\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

Bless you. You are going through alot. Let me share with you what my counselor asked my h and I to do: we had to write down all the things that our had done that hurt us. I had 2 pages, he had only a few items (not that I wasn't that bad only that he couldn't write down definite specifics so he generalized). After we had done that we had to turn around and read it back to each other. Our next step was to ask the spouse for forgiveness (this is one step further than apologizing and is not as easy as it sounds). Then!!!! we had to turn around and ask God for forgiveness for us to hold these grudges for so long. It is our responsibility to forgive people. To not forgive someone hurts ourselves more than it does the person we should forgive. Your wife has found that out. It festers and makes yourself miserable.<P>I want to reinforce what the others say...don't press. Read Love Must Be Tough.<P>If she refuses to do the lovebusters questionaire, why not ask her to take it to her take it to her counselor. See what he says.<P>Another book: His Needs, Her Needs. Wish I had read it at the beginning of our marriage.<P>Hang in there. Good Luck and God Bless You.

.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

Jimbo:<P>I agree with your approach right now. Your major focus should be on the elimination of lovebusters---this is the best place for you to make the biggest impact with your wife. You need to provide her safety, comfort, and warmth in the marriage---by eliminating the anger, disrespect, and demands.<P>In your current situation, I would think that a tough love approach would fail. Why? Because it's my belief that your wife doesn't have a ton of love left for you, and that because she has a "control" issue with you, this tough love would be viewed as the ultimate act of control. With a dedicated focus on the elimination of lovebusters, you will start to patch up her love bank, and she WILL take notice and see that your efforts are for real, and that they're for her benefit (she's already starting to notice, IMO).<P>Your best bet is to let her bring up the relationship issues on her own terms. Be prepared with the knowledge that you're learning, but also be wary of "taking control" of the situation. I know that you want (need) direct feedback on how you're doing with these changes, but it's best to put your needs on a back burner for a while. My guess is that in 6-12 months you will be able to "introduce" Harley's concepts of "Complete Honesty" and the Policy of Joint Agreement to your wife and she'll be willing to work with them; but first, you must do the groundwork of eliminating lovebusters (and then trying to meet emotional needs).

Holly Ann,<P>I've enjoyed seeing the advice you give here: I think that the tough-love approach is a good one (albeit the last one); and you've been able to cleary explain the strategy behind how to do that.<P>The issue with Plan A has more to do with the circumstances surrounding the affair and the strength of the "faithful" spouse. In my case, "lovebusters" was a major contributor to my wife feeling unloved in our marriage. The day after I discovered the affair (and discussed it with my wife), I found this sight. It was just "D'oh" after "D'oh" as I read about the concepts. I started counseling with Steve at the end of the week.<P>Plan A is tough. I have a wonderfully strong "sense-of-self" (e.g. big ego). I didn't take the affair as a personal attack by my wife, but as a statement of unhappiness. I had the "categories" to work on---in fact, I always knew that I drove my wife nuts by some of my behaviors, but I thought I was "powerless" to do anything. Wrong!!! I just needed motivation and a good coach, and I got double doses of both. Plan A can be very effective in affairs that seem "impossible", like the so-called exit affair. It takes time, patience, will-power to control the reactions to the hurt and pain... but in the end, it's can help boost self-esteem of the faithful partner by knowing that they're fighting for the marriage.<P>But there's a definite time limit on this. In my case, it was just short of 6 months. And then, plan B goes into effect (tough love). But I truly believe that the Plan A effort is the one that saved my marriage, although throughout the time I was in it I had a horrible time telling if any of it was having an effect. My advice to others doing it is to "not worry"; it DOES have an effect. You just won't realize it until later.<P>Thanks for the compliment. My mother said it best to me: "It's not amazing... it's what I would expect you to do..."<P>Have high expectations, don't worry about failure. For me, at least, it works pretty well... <P>And the payoff? Last night, our house was pretty much in disarray. I asked my wife if I could do anything to help, and she mentioned the living room (she was going in to read with the kids). So I cleaned it up, and then went to get her out of their bed (she had fallen asleep). Well, this morning I had a voice mail from her after she got up...<P>"I walked into the living room and was amazed! Thank you so much...you're a doll, I love you so... I don't know where you found time to do it"<P>Now that's quite an improvement from 18 months ago!!! (I just hope she doens't look under the couch... )

\<P><p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

\<BR><p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

Jimbo:<P>I'm going to attempt to play Steve Harley here (apologies to Steve...):<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When you say to 'bring up relationship issues on her own terms', do you mean to let her be the one who brings them up? I can try that, but in her current state of anger and frustration, it may be a long time before she approaches ME for anything.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's what I meant---she should approach you. What are your options here? She gets angry, frustrated, and defensive every time you try to discuss the relationship with her. OK---she's either just fed up with the way the situation has been, or is upset by the way you discuss it with her (probably some of both).<P>What's the most effective thing for you to do?<P>You need to learn the skills on how to discuss this with you. And when to discuss it. If you're lacking in the skills, you need time to learn and practice them. And I would suggest that it'd be safer practicing these skills in less sensitive areas of the marriage right now. You need to win back her trust and love, and you're going to have to show patience and gentleness. You're not going to be able to jump right in and fix this in a weekend.<P>Remember to always ask yourself:<P>"How will my wife feel if I ...[insert action here]"<P>You're getting it. Wanting to get up last night and asking why she was so late would have upset your wife. So you didn't do it. You need to develop the habit of asking yourself that magical little question before you do anything that will affect your wife. If you don't think the reaction will be positive, you shouldn't do it. If it's something you feel you MUST do, then you should rethink the way you were going to proceed, and come up with a more palatable solution. But at this stage in your relationship, I would squelch your "need" for honesty and communication about the state of your relationship (for example). Realize that this is a short-term sacrifice for your marriage: that it won't be this way forever.<P>Don't concern yourself too much with your wife thinking about moving. Thinking and doing are two completely different issues. And even if she does decide to separate, I'd side with Holly Ann and suggest that you be pleasant and help her, and reassure her that you love her and will be willing to work things out when she's ready.

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\<BR><p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]