there that are just as bad as men, and are on the prowl for a guy, with or without a ring on his finger. And when there's alcohol involved, I believe even the strongest man would have trouble denying a gorgeous woman. Anything can happen, especially hanging out with his SINGLE buddies at these bars. Dance clubs. I don't understand why he doesn't want me with him.

The fact that we are young, though, makes me wonder if he's just trying to enjoy his youth a bit before committing completely. While I'm perfectly content being married with a child, I have a feeling he feels as though he's missed out on a lot. What makes it harder is he doesn't want to talk about it, so I really don't know what's going through his head.

He was also raised in a situation where he had to watch his adult family members come home drunk from bars, he's even had to drive illegally (too young) to pick up his drunk dad a couple of times. I, on the other hand, was raised by parents who have been married for 22 years and NEVER let us see them drunk.....and if they went out, they ALWAYS went together. Maybe that's why our opinions are so different. He thinks it's okay, because that's the way he was raised. I don't, because I wasn't raised that way. And it's a cycle of his that I would like to stop with him, so as not to pass it on to our son.

I would love to go out with him sometimes--God knows I need the break! But I wish he would have enough respect for me to either 1) not go, or 2)invite me along. Anyways, I'm right there with ya, and agree with pretty much everything that's been said regarding this subject. I didn't realize this was such a problem for so many people. It's good to know I'm not alone. Good luck with your wife...I hope she realizes what she's doing to you.

h-21
w-21
married 14 months
2 sons: 1 angel, 1 two months
separated in May
started over in June
continually working on it

I go out with my work buddies every Wednesday after work for beers. I did it before I met my wife, and I will continue to do it until I die or move. There are too many people that are hung up about their spouses going out to bars or whatever. The bottom line is that if your spouse is going to cheat on you there is nothing you can do aboutit anyway so why worry. And if you are worried that a "girls or guys night out" is going to result in your spouse doing something bad then you have bigger fish to fry my friends. Trying to control where your spouse goes every once in awhile to slam a few pops with the fellas will only foster feelings of mistrust and suspicion.

Hello DomNAidensMomma,

It is good to know that I am not the only one who struggles with this issue. Some times I feel so alone on this issue, But this site has helped me alot. It is unfortunate that I or others get into this situation. I too was raised in an family where the parents always went out together and avoided letting the kids see them drunk. I agree with you about how a person is raised. I dont agree with the last post though. If a person feels that because they have always done something, it makes it okay to do it. I would consider that to be a self centered statement and not very marriage minded. Just my opinion. I will keep going on what I believe.

Hi Whatnow....

Yeah, that last post was the kind of thinking that ENDS marriages and elicits affairs, don't you think? I can't even begin to describe where I disagree with it....let's just say the whole thing. It IS very selfish and NOT very marriage minded...this person is married? Wow. I guess some people are different. Whatever works for them I guess.

I am a woman and I know first hand that something that starts out "innocent" can lead to trouble. We had annual work parties where we met a local bar. One year, a conversation between myself and a co-worker got a little personal. The next year, the conversation led to kissing and thank God, there wasn't a next year. I never had any intention of being unfaithful to my husband, but sometimes things just get out of control.

I've also gone out with neighbors for a girls' night out and have seen what happens - this time not with me, but with my neighbors. It doesn't seem to matter much if we're married or not.

Even if your wife is going out with her friends with the "best intentions" to stay faithful - I think we all know that guys sometimes have a way of finding our weak spot and using it to their advantage. Some of us are stronger than others, but when you add alcohol to the mix, it just seems downright dangerous to me.

My marriage is in crisis, partly due to this incident. If your W is committed to you, then she would not do something that she knows beforehand hurts you.

Just my two cents from making the same mistake.....

It has been quite some time since I have posted but, I figure I will give a little update. The struggle has continued for about 3 years, but it is getting a little better. But it was not me that was able to make things better. It was her son. He finally came out and told her that he does not like the way that she is when she has been drinking. The typical out of the mouth of babes. They do not lie. Well, she now seems to have a different outlook on things since then. I did get a little bit tough about things as well. I have told her that if she continues to go out and get drunk on a regular basis, I will be contacting my attorney. I stated that the same things that she is doing to me, are the same reasons that I ended my last relationship. I guess that some times you just need to take a stand and stick with it. It is a shame that it has to be this way. At the same time, I have learned to take a more relaxed approach to things as well. I figure that I am not going to kill myself by worrying all of the time and being all stressed out. We all have enough stress in our day to day lives, why let someone else compound it. Life is only once! I will pop back and give further updates. One thing that I have definately learned through all of this is, a person has to follow the courage of their convictions! If I follow this, and do not deviate, I will prove that I am a man of my word. And so far it seems to work.