gm & frankie,<BR>It is not moral. However, it all has to come true because it has been prophesied that things will become worse than they are now. I am a practicing Christian. I pray that all those who don't know Jesus as their Lord and Savior get to know Him before you don't have a choice. I wouldn't want to be like those who wanted to get on the ark after the doors were shut and it began to rain.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

cuckold is spelled C-U-C-K-O-L-D.

Hey y'all, wex is right: it is a matter of CONSENTING ADULTS. GM consented, and if he is cool with it, that's fine. <BR>Most of us, if not the rest of us, DID NOT CONSENT to our spouses having relationships with others, we are FORCED to deal with it, and it HURTS. <BR>Y'all who said there is a difference between swinging and cheating are right on the mark. <P>------------------<BR>for better of for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, till death do us part.<P>

Can y'all say Narcissistic????

<BR>Burnt butt eyebrows and hair not withstanding...dunno whether I am the cat or the pigeons...replies are divided...lol<P>Thank you for all your views.<BR>Answering some of your posts.<P>Nope<BR>No drugs ...No alcohol...neither W or I drink an never taken no drugs <BR>No religion (yes believe in God but mine must be different to some of yours)<BR>No judgement whether right or wrong jus followed what I felt and believed was right for me and for my marriage to survive. <BR>This wasnt about sex, it was about what I wanted more, to live with her or without her.<P>Yes<BR>I am in the right forum. I am building my marriage how I see fit and its working out better than a lot I see in here and around me with friends and aquaintances so far.<P>I did go through the hurt pain of infidelity whether it is classed as swinging or not. <P>Was not all 3 sums she sometimes goes and went to him alone with my approval and support.<P>I made a calculated informed decision about what I would do and its worked out fine so far.<BR>Can you say the same for your marriage ? Over 50% end in divorce,is that marriage building..?? <BR>I am still in my marriage and its building nicely thats why I am in this forum and have a right to be!!!!!!!!!!!This is what this forum is supposed to be about isnt it ??? building marriages not destroying them??? <BR>I am building mine not looking for divorce.!!!!My methods are just different to some of yours thats all.<P>Why should marriages be built ONLY in the way that other people think they should? Whats wrong with making decisions based on what you feel and think rather than what others think you should?? <P>Moral codes to me are a lot of baloney, jus someone always tryin to control others because of their own fears or other rubbish.!<P>Sheba...<P>My W wanted to experience her total sexuality and keep her marriage intact if that was possible. <BR>Wanted to experience what she never did get to experience as a girl, she went from her father to me just as the moral codes of the day said she should.<BR>She was 17 when she fell pregnant to me I was 19 we married a short time later.<P>Despite how this might look she did care for me deeply and loves me truly. She is level headed strong willed intelligent and wise, is a good mother and wife and I could wish for no better.<P>I believe she loves me more now than she ever did and is very grateful to have had that experience within the bounds of our marriage.<BR>We do talk a lot about how we feel and how we are affected by actions in our marriage and care how the other is.<P>I am not sure if she would have left me to do it or just would have gone an dun it without telling me.<BR>I did not want to take that risk and did not want to lose her either, so I did what I did and faced the danger of losing her totally. Now I trust her more now than I ever did... and although there are no guarantees in life I have more faith now than I ever did that our marriage will survive till death do us part.<P>I am no expert on sex, and marriage, and have no recommendations for anyone else all I know is that this is working for us.<P>I posted it here cos I never saw anyone post here about how their marriage could be building and working well with non exclusive sex.<P>Infidelity to me is when one partner has sex alone with someone other than their married spouse. <BR>Swinging is when there are more than one couple.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>If here is the only place I can be...now must be the only time I can have...GM<BR>

Sir Hurts a Lot,<BR>Sorry wasnt ignoring your question. Forgot to add my answer is all.<P>I am her lover have always been and will always be. Just because she has another lover does not exclude me. Why should it.?<P>I am also some of the things he could never be, and have things with her he could never have.(Because of the way her and I are with each other)<P>Her best friend.<BR>Her confidant.<BR>Her mentor.<BR>The father of her children.<BR>Her playmate.<BR>Family.<BR>History.<BR>Meaningful time.<BR>The one she shares more than just her body with.<BR>The one she chooses to share her life with.<P>My thoughts on God.<P>If religion is acceptable in all this then should Mormons be cast to the devil for having more than one wife.? And all other religions that have similar doctrines.<P>If God sits on top of a mountain does he care what path his children take to get to him.? Does he say you can only take one path to get to the top.? That path being Catholic? Anglican? Prespertyrian? Baptist? Mormon? or are they all wrong? should it be Hindu? Bhuddist?<BR>My God encourages all children to take whatever path brings them to him, without judgement, without fear, without chastisment, he gave us free will and unconditional love. UNCONDITIONAL being the operative word.<P><P>------------------<BR>If here is the only place I can be...now must be the only time I can have...GM<BR>

GM -<P>Thanks for replying.<P>I'm a little uncertain if this means that it is something you did for a while for the experience your wife wanted or if this is an ongoing enhancement to the marriage. Could you clarify that for me? <P>Do you know if this fulfilled an emotional need not just for your wife but for yourself? <P>What were the reasons that this helped?<BR>For example - sexual rut, relief of self-esteem issues, excitement (and what kind), pleasure without the intensity of intimacy,etc.<P>I am curious because the people my H associates with now are very amorous and think nothing of infidelity. Most of them do their escapades without the permission or participation of their spouse/significant others. Would it be the way they look at sex itself or does intimacy play a roll in this at all.<P>Thank you for helping me understand this!!!<P>Sheba<p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited July 30, 1999).]

Sheba, thank you for your curiosity and questions. Not sure I can answer but give my best shot.<P>After the first roller coaster ride of hurt pain loss of esteem feeling and not worth a spit, we did get down to some deep talk on how long this should go on for, and accepted we would both know when it was over...<P>It has enhanced our marriage no end. Enhanced our sex life greatly. Enhanced our communication. Made us both look at ourselves deeply. Made us question society moral standards, our consciences, urges, direction, what we wanted in life our future together and in general and considered as many of its possible endings but never allowed fear of the future to rule over us.<P>Right now neither of us is chasing for it to end or to continue. <BR>We will jus know when the time is right to end it if and when, meanwhile it continues to bring excitement fun joy pleasure and peace into our lives. <P>It has a special niceness and quality about it that no one else could understand, guess having the right lover helps. Friendship between the three first, being lover second. <P>There are no one night stands, there are no multiple partners although she has had 4 lovers in 3 years looking for the right one. We believe this is the right one and has been her lover for 9 months now. <P>She will not go off and have sex with him without my knowledge and acceptance even when I am miles away from her in another town or country ...she does not want to do it at all now without my being ok about it, never really did right from the start I think. It was just my fear that she might that made my decision.<P>It certainly fulfilled an emotional need for her and for me too I think, reading some of cossies early posts about this made me see my own fears of intimacy and how by watching someone else make love to her that somehow I felt safe to love her at a distance, sorta like protecting myself from being hurt in a way. <P>Watching her with him is extremely sexually exciting for me and fills me with great joy to see her enjoyment too.<P>Looking back yes I would say we were in a sexual rut, boredom with the same same etc...you can try all you like to spice up your sex life with romantic games and places but they dont last long.<P>The self esteem issue is also correct, she never had a good self image and always believed she was not attractive desirable beautiful sensual and all my saying so made no difference until her experience with lovers, now thats all changed and she glows. Its very rewarding for me to see it and a pleasure and joy to live with.<P>There is a certain intimacy with him but not the same as her intimacy with me. We have a history and we live together, so we have a depth that the relationship with him can never have, but we are all very happy with that and want to keep it that way.<P>He is very clear on what the relationship is and its what he wants too. It is a purely sexual relationship for both parties and we all respect and understand that. There is no romance such as dinners weekends away or anything of that nature and its not wanted by any of us either, so it remains a friendship between the 3 of us that includes sex.<P>To sum it up I would say that it is friendship first sexual pleasure and sharing second and intimacy down the list. Unlike what my W and I have in which intimacy is included in near everything we do together.<P>When I look at how it may have been and the peace I now feel I am thankful I chose to do it this way.<P>------------------<BR>If here is the only place I can be...now must be the only time I can have...GM<BR>

How could seeing your W being taken by<BR>another man be sexually stimulating for anyone? If you truly loved and cherished her, you would have never agreed to this nor could you have participated in, watched, or whatever else you do. Your morals are so screwed up, I know nothing I write here will make a difference. There's only one person who can make a difference in your life. Look to HIM. Reading posts like yours makes me look even more forward to Sunday church services. I rejoice in my decision to accept Jesus as my personal Savior, to provide a Christian home for my children and most of all, not to be like you.<P>And Wexwill, I think you should edit those filthy words from your post. I doubt Tempest would appreciate your synonyms for the male and female genitalia.<p>[This message has been edited by Egghead (edited July 31, 1999).]

Everyone -<P>My 2 cents worth -<P>I think that we are all too quick to judge others. Yes, we all have our own beliefs. And like someone said, the path to God may not be the same for all. <P>So, who are we to say what is right?<P>I've always said that about the different religions. I don't know about the sex issue. I only know that I've learned hard lessons about judging others. <P>I think it was probably hard to step out and be honest here about this situation, and that GM knew the responses would be mixed, but he trusted us enough to throw it out there. We should not judge, in my opinion. This is not a religious site, but a marriage building site. Everyone's idea of "marriage building" is, obviously, different. Let's listen and share, without judging from our own beliefs.<P>As for the words that were used in one response (I think we all know what I'm talking about), well, we've all heard them, right? And we are all adults, right? So it's not that big of a deal. I wouldn't want the site to be filled with that kind of talk, but it's not, so why make a big issue out of it. I think a lot of people need to mellow out.<P>Just as much as one person thinks having a threesome is a sinful act, another person thinks it enhances a marriage. Like I said, who are we to judge? Everyone has to answer for themselves in the end.<P>Let's all mellow a bit and get along. We're all here for the same purpose, building our marriages, we just all have to go about it in the way that works for us. <P>Isabelle

Dearest Egghead, <P>I promise you your children will not grow up like you....<BR>There is no God no Jesus no Sunday church gathering and no fervent praying that will save you from the enlightening teachings your children will bless you with. <BR>Hope you are up to the learning it is going to be very difficult for you, I will pray for your soul.<P>Many blessings..

Hi GM,<P>Thought I'd post to you as well. I'm a "veteran" here who hasn't posted much lately.<P>But, I'm a curious person who enjoys learning from other people. Yours is a very unusual situation. But, I think you knew that when you first posted on the Forum. I think you knew you were at risk to take some flak. I also respect you for taking the risk. I sense you're looking for "truth" here just as many of us are.<P>Having that said, I agree with K when he expresses concern about the long-term prospects for your relationship. I think you sense you're walking thru an emotional minefield. Perhaps the reason you're here?<P>As to whether you "belong" here, well, I'd say you have every right to be here as long as you follow the few rules of civility which we have. I sense you are truly trying to build your marriage into something better. But, clearly you've chosen a rather unique way of working on it. Not everyone here will be comfortable with your choice. And yes, some will not agree with its morality.<P>I think you'll continue to take some hits here if you choose to stay with us. Then again, you may learn a few things. There are some very good people here, people I've come to respect greatly for their opinions. We don't all think alike and that's the beauty of the Forum. Expression of many ideas.<P>So...in summary...my suggestion is, be patient, try to keep your perspective. You've chosen a difficult and high-risk mode. Whether it's on this Forum or in your marriage, I sense your strength's gonna be tested.<P> <P>------------------<BR>"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries of life disappear and life stands explained." Mark Twain, 1898.

To all:<P>I'm not one to deny someone their choice of lifestyle. I have my reservations about the morality of it all, as you can well see. However, marriage, in just about every culture, takes on some RELIGIOUS significance. The only SECULAR purpose for marriage (that I can think of) is inheritance rights. There are no tax advantages to being married anymore. <P>Think about WHY you got married in the first place. Was it just "the right thing to do" or did the vows MEAN something to you? If you aren't going to take your vows seriously, WHY TAKE THEM? If your only intent in getting married is to set up inheritance rights, I suggest that INSTEAD, you make out a will.<P>It flies in the FACE of the PURPOSE for marriage to spread yourself around to other people. Yeah, sex is fun. Yeah, sex feels good. Yeah, sometimes it gets a little mundane with the same person over and over again, but one of the REASONS you make a commitment to ONE person through holy matrimony is because you want to be with HIM/HER through good and bad times, through ups and downs, through fun and despair.<P>Any of you who condone extra-marital activity, swinging, etc., that's fine. For you, it works. But, don't expect that those of us who hold marriage SACRED to sit by and just "accept" it. I think it's a sin, and I think it's contributing to the moral decline of our society. Nobody will stand up and say "This is WRONG."<P>Enjoy yourselves. I hope everything works out for you in the long run, but I suspect that one way or another, those of you who live this lifestyle will pay for it.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

Hi GM,<P>Seems like I have come upon this post a little late...Wow!!!<P>I admire your courage honesty and viewpoint in bringing this into the light....and the honesty of replies you have got from everyone including the religious pious self righteous and those set in their ways of thinking....<P>Glad that its working for you and hope it continues to be all you wish it to be....<P>It does seem like you are on your own here..as there probably would not be too many people in here who would use that method of marriage building...? <P>Yet again who knows maybe there are but too afraid to come out and say so...?? <P>If it works and brings a stable and happy long lasting marriage maybe it should be recommended not condemned..?????<P>It always amazes me how people can consider sinful/obscene/offensive anything to do with.... sex outside marriage.... nudity in public....words that describe sexual organs in public.....and yet go buy toys for their kids that simulate fighting killing and violence against other human beings...????????? and will happily watch TV depicting violence and killing as entertainment....?????? and will watch movies on destruction of humans in blazing fireballs etc and enjoy it as great action....????????????????<P>And then still go pray on Sundays to God to save their souls and to save the souls they consider sinful because they have sex with someone not their spouse...???????? my goodness...????????? sex is sinful and killing is not..??????????? using the creative force that God gave us is sinful if not used according to what they believe...???? and yet if that person killed instead of using their sex in that way.. would be ok as long as its for entertainment...????????? sheeeesh...its no wonder our world is screwed up....its not morals that are screwed up...!!!!!!!<P>We have a world mentality that says on one hand that we are peace loving gentle caring honourable and consider life to be so precious that we must save as many lives as we can...?????? and have many humanitarian efforts operating trying to that.....<P>...and on the other hand we continue to build nuclear weapons for mass HUMAN destruction...have massive armies in every country trained to kill HUMANS (under the pretext its for defense only)....continue to manufacture guns rifles bombs mines....all to kill HUMANS...!!!!!!!!!!!and have the audacity to show the continuous killing of humans on screens as entertainment...!!!! and if thats not all..we even make replica toys of these destructive weapons for our kids to play with....??? what for..?? to make sure they have the same mentality as we have...????****groan**** when are we going to get things in perspective...????<P>Sex is not sinful...!!!!!!!!!! violence and the killing of human beings is....!!!!!!!!!!!<P>The human body carries a living God and when it gives to another human being in love pleasure and care how could this be considered sinful/disgraceful/offensive/obscene etc...????? to say this surely is to say God is offensive/obscene etc.....God is at eye level too.....<P>*climbing down from my pulpit* <P>Thats my 20 cents.....for the plate..? lol<P>cossie<P>------------------<BR>To know who you are is to see who I am....<P>

Cossie:<P>I wouldn't say that sex is sinful either, but sex outside the marriage IS sinful. Not because it is sex, but because it is the breaking of a solemn vow before God to "forsake all others." When you make the marriage commitment, you agree to love and give yourself completely to ONE person, your spouse. To break that promise IS a sin. Pure and simple. It is immoral.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

Dayam, I love a good argument!<P>Hey LS, I tried to find your email addy and couldn't seem to locate it. Would you post it here briefly so I could pick it up again? I've been wanting to send you stuff before, never got around it it.<P>Look for ya soon. Take care.

GM -<P>Thank you for answering my questions and if you're up to it - I have some more.<P>I appreciate your candor and I am a person who looks at all sides to understand people and the things they do.<P>How long have you and your wife been married? If I remember correctly, you were both in your late teens - is that correct?<P>I read in your profile that you two have gone through various affairs before discovering this set up that you have now. What was it that led you to the affairs? What was missing? Was it something within yourself?<P>Do you think that because you were both so young - you both had higher expectations of what married life would be like? Was it the setting in of the realities of life and it's day to day struggles that sent you both looking for something to offset it?<P>How do the affairs and now the one lover fit in with the marriage vows? You say you've had discussions of some deep stuff and how did you rationalize breaking those vows? This is one of the most perplexing things for me that I can't get past for for your situation or for my own.<P>I know that when my H began hopping around like a rabbit - all of his energies were pretty much focused on these activities and he didn't have much left to give to his normal homelife responsibilities let alone to our marriage. Is that part of what you want to accomplish? Does it somehow take you away from the pressures of your day to day life?<P>If so, isn't it just a way to run away?<P>How long can that go on? What about consequences? Have you seen any negativity with this at all?<P>Again, thank you for helping me to understand some of this. This is very different than my H in that it's mutual for you two. But I believe that the root causes behind it are probably quite similar.<P>I look forward to your response to my questions and anything else you might be able to add.<P>One thing I almost forgot - In your last reply, you had a contradiction so maybe you can clarify: You said that it's only sex with the lover but then you said that it is friendship first then sex. I'm a little confused on that.<P>Sheba

As with most issues here, our personal beliefs are clearly reflected in what we post. It always seems to boil down to what are belief or faith is in God and what He would consider right and wrong. <P>Cossie – It is completely obvious that your view of God is completely different than mine. In fact, those who don’t believe in God will disagree with your stance too. As Lonestar stated so eloquently, when we enter into marraiage we promise to forsake all others for our spouse. Many people fall and marriages are lost due to having sex with someone else. To recommend the behavior that GM and his wife practice to other marriages is inviting disaster and completly distrutive to rebuilding intimacy. I think you traveled way off base trying to draw a comparrison to swinging and building nuclear weapons. I think the moral decay in our society is obvious to most. Things that were taboo only a few years ago are now pushed as being normal. If God doesn’t send Jesus back soon, He’s going to have to apologize for Sodom and Gommorah. <P>SHA

Oh boy, what a topic. I am siding with K and LoneStar, I just can't see being commited in a marriage and introducing another party. I am FAR from being a prude (can't, grew up in the late 60's and 70's, been there, etc.) But whats the point of marriage? It should be sacred, and I am not a church going person. It should be a commitment for life to ONE person. Do what you like as a single, as long as no one gets hurt. No minors involved, etc. The thought of having my H with another sickens me. We were supposed to be bonded. I am sooooo tired of the "if it feels good, do it" attitude. This is NOT the message I want my son to see. I was so upset by this, I am not sure if you have children or not. Is this what your wife wants for them? Where is loyalty and dedication? OK, so shoot me for having old fashioned values. But I have known too many who have tried it the other way, and can't say any of them ended up happy. I want to be like my grandparents, and aunts and uncles who were married for 50 yrs and could still get a thrill out of each other.

To say I'm a little blown away would be an understatement. I think the most powerful thing many of us are missing with GM's situation is that he and his wife seem to have an honesty in their relationship that is missing in many of ours. It makes no diffrence if you agree or disagree with the path of marriage chosen here what seems to matter is happiness and a peace in marriage that many of us do not have. I would have been grateful had my H come to me and said "hon I want to have an affair" then like GM I would have been presented with a choice. The problem many of us have is that there was no honest communication and now that there has been an affair we are trying to get honest communication. One question I keep asking myself is...I am staying with a man who has had an affair and I am willing to forgive does that send a message to him that I will always forgive and if so why be honest on the front end when you will be forgiven in the end. I think that if a relationship has honesty and open communication it has a chance to thrive just as it sounds like GM's is doing. He could lose in the long run but he is satified here and now and I'll bet if it comes unraveled it won't hit him like the ton of bricks we all felt landing in our chests when the lies were dicovered and the truth or what little of the truth we are getting came out. I'm rambling but the bottom line for me is honesty I would rather be told the truth of the feelings my H had before he became emotionally involved then to have found out the way I did. I'm not for swinging myself but I am all for the hoesty GM and his wife seem to have.