Yes counseling made me take a harder look at myself. My counselor would call me out on the things I did. In the beginning it was hard to accept. Kind of like when you let your wife know that her jealousy is hurtful because its not true.... I felt that I was justified in my actions...But I never really focused on the consequences. Like I said I've been in a few relationships before this man that I am engaged too. I beleive that I drove them away with my way of being. They too felt closed in and hurt by my words. They felt that they could do nothing that would make me happy.

I think that it was those experiences that taught me more about myself. Knowing what not..Is knowing what not to do. I recognize the pattern so I will try to avoid it as much as possible.

I also realized that I needed to put more trust in my fiance. I can't blame him if there is temptation out there. There will always be. she may have to realize that there are things beyond her control and she has to learn to give in and realize that when its done and over...you will still be at her side.

Q

<small>[ November 04, 2003, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Querida ]</small>

Dear Alex,

Your OMG, at your wife is expressing love, through jealousy, could be canged to "Thanks for expressing your love for me honey, can you think of any additional ways, that might be more direct fo me? How about A, B or C?"

This is most of a recent post I made to Danielle V, Under Resolving Conflict.


START
One thing that comes to mind is under Negotiations, a post by TOOMUCHCOFFEEMAN, is 180 Degree Divorce Busters. One of the ideas there is not to check on your spouse. Reading the 180 Degree Concepts may give you some positive ideas.

A direct statement of a request is sometimes helpful in a marriage. The request that comes to mind is for her to say to him, "Honey, I want you to know that I am being fathful to you. I want you to feel comfortable about my being true to you. I understand that jeoulusy is part of love, and I appreciate your showing your love for me through expressions of concern about anything that may indicate anything tending about temptation. But I feel you are really anxious about my being true. How can I do better at giving you a more comfortable feeling. I feel that I am not doing a good job at letting you know that I am true to you, because you seem so up tight about it. Really, you are so nervous, that it makes me a little uncomfortable. Please think of what I can do to make you feel more comfortable about letting you know that I am being true to you, so we can both be more comfortable
END OF POST TO DANIELLE V

Perhaps we can work on some approaches and tones of voice, for the time when you feel uncomfortable with your wife's jealousy.

Trying to say that the standared that your wife applies to you, is the same standard that should apply to her, has some logic to it. However, a better logic, is "If you are feeling my love is inadequate, then let me show you some love." Find some way that is pleasing to her, to show your love for your wife. ask her, "How can I better show you my love? How can I give you more conficence in my love?"

Be ready to interrpt anything you are doing. As you say, look away form the TV. When you start to watch a movie on TV, then wreite down the title, so you already plan to be interrupted, and later go rent the movie, to finish the part you missed. Be ready to be happy about being interrupted. Pre-plan some ways to show your love. Have a list of ways to show your love, and keep adding on to the ways, when she displays jeoulousy, display love.

Have other methods ready also. A good salesman has a file in which he keeps a list of jokes. Start collecting jokes to use with your wife, to make her laugh. It takes practice to tell a joke so peole laugh.

Have a listing of things to be angry about. "Boy, what really makes me angry is these home immprovement contractors. They take your money, take forever to fix your house, then they do it wrong." of "That reminds me, that today, a guy came across three lanes to cut in front of me, then slammed on his brakes, to make a right turn, as soon as he got in my lane. I had to slam on my brakes. I was so MADD!!!"

Post some phraseology.

What helps, or what seems worse?

Do you have a place to keep a list of phrases for differnet occasions? I keep Two large manilla enevelopes at work. Inside, is 8-1/2" X 11" paper, with one piece folded in half, keeping 5 or 10 pages together. I write the subject on the bottom of the folded holder page, and I spread out the stacks of papers, so I can see each title. I have maybe 30 titles. I have prepared phrases and stratgegies for any situation that seems to irritte me. I take responsibility for changing what irritates me. I have a hadicapped fellow who I telephone, who works with me for an hourly rate, and I go over the situations, and create more phrases to try, and try them, and come back to my list, to try to improve things.

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling.

<small>[ November 04, 2003, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

My head is a mess now. I told my wife that we need counseling last night after another argument(although I kept my tone low and let her get it out). We had a fire drill at work and she wanted to know how many women came out of the building and what they looked like. I could not give her an honest answer because I truly did not know. I wasn't paying that much attention and could have cared less. She didn't believe me and accused me of hiding something. She finally concluded that there was some hot chick there and I didn't want to tell her. After that it led to "I must be having an affair". I can only offer her different ways of showing me her love so much. It just doesn't seem to get through. It always comes back to me, I have shown her enough affection, etc... It's like the only way she will stop is if I tell her I am sorry and that I will be better. Which in turn continues the viscious cycle.

Anyway I lost my train of thought. She does not want to go to counseling at all. She feels like she will be attacked and does not want to listen to it. I tried explaining that this was not the case. In the end she thought it would be better if we split up (I had know idea the marriage was on such a thin wire). Although she said this, she still asked me why I was not being caring towards her. Almost like a game. I am tired of this. I offered help for the marriage and she turned it down. She's the one who wants me to change and the marriage to change, but at the same time wants to keep the status quo it seems. I don't know. She still said this morning we probably need to split and that it was up to me. Although she said it was a mistake for us to get married in the first place. Its like if I agreed the world would come to an end, but if I disagree nothing will change it seems.

Just a thought - copy your post and our responses and show it to her. Maybe she'll realize how twisted and insecure she is, and see that she needs immediate help. Probably not, you will likely be acused of manipulation, domineering, control............. My heart goes out to you as even my W never got that bad.

I'm not sure who I feel worse for, her or me. I can't imagine the pain and turmoil she must be going through. I actually do think she may be better off without me. It seems having a man in her life causes great consternation.

Dear Alex,

Are you following the Love Diet? Seems like your wife may be palying you for some more attention.

When my wife gets off on a tangent, I will change the subject. Do you have a list of topics to talk about, if she gets off on a tangent?

You might practice answering quesitions quickly, with ranges of info, so that it does not give the impression that you are hiding something.

W. How many women wen out on the fire drill?

H. Somewhere between 5 or 20, I was more concerned about getting back to my work that got interrupted.

W. What did they look like?

H. Some were white, some wer oriental, some were African American. I recall a blue dress and an white dress. What are we having for dinner? Can I help you fix anything?

W. I think you are hiding an affair.

H. I'm not having an afair. I am trying to be a better husband for you. What wouild you like me to improve? What would you like me to change? What do you wnat me to leave unchanged? What would you like me to make disappear? How can we re-arraange the furniture to make the house more comforable?

When you were calm about the affair question, your wife started talking divorce, to see if she could get a rise out of you. My reading is for you to find more ways to give her attention. Look ate 180 Degree Divorce Busters, also

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 05, 2003, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

I don't beleive that she wants to split up with you. I beleive she is testinmg you to see if you agree. If you wold have said yes to it..I'm sure she would have accused you even faster of having someone else.

You may want to call her bluff and tell her that being apart may be a good idea. Only because the constant accusations and jealousy is unbearable. You may want to tell her that you wont come back until she agrees to change something. Let her know you love her but that you dont want to live this way.

She is being verbally abusive and you are concerning yourself too much with her feelings...how about yours? Take it from me...If you dont allow her to do it to you....she wont. If she values your marriage...she will feel it when you arent around and appreciate the man that you are.

She doesnt want to do do anything? then she is compromising your feelings. You shouldnt have to compromise your integrity because she likes living like this. You make a choice and be firm...she'll get it.

Q

Dear Q,

Your words better express much of what I was trying to say to Alex. Thanks for the woman's touch.

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 05, 2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Hello. I believe you are right she is looking for more attention. We talked quite a bit last night (talking not fighting what a new concept, at least I've still got my sense of humor), I told her we can beat this if we both try. She said she just doesn't feel loved anymore and that I haven't shown her the same emotions as before the honeymoon(2 years ago). She still doesn't want to go to counseling for fear of being attacked or the counselor telling her that men are going to be men, they are more visual, and she doesn't agree with that and never will. She thinks that if I admit to knowing the difference between an attractive and unattractive woman then I am checking them out. She said that she states what most women feel but keep to themselves. I'm not sure if I agree with this logic. If I got upset everytime I thought she was looking (not ogling) at an attractive man (which I know happens) I would go insane. I feel like this type of relationship fosters secrets, I think more so on her part because I don't interrigate her. If she thought a guy was attractive I would rather her be able to tell me, than keep it from me because its been deemed wrong on my part. Interesting, I think I'm starting to answer a lot of my own questions. I feel a lot better posting here. You guys are really helping a lot. Thank you.

Are you sure you still love her?

Her words - you don't love me as before - could mean:
she feels your love is going away
or
she doesn't want to change THAT kind of love (you had at the beginning) when we're full of excitement, passion, no monotony...

rejecting counselling?
maybe because you'd go there to solve HER problem?

do you really hear her when telling you 'I cannot feel your love'?
I mean - do you really try that she feels it?

or - can she if it isn't there (as before)?

I'd like her to read this and write her version of this conflicts...

Are you sure you still love her?

Her words - you don't love me as before - could mean:
she feels your love is going away
or
she doesn't want to change THAT kind of love (you had at the beginning) when we're full of excitement, passion, no monotony...

rejecting counselling?
maybe because you'd go there to solve HER problem?

do you really hear her when telling you 'I cannot feel your love'?
I mean - do you really try that she feels it?

or - can she if it isn't there (as before)?

I'd like her to read this and write her version of this conflicts...

Yes I still love her. I always get a warm feeling when I think of the good times we spend together. I want to grow old with her. I know that despite our obstacles, we do work well together.

I believe she wanted the passion to always be the way it was in the beginning. Yes.

I know she feels this way. I have tried to explain to her that we both have different things that need to be addressed in an objective environment. I told her I have no intention of going in there and trying to fix her. I just want to talk in a comfortable environment. It would be with a pastor in our church who is supposed to be very good. I have issues and have never denied it.

I believe her when she says she cannot feel it. That is why I would like for both of us to go to MC. It is a cycle we have entered and I want to get out of it.

Her version would probably be different these are my feelings. She would be very upset knowing that I have discussed this outside the box. I'm sure she probably has a forum or a confidant she talks with. This is why I believe a good neutral ground where we can talk would be best. These are huge issues that are going to take a lot of effort to work on.

Yes, again I do love my wife. As we speak I am giving her more attention(not forced), that she feels she hasn't received. We'll see...

Belonging - I understand your concern about her side of the story and agree that there are always two views. But, she isn't posting here, he is. He appears to be willing to address the issue instead of dancing around it.

alx - Don't allow W to blameshift her hangup onto you. If you are truthful about what you are telling us the issue is hers to solve or deny. You have close parallels to my situation so I can empathize. She will likely do all she can to convince any counselor that you are the root of her problems, and to portray you as uncaring, a roving eye, and manipulating. Have nothing of it and don't be discouraged. Insist she be accountable and face the sin of jealousy head on, acknowledge it as sin and controlling, and do whatever necessary to get past it. Don't give in to thoughts of condemnation and guilt. Hold your ground and show tough love. God be with you!

She makes mistake, that's obvious.
The more your 'awaying' (just my feeling), the more she's pushing and asking for love, and vice versa...

The easiest answer is &#8211; she&#8217;s so insecure, possessive and controlling&#8230;
And could be the most wrong answer&#8230;

Maybe she has a real reason to feel that way&#8230; you cannot admit it here, moreover to yourself, or you are not aware of it at all&#8230; more possibilities&#8230;

Anyway&#8230; You know she'd be upset but still you had to post here for you have your needs as well, correct?

What I'd like you to do is to answer some questions (answer truly to yourself):

If she wasn't like this when you were dating and in the first couple of months/years when married!&#8230;
And I have feeling she wasn't like this (correct?)&#8230;
&#8230;So &#8211;

You also admit having some issues... what are they?
What about your loyalty, honesty, sincerity&#8230;?
Does she trust you? If not, what&#8217;s happened that she lost it?

Also, something must have happened that she stopped feeling your love.
What&#8217;s about your loyalty? (Were you on her side when she expected/was logical to be?)

Btw, how many evenings out you had with your friends (before), and how many you want now (and why)?

Of course, HPKeeper...
BUT
knowing one side of story makes encouraging it 'by default'... and that can cause some negative consequences for the side we cannot see... e.i. for both of them in this case...

or - to be self-critical as much as we can...

Interesting that you say sin. Our pastor preached about the sin of jealousy this past Sunday. You're right, I have to be careful of taking the blame. I get angry with myself, because I'm afraid to face it head for fear of being alone if she does not want to address it. She never seems to be happy unless she is with her friends or co-workers(at least on the outside). Which tells me her insecurities are tearing her apart. I mean there has got to be things that she would like to do but avoids them because of me. Certain movies or outings with friends(that she's jealous of) we avoid because she doesn't want me to fall prey to. I would think that deep down she may hold that against me. Talk about a double edged sword.

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but she is very sex oriented. How should I say... she has a strong libido. She had quite a few relationships before she met me in between her first marriage and myself. She and her mom used to talk about men and there different traits quite openly and she's quick to ask me a question about the male anatomy, but I can't even acknowledge women have breasts. I don't know how this fits in but it bugs me. She has said that her past was a big mistake and she regrets it.

BTN. I understand where you are coming from. I look at my posts and I feel like I've been beating up on her and she's not able to defend herself. The jealousy was there before the marriage. As I stated way back in the posts it should have been addressed then before we got married. I don't show emotions like I should. Runs in my family, not an excuse, but I am aware of it. I tell her everyday that I love her, but I don't express it well enough.

Do I side with her? This is an interesting question. There have been times where I recognized both sides, and she wanted me to take her side completely. This occurred when dealing with my family. Not in front of them, but when she and I were talking. She and my sister tolerate each other. Two totaly different personalities. I have never taken someone elses side in front of her. I wouldn't do that. I almost punched out a fair worker who copted an attitude with her a few weeks ago.

I am very loyal. I am honest with her (there are repercussions as I have explained for being honest). I did have some money issues after we got married, which I know were hard and still are somewhat. But they are getting better. She does have very well paying job. Our two incomes are around six figures so I don't think this should be an issue. I am not the greatest with money, but am working to better myself. She is excellent with money. She can pinch better than anyone I have ever met. She is very giving when it comes to friends and relatives. She will always find a way to help people.

After I met her I avoided going out with friends unless she was present. That was my fault. I should have gone out, but she would get very upset if I wanted to do something with others. (my fingers are getting tired today) I take back about wanting to go to sports bars. I thought about that and don't think bars are a good idea. But a game of golf or something, yes I miss that.

I'm not stupid. I not going to run off and apply some bad advice to my situation. I know her, I know what the problems are. I am being very delicate with this. I do analyze both sides.

We need counseling.

My other issue is that I am not assertive enough and have always been somewhat of a pushover. My wife says I am too trusting.

As long as you (try to) see your own contribution to the problem, there is hope...
Hope your wife will do the same...

Good news. My wife called about setting up an appt. with a councelor. Definately a start in the right direction.

Great - now hold her to it. Accountability is very important here. Be very open and honest with the counselor and don't allow your W to sugarcoat the issue or blameshift. I'm praying for you both.

I posted this under new topic but the more I thought about it this sounds so much like my H and I, I thought it important to post it here. This very well could be us and in reading all of the post from alx1970 I find it difficult to believe that he is blameless in the way his wife feels, only because of my own experience. I decided this morning to come back into marriage builders for help. It's been way to long since I have been here and my problem with jealousy has not been any better in the last year. I read the post from alx1970 and I could be his wife. However, he says he has never given his wife any reason to be jealous. My husband on the other hand has. Before we were married I knew that at one time he had a sex addiction, but he was open and honest about it from the beginning. Almost 2 years ago I found that he was searching and visiting escort service websites. I went belistic. You see I was secure in our relationship. He always put me on a pedestal and I thought he was my knight and shining armor. He pulled the rug out from underneath me. He claims he didn't do anything, but I found a post that he was inquiring on how to hide money from his SO. He says he never made that post. He has never admitted that he did anything wrong. You see, I was not insecure or jealous before this happened. We went through counseling for awhile and I think it would have helped me if he would be honest and just admit what he did. But, he says he will never admit he did anything because he didn't. I feel betrayed and it has detroyed my self-esteem. We have since moved to a new town and I really thought that it would help. I thought time would heal. But, I think I am worse. I try so hard not to be jealous but am always wondering if he is with another women. I know he loves me and if it weren't for that I would have divorced when this first happened. I want to save this marriage and am terribly afraid that I am driving him away with my constant questions. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.