My original post is over under the topic "Separate and Desparate".<P>We've been separated for about 1 month now. I'm using Plan A from a distance. I am paying all the bills as she looks for work; hence I am still trying to meet some EN. My counselr says this is going to take 6 months before I can move back in. I am terrified that she is going to find an OP in that amount of time. She may have already. I don't know. I only know I have no intetion of dating or anything other than trying to bring my W back out of Withdrawal.<P>I feel that I cannot move back in until she asks me to. She is currently in complete withdrawal. I'm using all of Harley's methods. There's been no sign of a crack in her armpor yet, and I know it takes time. However, my insides are turning because I have a fear that I am going to lose her unless I can get back under the same roof and let her see my LB-free behavior from day-to-day. How do I get back in?

I don't mean to sound rude....but I think if it's YOU who didn't want the separation in the first place, you should not have moved out....she should have.<P>So, in light of that, I think you should move back in the house immediately and explain that to her....even if that means living in a separate bedroom. Tell her you DON'T want the marriage to end, that you DON'T want to loose her (or the kids or the house) and try with all your might to not LB. <P>That's just my own opinion. I can't find your other post, so I don't really know the full story, but why did you move out to begin with? <P>Part of Harley's method is to let the other spouse feel the full effects of what their behaviour brings...if she needs space....if she doesn't want to be married....whatever....SHE needs to feel the full effects of what that means. I don't think you should give her the best of both worlds, or something like you are worried about might happen.<P>Again, that's just my opinion. I'm preaching to the choir hear, because when it's you in the midst of all the emotions, it's hard sometimes to see the most simple and logical things...believe me, I know.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O

I left because during our fights I asked her if she wanted a divorce and she said yes. Maybe I made a mistake, but now I don't think she would take kindly to my moving back in. I believe she will feel threatened by this, no matter what I say.<P>I don't want to lose my wife. As for my original post, here it is below:<P>"My wife and I have separated. There have been so many severe problems that it brought us to this. Between my depression/reclusiveness/problems with anger and her boredom at home and her bar hopping every night, we have become strangers. Now, I trust her completely and I don't think she has ever messed around. We just don't have anything in common anymore.<P>She is at the point now where she has said things to me like:<P>1) I don't feel anything<BR>2) I love you, but not the way you want me to.<BR>3) You should get on with your life and see other people.<BR>4) You make me nervous.<BR>5) I can't go through another one of your misery episodes.<P>My problems have probably destroyed our marriage. She doesn't feel the same about me after all the crap she has had to put up with.<P>We are now separated. I am renting out a spare bedroom from a friend while she still lives at home. She is not working right now, and I am paying all the bills. It's been a month now since I gave her space.<P>For my depression, I've gone to get treatment and continue to do so on a regular basis. I'm doing this for myself, not for our marriage. On the other hand, my wife is not seeking work and just bar hops every night with her friends. She is not getting any counselling, but only drinks more and more as each day goes by. I know she is going through a lot. Her sister died of cancer a year ago and her parents have moved out of the state. She must feel really alone.<P>I scared that I may have lost her. I know that she needs time and space apart from me, but she needs help. It pains me because I love her so much and do not want a divorce. I just want us to come back together. She is my queen, my angel. For me, there can never be another.<P>I'm hoping my changes will inspire her to get some help, but she won't reach out to anyone. I want our marriage to come back together so much, but she doesn't want me in the same house with her.<P>This thing could take months. Unfortunately, my salary is not enough to keep paying all the bills. The money is going to run out in about a month and checks will start bouncing unless payments get delayed. At this rate, she would have to return to some kind of work or we will have to sell the house.<P>I always talk to her in a soft voice and never argue, no matter what insult she hurls at me. I send her flowers on a regular basis along with cards and letters, all to no avail. I can't get any response from her.<P>How long is thing going to take? She built up an emotional wall around her, but she has not filed any divorce papers. Everything is in limbo. I used to cry all the time after the breakup. I still do, but not as often. The pain is still there, and I love her so much. Unfortunately, the past problems keep getting in the way because she thinks I'm doomed to repeat them. I know this is not the case. I am willing to wait and let her see the changes, but every day we are living apart feels like we are moving further and further away from ever getting back together. God, Please help me."<P><BR>

Yes, I finally found your original posts too. <P>However, I still stick with my first answer. You also posed the question....how do I get her out of the withdrawal phase? I guess in my opinion, you are supporting her withdrawal by withdrawing yourself! Space? She wants space so she doesn't have to face the natural consequences of her withdrawal (drinking, etc). <P>I'm sure you are right that she won't look kindly on it...but I bet she won't be in withdrawal anymore. And I think you should do what you believe is best...for you, for the kids, but esp. for her. <P>Do you think it's good for her to be all alone, in withdrawal, drinking, etc.? You sure don't sound like it. It's classic for an alcoholic (which I'm not necessarily saying she is) to ask to be left alone. That way they don't have to face what their drinking behaviour is doing to them and their world.<P>And it's classic for a co-dependant (which I'm not necessarily saying you are) to give them their way so they can self-destruct. It's what you've learned with her....it's what she's learned with you.<P>Somewhere, the pattern needs to change. <P>My opinion still stands. I think you should move back in based on the following:<P>1) You love her and want to do anything that's needed to keep the marriage.<P>2) You are not going to just sit by and do nothing about the problems between the two of you. <P>3) It's too expensive to run two households.<P>I think if you humbly present these reasons to her, in love, and firmly move back in, then you would be doing the right thing.<P>When a person we love wants to do something that's bad for them, we don't just let them do it in the name of "giving them their own space." No, we LOVE them and behave with them in a way that is for their best interest....even if it MAY upset the situation. Don't hide the truth from her. Don't let her just withdraw. Be there and offer to help her, communicate that you are getting help.<P>I don't know if this is the right course of action, but looking back on my situation, I wish I would have acted more aggressively to stop the marriage from just dwindling away. I look back now and wonder....why didn't I DO SOMETHING at the first sign of trouble? <P>I don't really have an answer....I didn't realize it was that bad....I didn't have this site....whatever. Well, you are lucky....you seem to be very aware of the situation....I urge you to act. <P>If your wife was drowning, would you just sit back and "give her her space?" No...you'ld jump in headfirst, even if she struggled....it would be better than drowning.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

I'll talk to her and she if she agrees to my moving back in during the next few weeks. I'll let you know what happens. <P>Thanks for your help. It's great just knowing there are other people out there who have dealt with these types of problems before. Counselors confuse the hell out of me. One tells me to move back in, another tells me to stay away, while yet another tells me the marriage is over and I should move on. Sharing stories like this makes better sense for me.

Yes, I agree.....not all counselors are in the same boat. If it's only been a month, and a counselor is saying it's over, move on....that's a bad counselor. You may have to try a coupla counselors to get a good one. <P>May I also suggest that you get on an anti-depressant, if you are not already. It will be very helpful to you.<P>I read some of the responses in your other posts....I have to agree with NSR. Don't ASK her if you can move back in....TELL her, lovingly, firmly....when you will be moving back in and WHY. If you ask her, of course she's not going to agree....she doesn't want to get out of withdrawal!!<P>YOU are paying the bills for the house, it's your house, YOU don't want the marriage to end, YOU deserve to live there.<P>It is NOT A LOVE BUSTER to do this!!<P>Don't let your marriage go with a whimper. FIGHT, man, FIGHT for it! <P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P>PS. Just fyi....It really helps to NOT post a topic in so many different areas....seeing all the responses together and us seeing other people's responses really helps.

Hi Warewolf,<BR>O's comments on co-dependency ring very true. I would like to ask you to get a book called "Love is a Choice". It's in the addiction section at the bookstore. I am just finishing reading it. Read it and study it. You have some hard work ahead of you but if you want this relationship to STAY together after you reunite, you need this book. Also, get a counselor who has a clue about the right things! Why do most states give you a year to get divorced? So you have time to work out things, both for the relationship and for yourself.<BR>I hope it works out for you. You have a lot of opportunity as long as you can communicate with her. God be with you both. Ted

Thanks Ted...I'll look for that book.<P>Mrs. O, I told my W Sunday that I would be moving in Wednesday. Her response was neither agreement nor objection. She basically hurried to end the conversation.<P>On a separate subject, without my asking, a friend informed me that he saw my W with another man this past Saturday hanging out together in a bar. Apparently, it was the same guy that I've always suspected she might be seeing. After I move back in, I'll have to adrress this somehow. <P>I could ask her outright about an affair, but I know the immediate response will be NO. Any ideas on how to approach this subject of infidelity? I could ask her to stop seeing this other person, but I don't know if I can trust her to do what she says. I'm scared of being used.

Here's a link where I was trying to tell someone to get out, and it turned out I was wrong ... for peculiar reasons ... but a lot of what I wrote about getting out or not getting out may be applicable to your situtuation, particularly the stuff about being back in for the <I>right</I> (i.e. non-selfish) reasons:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/003354.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/003354.html</A> <P>So the point is, you need to do a certain amount of credible explaining why you just showed back up. It can be done, and explained well, and work ... but if you <I>can't</I> sell her the idea that it's for all the right reasons, your road becomes <I>a lot</I> more difficult.

Dear Warewolf,<P>That's an interesting response on your W's part....interesting because she didn't get all bent about it. Makes me wonder what she's thinking....<P>I agree that the <I>reasons</I> you move back in should be credible...and your most certainly are. From what I gather, you want your marriage to succeed above all else. Just the fact that you moved out to give her space shows, to me at least, that you weren't being selfish, but putting her first. However, allowing her to stew in her own demise (drinking, withdrawal, etc.) <I>isn't</I> necessarily the best thing for her, as I discussed before. To me, you moving back in isn't for you...it's for you and her....the relationship, which at this point, needs to be put as the first priority.<P>I don't have alot of advice for you, but this:<P>*Again, reinforce your love for her and your desire to do whatever needs to be done to save the marriage.<P>*Be honest with her....tell her what your friend said. Ask her what that was about.<P>*<I><B>DRAG HER, BEG HER, TAKE HER</I></B> to counseling. Do WHATEVER it takes to address the marriage. You're not dying....she's not dying....it's the relationship that is dying. It needs emergency attention.<P>*Show her (by your words and actions) what you really have learned from this site on how to be a husband. Don't allow yourself to fall back into the same old patterns between you and her. Show her that you are working individually on you (by counseling, etc.) and to help make the marriage better. This is your big chance....but don't get all discouraged if you blow it or if it doesn't seem to make any difference....just keep on keeping on.<P>*Sit down and have a heart-to-heart, all-on-the-table, totally-honest discussion with her. Let her know the desire of your heart for the marriage. Ask her to give it one more chance....6-months.....no bar hopping, going to counseling, no other men, etc. Get a plan.<P>I don't know why, but I get a sense from your posts that your are scared of her or of her reactions. I don't really know where that comes from. I am also concerned about her response to your original post..."you make me nervous." Why does she feel that you make her nervous?<P>That's about all I can say for now. You guys need to get into counseling....please try to make that happen.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Mrs O:<P>Thanks for the thorough responses. I'll let you know how it goes. I have done of this for my own selfish reasons. It has all been an huge effort to reconcile with my W, depsite everyone telling to move on and forget her.<P>I make my W nervous because of my past problems with depression and angry outbursts. Once a few months ago, I thought she was having an affair when I caught her on the phone with another guy. It put me in a huge rage. I saw flashbacks of the incident with my first wife (she was sleeping with my best friend). I did a lot of yelling, busted the phone, and threw things. In that incident, it turned out she was physically innocent, but emotionally guuitly. <P>Now, if she lies to me about an affair, one reason could be that she fears my reaction will be like before. Also, the affair is apparently with the same guy that she was suspected of seeing before. The problem is expanded by the fact that he is a part of our circle of friends.<P>That type of emotional response will not be drawn from me. As I've told her so many times, I am seeking help. I have God back in my life. I am in church every Sunday. I did 2 weeks of outpatient psychotherapy last month. I am individually meeting a counselor once a week, and a psychiatrist once a month. I am taking my antidepressant medication on a regular basis. I've quit drinking and going to bars. I am doing all these things because I want to better myself. I know I will be happy no matter what relationship path God chooses for me. <P>The difficult part now is that, for this marriage to work, she has got to change as well. That, however, remains to be seen. I know she is withdrawn and I am willing to wait that out. If she won't eventually meet me halfway, then I will have to be prepared to let go and get on with my life. <P>I've really learned a lot from this site. In the future, after my life is back together, I intend to stay with this site and perhaps help others the way you have helped me.

Sorry for the typos in the last post. In the 3rd sentence, I meant to say "I have done none of this for my own selfish reasons". I should start proofing my notes!

Dear Warewolf,<P>I'm so happy you have your relationship with God again! That is the best starting place for any situation.<P>And I am also proud of you for all the strides you've made in bettering yourself....becoming a better you and bringing a better you to the relationship.<P>Just be aware that when you do move back in on Wednesday, there are gonna be times when you guys butt heads. It definately will get her out of withdrawal, but not necessarily in a good way! Keep your head about you. You don't have to be perfect, just humble. Your anger is going to want to rear it's ugly head again. <P>I wish you the very best. Please do keep us informed. My only real advice is still do anything you can to get her into counseling with you. There's gotta be a way it can be done. <P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Well, today is the day I move back into the house. I want to tell you that something weird happened last night. W called me last night at around 1:00 am. I could tell she had been drinking by the way she spoke.<P>She bashed me in every way possible. She blamed me for being in this "pit" as she called it. She questioned my whole sincerity about getting God back in my life. She mentioned how many times she tried to get me to go to church in the past and I wouldn't. She eventually quit going to church herself. She said she was glad I was so happy while she is so miserable. She told me she hates me. She wanted to know why I didn't change a year ago when she needed me.<P>This all really hurt, but I never argued. I continuously apologized, told her I love her so much, said she was free to leave the marriage if she wanted, that I was getting myself together for myself and not for anyone else, that I wanted to make this marriage work, that I wasn't dwelling on mypast mistakes but I had learned from them.<P>Her response was to tell me not to try and give her one of my "presentations" or speeches. I did ask her if she had been or currently involved with anyone else. She said "NO, BUT I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT IT". She needs to be close to someone, and there was someone around that she had made an emotional connection to. That really hurt, but I kept my composure.<P>Later, at 2 a.m., I get another phone call. She tells me she is sorry for being so mean. I told her there was no need to apologize and that I deserved everything she said for my past mistakes. I'm going to call her before I go over to the house today.<P>My evaluation of last night's discussion was that she was doing several things:<P>1) coming ever so slightly out of withdrawal and into conflict mode with me<BR>2) venting all her pent up frustrations<BR>3) testing me to see if I could be provoked into another angry outburst<P>What is your take on this?

Ditto. Now -- no defensiveness and no stonewalling. Her criticism and contempt are bad, but stay engaged, and if you start to "flood" emotionallly (95+ bpm heart rate) ask her for a half hour break. You might set that ground rule ahead of time. <P>You two also need to pay a lot more attention to alcohol's influence on your lives.

Sisyphus...I agree with what you said about alcohol. Once I am back in the house in Plan A mode, she is still going to want to go out barhopping. I can foresee where she asks me if I want to go with her. In the early stages of this, I may have to say Yes and tag along so that I don't appear to be selfishly ignoring her. I won't be drinking, but it will be hard to put on a happy face when I am not in a place I want to be in. I'll do my best anyway to please her.<P>Eventually, I'm going to try to get her into counseling with me or by herself in order to get her to face her addictions.

Next question...While I am in Plan A mode, what do I do about this OP that W has made an emotional connection with? <P>It's likely to be someone I know and It's likely to be someone at one of the local bars she frequents. If I do go into the bar, I'm scared I'll be less concerned with meeting her needs and more concerned about finding out who this OP (man or woman) could be so that I can undermine their future influence. I'd be a fool to think that this OP is not going to pursue my W or vice versa during the near future. HELP!!

Good job, Warewolf!<P>I think you're right, your wife is coming out of withdrawal. However, stay in the humble, loving, Plan A mode....she's now in conflict stage and will hurl all sorts of crap at you. <P>My first thought/suggestion for you is maybe you need to call Dr. Harley's counseling center for some immediate advice. <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html</A> <P>It's a bit pricey, but it really is worth it...and I think it would be especially helpful right now for you. It's something like $85 for an hour, but I higly recommend it for you.<P>Have you read the book "Surviving An Affair?" If not, try to get ahold of that book ASAP and read it. It seems like there was an example of a couple in that book that sounds similar to you.<P>Also, you may want to consider finding out about an intervention for your wife. Go to...<BR> <A HREF="http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org" TARGET=_blank>www.alcoholics-anonymous.org</A> <P>...and look at that info. Also, try to find a group in your area. Maybe she'll go if you suggest it....won't hurt.<P>Again, keeping a humble, loving attitude and be honest and open with her. Plan A is hard! But I think it's still the best option for you at this time.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P>PS If you do talk with Dr. Harley, ask him very specific questions for a course of action for you, given your specific circumstances. I think that would really help you.<P>One Last Thought: Don't be so "willing" to let your wife out of the marriage. While you can't stop her, you don't necessarily have to "offer" that choice to her....she's knows she can get out if she wants to. To be honest, it doesn't sound to me like she wants to. Sounds like she is angry about stuff (past stuff) and probably would actually want to stay married if that stuff could be addressed, even tho she makes it sound like it's too late (i.e. "where were you last year?" remark). Assure her that it's not too late. <P>Okay...now this REALLY is the last thought: Be VERY AWARE of your actions, as opposed to your words. She is keying in on your "presentations" and needs/wants to see if they are real. I think this is vital for you....like someone else suggested, take a break if the tension gets too high. <P>That's it....good luck and please keep us posted. I'm happy to see you are going thru with the move back in. That takes alot of courage, esp. when she isn't exactly welcoming it.

Hurling crap at me is right! I moved back in yesterday, and let me tell you it was a roller coaster ride! I'll walk you through the events.<P>When I arrived, her 13 year old son smiled and hugged me. I'm betting she did not like that. I asked her if I could hug her and she obliged, although it felt one-sided. Regardless, I wanted to start off right by showing her some affection (#1 EN for her). There was almost no conversation between us as I moved my clothes and stuff back into my closet. She stayed talking on the phone mostly with other people that were calling her.<P>About 30 minutes after I arrived, she jumps in the 4-Runner and leaves without saying a word. She didn't return for about 8 hours. I believe she was at the local bar the entire time. While she was gone, her son made some comments about how he wished Mom wouldn't go to the bar every night. He also said she made some comments the day before about finding another place for the both of them to live. He asked me if he could come over every now and then. <P>While she was gone, I also cleaned up a bit around the house...especially the bedroom. When she finally returned (12:40 am), she was UPSET. I was sleeping on the couch when she came in. She immediately started yelling at me because someone at the bar had told her that I had said we split because she was smoking too much pot. I told her that was not true. I never yelled during her tirade, and I constantly spoke reassuring statements. Again, she made comments like "Where were you when I needed you a year ago?", "Those other people want what you had.", "You are too late..I am a cold-hearted *****."<P>She stormed into the bedroom, and I heard her surprise when she saw I had cleaned the bedroom. As she lay on the bed in her clothes on the verge of crying over everything, I came in, told her I love her, and I only want her to be happy. I started massaging her feet and then her shoulders. She didn't resist.<P>We sat there a while as I did this as she played with one of our 5 cats that was on the bed with us. She said she was hungry, so I went to the kitchen and brought her some ham, cheese, and crackers, and a glass of Tab (her favorite!). She ate them up quickly. As she climbed under the covers with her clothes still on, I ran my fingers through her hair, told her goodnight, and that I loved her.<P>I went to bed on the couch after I told her I would not try to sleep in the bed with her unless she invited me. To me, that would be a LB right now. This morning, I rose and dressed to go to work. Before I left, I went in the bedroom, kissed her on the cheek, softly ran my fingers over her back (shae had undressed after I left the bedroom the night before). I told her I would call her later and that I loved her. <P>I'm feeling better now, but the entire drive to the office found me with the feeling of a big hole in my chest. My thoughts are still of who she may be seeing, but it wouldn't do any good if I knew who it was. A person i nher state would just deny everything and withdraw even more. Hence, I am going to ignore that issue and focus on courting her back into our marriage. <P>I realize this will take time. I realize I am going to get a lot of rejection and anger thrown at me. I am ready to take it because I am willing to humble myself as much as needed to make her reach out to me for help. I still don't know what to do about her drinking, though. If I approach her on the subject, I know she will get furious with me. That one is going to require some more thought.<P>I will schedule to talk to Harley. I also have an appointment today with my own counselor. Furthermore, I put all these problems in God's hands. He will decide my life's path. Pray for us.<P>As someone said, "What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger."

That was Nietzsche. He also said: "From Old Florentine Novels; also--from life: "<I>Buona femmina e mala femmina vuol bastone</I>." (Good and bad women want a stick.)<P>Whatever he meant, the quote is real but I'm just kidding, OK?