I am interested in hearing from others who have spouses who are unable to negotiate in marriage. <P>My wife has never been a "negotiator". Whether it's a trivial thing like what toppings to get on a pizza, important marriage issues like sex, or a major life decision such as having children, my wife has never been willing to discuss her wants vs. my wants. She will either angrily insist on her position absolutely, or give up and say "Fine, do whatever you want!" <P>I view negotiation as a way to help everyone to get what they need and be happy. She views negotiation and compromise as a trick for me to get my way. <P>I have come to the realizion that there are people who just do not have the emotional skills necessary to negotiate. Does anyone see their situation like this? Any advice on how to deal with this situation is appreciated.<P>Just in case anyone is going to suggest "His Needs / Her Needs", I have bought the book and am waiting for the right time to show it to my wife, but I don't expect her to view it very positively (another trick).<P>Puzzled,<BR>Kenneth

Two people who are willing to negotiate is the ideal and makes everything work smoother. My husband is a "non" negotiator or has been very many years. Two things have happened to modify this. First I learned that I couldn't make him do anything but I could decided what I would do and what I wouldn't do. This is done with a smile and without any sense of controlling the other--it is simply my own limits. This helps me! I also continue to model negotiation. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Recently, my husband's business began working with Covey's Seven Habits. He came home excited about "win-win" agreements because he could see them making a difference at work. I find that it is still slow but is getting better. I don't know if I can recommend other books in this forum, but I found a great deal of help from a book called "Boundaries in Marriage" . Good luck!

Kenneth,<P>From my experience with my wife, and what I have read about depression, this "black and white" type thinking is common among people having problems with depression. At least in my marriage, my wife seems unaware of any areas of compromise when in a state of depression.<P>Over the last year she has made a number of very bad choices that involve our children, family, and marriage. While these choices hurt others in the short-term, they could hurt her much more in the long-term. Even though I and others tried to warn her of the possible consequences of her choices, she was (and still is) unable to see them.<P>I have had it pointed out to me that a person can only choose from the choices they are aware of. Even if others see many options, they may not be available to a person with depression due to this "all or nothing" focus.<P>By the way, I liked your mention of the quote from David Ben-Gurion a few days ago. I have had that same quote on my screen-saver for the last couple of months.<P>Ron

My H is exactly the opposite... when my therapist asked him the question, "Do you want to stay married" he said, "she doesn't want to" and pointed to me. Then my therapist said, "I didn't ask you what you think she feels, I asked you what *you* would like" and he said, "it doesn't matter what I want, because *she* doesn't want it"...<P>Not much negotiating going on there either, even though it's the opposite. And Ron, I agree with you about depression... my H is a very depressed person but won't get help.

Dear New Beginning,<P>An interesting observation, it must have been extremely frustrating to hear that.<P>I have experienced similar situations. My wife will justify her extreme position by asserting that I hold an equally extreme oposite view, even before she has heard what I have to say. I guess it's part of why they see things in such a no-alternative, no-compromise-way.

Dear Kenneth, This is Shawna, the one you gave such good advice to concerning what to do with money. Remember? I do want to do just as you advised, but as you may know, I am married to a non negociator. He knows what he wants to do with the money and that is that. If he doesn't like my ideas a fight is on. If I give in, he gets his way. If he gives in it's no good for anybody because he is so resentfull. He makes me miserable and will not let me forget that he didn't get his way. We don't have money yet, but I know this will happen. He is like this with everything. The pollicy of joint agreement is not possible with these kind of people. But we do have hope, don't we? <BR> I think the reason my H is like this is because he was born a very self involved person. He didn't learn it, he was born to be it. Then on top of that he was so very cute. To his mother and anybody else that saw him. He was babbied from day one and given anything his little heart desired. Mostly by his mother, whether it hurt her or not, she had to make him happy. He is very charming and knows how to make it work for him. But if he comes up against something that he can't charm his way or talk his way into, you are the enemy and everything is your fault. He can be very ugly.<BR> Sorry, no advice here. I don't know what to do. I wish people would let you know who they realy are before you marry them, and not wait to show you after. I knew this man almost 8 years before marriage and didn't see this coming. He is very slick. Knowing what I know now, I would not have married him, but I did so what do you do with that?<BR> I'm sorry Kenneth, I didn't help you a bit did I?<P> Care about you though, <BR> Shawna<P>------------------<BR>

Dear Shawna,<P>You certainly have a very tough situation. One possible reason for your husbands attitude is that he feels threatened when he doesn't get his way. In other words he feels a lack of control. That might give you an angle to work with. <P>Identify what it is he wants to do with the money, and what his fears are about you controlling the money. Empathize with his position. Tell him what you want to do and what your fears are. When you get down to the basics, you are probably both afraid of loosing the money! <P>Put it in those terms, avoid the personalities. Don't say to your H. "I'm afraid you will loose the money." but rather, say "I'm afraid we will loose the money if we don't invest it wisely." <P>Lead your husband into suggesting that you go to an investment adviser, or your bank manager, for advice. Make him think it's his idea, say "I don't know, do you think our bank manager can help us choose some safe investments?" The account can be arranged to require both signitures for withdrawls and transfers. Or perhaps, "for tax reasons", it should be in your name only. <P>It might help if you met with your bank manager privately first, honestly tell him/her the situation, and pre-arrange the best options. Then when your H. "brings you" to the bank manager, he will get to choose from the safe pre-selected options. Don't be surprised, bank managers are used to this situation; it's more common than you think.<P>It sounds devious, but your motives are the best, and in the end you both get what you really need, safety, and you get it by avoiding what usually gets in the way, control.<P>There are books on negotiation, I haven't read any, but maybe they could help us negotiate with non-negotiators.<P>Good luck!

Kenneth,<BR> I love talking with you, you seem so reasonable. Though I am surprised to hear a man say I should use a little manipulation on another man to make him think it was his idea. But then again it isn't a manipulation that will do any harm, so it can't be bad.<BR> Would a bank talk to me about this on the phone, do you think? I live in a small town and don't wish to use either of the two banks that are here. I would like to talk to other banks and pick the best one but I'm disabled and don't want to have to go in all the banks, that are out of town, to decide.<BR> Pluss I won't know until September how much it will be, so what kind of questions will I ask? Perhaps I will just wait till I have it.<BR> My H says the same thing about me. He says he is afraid that if I have control of the money, I will just run off and spend it all. All of my single life before him I kept my bills paid, had very little money and never owned more than one pair of shoes at a time. Never went on shopping sprees. But 3 years ago I somehow was granted a preaproved credit card and I snapped.<BR> I bought myself shoes, a few pair of pants and some blouses, bought my daughter clothes also and him a 300 dollar watch, ( which he adores ).<BR>So this is what he judges me by. Because I lost control once in my life and I loved it.<BR> Yes we are both afraid we'll lose the money due to the others spending. But my plans are what you have suggested, so it will grow and hopefuly always be there.<BR>He wants to quit work, write a book, open a restaurant, start a gym, rebuild the house, and on and on. He is a dreamer and this is one of the things that attracted me to him. I'm a realist and enjoyed the dreaming for a change. But look at me, I'm way off the subject of this topic, Nagotiating. Sorry if I didn't spell that right, I've forgotten how.<BR>My H won't negotiate (is that the right spelling)? He either gets his way or resents you for not getting it.<BR>Sorry I rambled on.<BR>Love, Shawna <P> <P>------------------<BR>

Shawna,<P>Yes, you can talk to the banks over the phone. If you tell them you are expecting a considerable sum of money and that you want to invest it through thier bank, they will be thrilled to talk to you. That's the kind of thing bank managers dream about.<P>Remember, you are in control, they are trying to sell you their services. You are not asking them for a favour, you are bringing them business. Don't take the first thing they offer you, shop around. Read up on the subject: "Investing for Dummies" is a good place to start.<P>Don't look upon your discussions with your husband as 'manipulation'. What you are doing is negotiating in front of him. Lead him through the process by showing him that he will get what he realy needs. You are teaching him how to negotiate. When he realizes he won't get cheated by negotiating, he will be more ready to engage in it.<P>Good luck,<BR>Kenneth

Thank you Kenneth,<BR> I'll go get Investing for Dummies tomorrow, if the Library has it. A Dummy is what I am, (no shame).<BR>As for my H though, I will spend the rest of my time with him just being quiet and let him have his way. He is getting physical. I've been beat up before, by another man, and I know the signs. Will still be around for a little while though, so please keep talking to me. Have you read my other Topic? It's called, Having a Child. If you have time, give it a look see.<P>Thank You,<BR>Shawna <P>------------------<BR>

Shawna,<P>Please be look after yourself. Get some help before he hurts you. Call a support group or councellor to get some real advice. I realy don't know what advice to offer, more than that.<P>God bless,<BR>Kenneth

Thank you Kenneth,<BR> He hasn't hurt me yet. He just gets so angry that he pushes me. so far I've always been sitting on the bed and he pushes me onto my back. Once I was sitting on the toilet (not useing it, just sitting on it). But any way I have finaly confided in a friend about my fear of him and she gave me good advice, to find a councelor who could possably make an emergency appointment. H is a Truck Driver and we can't make normal appointments for anything. He may have to take another Load somewhere. Also if nothing else works she said, You have my number.<P>Thank you for careing,<BR>Shawna<P>------------------<BR>

My wife is in a non-negotiating phase. She will not talk about her problem, the fact that as she says "she does not know where her love and passion in our relationship has gone." She refuses to allow me to even talk to her about it. She says she wants to talk to a therapist or counselor. And I have agreed. But she is very distant and refuses to make any expression of love towards me. No "I love you's" when I leave or return from work. Nor when saying good night. If I inquire about her state of mind she accuses me of pressuring her and why won't I leave her alone to handle her own problem. She admitted last night that in fact I may not have done anything to make her feel this way. I tend to think she is not truthful or is hiding something. I am very frustrated for her and me. I love her immensely and want to feel her love as we had before. My affection for her and passion for her has never waned. What can I do?

John,<P>what you need to do is back off. Don't pressure her for affection, I love you's, sex, or even talk. <P>There is a difference between non-negotiators, and a spouse in withdrawl. When she is in withdrawl, the more you try to pressure her the worse it will get. Take it from me, that's what I did and now we are separated and my wife wants a divorce. Don't let it get to that. <P>Go to therapy and talk about it there. Don't bring it up outside of therapy. If she wants to talk, listen, but keep your responses short and focused on understanding her feelings. Make plans for your self, do things without her. Keep positive.<P>Most important of all: don't whine!!! She will hate that.<P>Good luck,<BR>Kenneth

Kenneth- you sound so wise. I have a non-negotiating h too. Shawna hit the nail right on the head. If it is his idea and I agree great, if I disagree, we fight and then it's either -do whatever you want- or I get my way with a lot of resentment. For way too long I took the easy path and let him have his way. I tried to stand up for what I felt but he is very determined and eventually wore me down. That is why we have 4 kids, a motorcycle, a hobie cat boat etc etc. Of course, it seems to me that our house is falling apart b/c we never have $$ for that stuff. He has a lot of passions. I have none. I would love to feel passionate about something but I think I need the support and comfort to discuss and plan. W/out those things, there is a hollow feeling. Lately, I have said -enough- and started to withdraw, as he has also so now we are in a big mess. I asked him to listen to HIS NEEDS/HER NEEDS and noticed it was in his car. Maybe this will be a dent. The fact that he is making any attempt to listen to it (on tape) is already a miracle. He refuses counseling and really wont open up to me. What to do, what to do??

Kenneth,<P>You wrote, '"She will either angrily insist on her position absolutely, or give up and say "Fine, do whatever you want!" '<P>After reading your posts, I was really tempted to ask my wife if she had another husband somewhere. This is her entire way of looking at life. She either gets what she wants or has a wall-eyed hissy fit!!<BR>Not much advice from me, but a whole lot of empathy.<P>May the Lord Bless You and Keep You,<BR>John

Keep On Trying,<BR>You sound a lot like me, in that I tend to let my H have his way most of the time. <BR>I, too, have no passions. Sometimes I feel like I am only a wife and a mother, but absolutely nothing without my H or son. I feel like I have no identity of my own. Why do we let ourselves get to this point?

Laura- I think I do it because it is easier and I try to avoid conflict. Unfortunately I find it gives the non-negotiator more control and makes me more miserable which is how I got to the state I am in. I don't want to play the game anymore and started to withdraw and now he has too. He keeps pushing and pushing and wearing me down. <BR>Then he starts belittling me by telling me I have no sense of adventure and I never want to try anything, which may be the truth because they are always his things that must be tried, done etc. What do you think?? It stinks doesn't it??

Well, I can certainly relate to everyone here - my H will listen then not hear me and then just go on about his business. It is like talking to a brick wall. When I asked if he was going to even try and to be honest about it, he said not to expect anything. Well, at least that was hones, before he would say he would try and then not do anything. <P>Catch ya later<BR>Ally<BR>

Thank you Kenneth for your insight. Backing off has helped. We are feeling more at ease together. I am trying to stay busy reading and playing with my two boys. She is busy doing things around the house and working.<P>I am reading the Road Less Traveled, by M Scott Peck. This book had helped me at an earlier point in my life and taught me about love and its nuances.<P>I am leaking some of the concepts to her about love, it various forms and how love is maintained once "the honeymoon is over." Just subtle comments; it is tough for me to not and try to make contact with her. I am trying to be there for her when she is ready to open up. I know she will. And if she doesn't I think I will be OK.<P>Thanks again.