I read your previous thread here...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000762

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Wow - minus the affairs you sound like my first husband used to sound when he would complain about me. Different frustrations - similar voice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Jamie's thread -

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi...atebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=012898;p=1

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

Jamie,
Thanks for posting. But I'm not sure I understand your point. How do I "sound"? I read your link to your situation. Are you saying I am abusive like your husband (rest his soul)? Sounds like we may have a few things we could bounce off one another. But I still don't get your point.

My situation is really no better. After four years of trying on this R I've pretty much withdrawn. We did separate for a while a few months ago, but it hurt my kids (me too, call me a "wimp" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ), particuarly my 8 year old.

She's still doing the same old things. To me it's become "my problem to solve". She's not going to. A previous post noted something that has stuck with me (paraphase):

IN THE LONG-TERM PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.

What I'm doing right now is staying with my kids. Needs? HA! What she's done to me has cheapened it to the point that I hardly care anymore whether she meets those needs. It's really not a healthy situation and will have to change sooner or later.

So, how do you go about making a situation like this change?

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]</small>

Well, the slapping thing for a start. My husband never hit me but he did feel justified in using physical actions, and creating fear to communicate displeasure, anger, upset.

Everything was always my fault. He could never see that the fear he created and the stress he created was part of the reason I was withdrawing. He was quite worried about his &#8220;manhood&#8221; and how things looked to everyone else. And he was always graciously forgiving me, which was so demeaning. He was keeping score of I had done wrong in his eyes, but never saw his part in any of it. The past was held over my head, I was always trying to make up for my failings &#8211; and never could. I could never be enough for him. I could never be myself. I could never be good enough. I had to give everything, and became convinced that I had nothing to give. Eventually I became very suicidal. And he&#8217;s thinking that he&#8217;s just fine. It&#8217;s all me. If that wife of mine would just change this, or that&#8230;

The situation is not the same, but I do see similarities, from another perspective.

I see your point now. And, to some extent, you're right. Note my string above........"cheapened".

Here's what I mean - when you've negotiated time and time again, made the mistake of bringing up the past and letting the past be brought up, seen a promise or commitment slide and do nothing about it just to prevent a fight and then bring up the next one......and participate in a fight.....

These are the things I've done that have hurt.

But what can I do otherwise? I do believe that given any problem, look within for the solution. My W does not think this way. She sees others as the problem and seeks to avoid responsibility.

Jake or Bernie,

This going back to those memories is always very hard for me because I am one of those people whose memories are very real and very present when I call on them. It&#8217;s like going through the whole thing all over again.

It&#8217;s much easier for someone like me to dig a hole, dump everything in, bury it and run away &#8230; uh, after jumping on the ground a few times the make sure the earth is packed pretty solid over those damn memories/truths. But the past is a slippery sucker. It sprouts anew &#8230;

By now you are thinking &#8220;huh?&#8221;

Any way &#8211; maybe I can help you understand how your wife feels to a small degree. Or, maybe not. You may not want to hear from me after all.

I will say this, you scare me and reading how you feel makes me want to go hide under the sheets. I don&#8217;t even know you and I live very, very far away, and I&#8217;m feeling a little scared reading your anger with your wife. I can&#8217;t imagine being on the receiving end of that. Well, actually I can. That&#8217;s my problem.

I&#8217;m going to apologize in advance because I think I&#8217;m going to piss you off. Not my intention. Please remember that I&#8217;m relating this to my own feelings and memories. I&#8217;m not attacking you &#8211; just offering insight into how she might feel.

I relate very much to her feelings of not being perfect, and withdrawing. I can understand why you might not be a big priority for her right now &#8211; she possibly trying very hard to keep breathing. She probably has nothing to give.

The affairs are most likely not about her giving anything TO someone else. My guess is that they are about getting something FROM someone, anyone, and something unconditional that she can take to her soul and feel herself with. It sounds like she is dying inside.

As long as you focus mostly on what you want from her that you are not getting, you&#8217;re most likely going to get the same result. It sounds like you both have been locked into the same hopeless dance for a long time. Someone has to change the music so you can start a new dance. However she can&#8217;t tell you which music she wants, and if she did, you most likely would choose a different tune from the one she wants any way. Sorry &#8211; slipped into the philosophical for a second there.

It&#8217;s going to take me a while to go through all of the posts here again, and comment, if you want to hear more from me that is. If you do, give me a few days.

I can&#8217;t remember how many children you have. Have you said before?

Best,
Jamie

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

Some things I wonder as I read your posts are here.

What do you think attracted your wife to you when she met you?

What kinds of things did you do when you were interested in getting to know your wife better that made her fall in love with you? There must have been a few things that you were AWARE of doing with the GOAL of winning her mind and heart.

And I also wonder, why did you want her?

These are serious questions so if you choose to answer them, skip the &#8220;for the life of me I don&#8217;t know&#8221; stuff guys seem to like to pull. You know.

Jamie,
First of all you didn't piss me off with your comments. I'm a big guy and I can handle the truth. So, lay it on me (that goes for everyone!).

Now, to answer your last questions:

What do you think attracted your wife to you when she met you?
She says how I look and act. Apparently she thought, and still says, that I'm a good-looking guy. She's also talked about a "presence" about me - something like a "natural born leader" thing. I don't always see it like this, however. In my job, and being an athlete in college before that, you have to get things done. And I do.

What kinds of things did you do when you were interested in getting to know your wife better that made her fall in love with you?
We were always together when we were dating. Best friends & lovers. We went out together of dates, spent evenings & weekends playing around, etc. Back then I often got her flowers, cards, little notes, etc. And she was even bigger about this than me.

And I also wonder, why did you want her?
She is drop-dead beautiful of one thing! But she had a good-natured side about her too (still does, she just won't let it out anymore). Barrel of monkeys to be around sometime, and very bright too.

You can tell that I still do think a lot about her. But here's my dilemma - I'm simply not tolerant enough to go through what I've been through and still not have my EN's met. She'll say, "I want to do it!” But you can't talk your way out of a problem you behaved yourself into!!!!!

You are going to have to be &#8220;tolerant enough&#8221; if you want to change the music.

What was your first year together like? What do you think the high points were for her?

What were the high points for you?

I'm just trying to see the broader picture.

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

Jamie,
Let say that I do appreciate you and the time you're spending with me! Thanks!

You asked a few question. Let me attempt to answer each and ask a few myself.

"You are going to have to be "tolerant enough" if you want to change the music."
Tolerant? To me there's a distinction between being tolerant and being foolish. Where do you draw the line? I have tolerated cheating, promises that were broken/unkept/false (you pick whichever one - to me it means the same), verbal and emotional abuse, and little help financially. I can put the past in the past and keep it there if I get "future protection". So, where do you draw the line?

What was your first year together like?
First year dating.....we were in college together and inseparable. Always together. Lots of affection & sex.
First year of marriage......same as above.

What do you think the high points were for her?
She caught the guy she wanted. Honestly, she sought out my company, did things with me.

What were the high points for you?
Good-looking girl, fun to be with, great sex, and she "took care and looked out for me".

".......the broader picture".
Here's what I can't understand. About two or three years into our marriage we started having sexual problems. Now admittedly my sex drive is higher than hers (a lot of couples are this way aren't they?). I tried and tried to address it with her....talk, talk, talk. She'd say, "Yeah, I'm just too busy", or "...too tired". You probably heard the excuses before.

Finally, after 4 years of dating and 4 years of marriage she just dropped on me that I'm too "big" for her, that sex is painful and that "you must understand and accept that I'm not going to have sex that often anymore". BTW, I'm 6'4", she's 5'1" if that explains the "big" thing a little better.

My response: "So, let me get this right, after 8 years together you're telling that sex hurts you and you're not going to negotiate on this position any further?"
Her reply: "Yep."

Just a few days later she found out she was expecting our first. Now, here's where I'm at - my marriage is screwed up (we had other problems other than sex (i.e., little time being spent on the R, a VERY BIG LIE about money on her part), I just got "nuked" and I'm a daddy. Well, I'm a logical guy and since no man has ever died from a lack of sex I simply refocused myself. Rather than spend time fighting her over not getting any I focused on the kid (now two kids) and my job. Our sex life didn't really stop, it was just more so whenever the mood hit her. Anytime I got aggressive she complained "it hurts".

Four years later she got mixed up with the "wrong people" and fooled around. Some pretty nasty stuff that I won't repeat any gory details. But it really makes me doubt the "it hurts" or "my sex drive is just lower than yours" complaints. One of my favorites is her "opinion" about my FEELINGS. Yes! She has and voices an opinion about my feelings. And her opinion an't pretty.

Jamie, I'm no saint. Part of the responsibility for getting us where we're at is mine. So is getting where we want to be. I accept that. It seems that no matter what I do, no matter how much I compromise, things just don't change and get any better. Basically, I feel like a doormat. Her typical retort to me is "I'm trying" or "I just can't be perfect enough". She reactionary and defensive (not just with me), stretches thing out of proportion, and just "vegetates" anymore. I do think I can put the past in the past if my future is brighter. I still do want her there, but not like this.

You asked for the "broader picture". Hopes this helps you help me more.

Thanks!

Okay - that was entirely inappropriate and I apologize. It was just too tempting for my demented sense of humor.

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

When I say &#8220;tolerant&#8221; I don&#8217;t mean foolish. I mean goal focused. Someone who is goal focused thinks strategically, with an end result in mind and doesn&#8217;t allow short term (abet painful) realities get in the way of the goal they hold in their mind, and or heart &#8211; depending on the individual&#8217;s motivation.

&#8220;Where do you draw the line?&#8221;

Well you clearly can&#8217;t draw it yet, for whatever reason, so it is better to do what you can, than do nothing at all.

I get the feeling that you think she might have pretended to be something she wasn&#8217;t to some degree when you were dating. The &#8220;She caught the guy she wanted,&#8221; statement stuck with me. I wonder if you feel that she snagged you some how. Caught implies that you feel like a trophy, or that she should feel lucky to have you.

&#8220;Honestly, she sought out my company, did things with me.&#8221;

Yup &#8211; but didn&#8217;t you seek her out too? I hope you did.

I&#8217;m looking at the high points for you during your coutship and first year of marriage. It seems that just as the high points you listed as her high points during that time, were all about you &#8211; the high points you list for you, are all about you as well. At least it&#8217;s looking that way.

&#8220;Good-looking girl, fun to be with, great sex, and she "took care and looked out for me."

It&#8217;s been my experience that year number three is a really &#8220;interesting&#8221; one. It&#8217;s about the time when one or both parties, start to express displeasure in the things they are unhappy about in the relationship. If only one person starts to complain, it&#8217;s usually the one that has been doing most of the emotional giving.

Whatever has been hurting, that the individual has been overlooking or pushing under the carpet so to speak, starts to come out to the forefront of the relationship.

Then the partner who thought everything was just dandy those first three years, goes into a state of shock insisting things go back to the way they were because things were great. Actually insisting isn't quite the right word. Demanding might be more accurate. For some situations, maybe not yours.

It sounds like things really slipped from your perspective at about year four just before your first child.

If you want to hear what I&#8217;m wondering though, I&#8217;m wondering if that wasn&#8217;t just the first you SAW of it. If some things had been going on for her that you just were not seeing, or hearing, or for her own reasons she felt that she couldn&#8217;t show you or tell you. That&#8217;s just what I wonder.

I think I&#8217;ll have to address the &#8220;I&#8217;m not perfect comment&#8221; she makes and her defensiveness another time. Too many things are thrown into a lump in the last post, making it hard for me to respond to everything you&#8217;ve said. I would suggest again, as I did in an earlier post, that it is possible that the affairs were about something she GOT, more than something she was giving. But keep in mind that I say that without knowing your wife.

I would not doubt the &#8220;it hurts" comment, my guess is that she&#8217;s telling the truth.

I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s just that her &#8220;sex drive is just lower than yours" although it might be, again, I don&#8217;t know. I do know that satisfaction increases my desire, it does for most women. I&#8217;m not your wife so I can tell you that. Again, please understand, I&#8217;m just giving you my perspective and my perspective is not necessarily the reality.

I&#8217;m lost with what you said about her "opinion" about your feelings. Do you want to share that or are you just making a statement?

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

i think you should spend your free time with your kids,they are being hurt by what is going on with you and your wife,kids know when things are not right.just maybe your wife will come around when she sees you spending extra time with your kids.my husband and i don't get too spend to much time together,because we are usaualy busy with kids or family or friends,but we do our best to show each other we are there for each other.you should go out with your friends have some fun,YOU should go and talk to a couslor.doese she have any close friends she talks too?well i wish you luck.god be with you.

I&#8217;m gonna take a break from this for a few days. After yesterday I had a huge headache and my right eye started to twitch, a sure sign that I&#8217;m stressing too much. I find you hugely stressful. I want you to consider this. I don&#8217;t know you, I don&#8217;t live with you, all you are to me is words on a page and the energy you put out is giving me a headache, stress, and lowering my energy level enough for me to need to draw away, what kind of effect does the energy you put out there have on your wife? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

I started a new thread here ...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=013178

Discussion about what is painful for women during sex. Maybe will offer more input/insight.

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

Jamie,
Thanks again for you time. And yes you can remove some of your post...sorry it took me a little time to get back, but I had a bit of unexpected work related travel.

Your point vs. my intent about the "it hurts" question is a bit confusing perhaps. It's not a "performance" issue during the act on her part. Besides her current inattention, it's her words and past hypocritical actions that bother me. It "stings" bad to say "it hurts" after 8 years together (mind you without even a peep about it during all that time) then to go do what she did! To me, at least, she's used this as a "weapon". Maybe I wasn't very clear about that.

As for the Big-O question…………it’s NEVER been a problem. Mostly giving oral on my part to reach it, which I had been doing very often. Other than the size issue and differences in drive, she has made no complaints.

Maybe I need to simplify this a little, rather than restate all the “background noise”. I can forgive her for what she's done…I can and will. But I (yes, I!) must have future protection. Call me selfish if you must, but I will not be treated the way I’ve been treated in the past and get the empty, lonely, emotionless marriage I’m in right now. It's just not worth it. A marriage that is not intimate is a cause for alarm and action. That’s what I’m trying to fix.

“And then there’s this…”: you make a valid point about me not posting for others. This not an excuse perhaps, but my reasoning for not posting is that I don’t really feel like I have a lot to offer to anyone right now on the advice front. I mean I don’t feel qualified to give anyone advice when my life is so screwed up!!! Your feedback – reality check, maybe - on this is appreciated.

THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]</small>

The answer to the "why" in that comment your wife makes &#8220;it hurts&#8221;, might take a while to get to find an answer to. I can see how you might feel that she's used this as a "weapon&#8221;. Remember though that the way something feels, isn&#8217;t always the way something is.

Blow her mind. Focus on the long-term goal.

Proverbs 11:25 &#8220;The generous soul will itself be made fat, and the one freely watering [others] will himself also be freely watered.&#8221;

Philippians 2:3-4 &#8220;doing nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with lowliness of mind considering that the others are superior to YOU, keeping an eye, not in personal interest upon just YOUR own matters, but also in personal interest upon the needs of the others.

Remember that regardless of what you both have done to each other, she&#8217;s still in the same boat with you. She hasn&#8217;t quite dove toward the shore yet either. If she is as beautiful as you suggest, I&#8217;m sure she could find someone else to fill the role of wage earner, if that were really all you mean to her. Think about the next time you look at her. She is still there, she doesn&#8217;t have to be, ponder on why but rather than playing the old negatives tapes you&#8217;ve been holding on to, try to think through the deeper reasons why she is still there.

I remember being deeply hurt by my husband and pulling away emotionally. I can remember doing it in my mind to survive. I died, and walked, and talked, but I was dead inside. He terrified me. I never pulled away sexually, but every woman is different in how she copes. I was hurt, I was angry, I was cold, and I can see now that my emotional needs were being met elsewhere so maybe I had an EA. But to be honest I&#8217;m not sure how I would have managed without someone in the universe telling me that I was special to him, and that I had value. I stayed with my husband though, and some of that has to do with the deep commitment I held to myself to follow through with my commitment to him. But further down under all the pain and crap, I was his friend. I loved him. I wanted to continue loving him. Sometimes it was difficult to see that through the layers of pain and years of heartache, but it was there.

But, enough about me, what I&#8217;m trying to do is give you another way to look at your wife&#8217;s motives.

She&#8217;s still there. She doesn&#8217;t have to stay. Look for the positive reasons that she is still there.

Also, please don&#8217;t brush aside my suggestions that you give some consideration to what she might have gotten from the affairs she had beyond the obvious. There may be something that she needed that she wasn&#8217;t getting from you. Be as analytical as you can be in this consideration. Most likely the real answer to that might not be one you will ascertain straight away. It may take some time. Apparently, time is something you&#8217;ve got as long as you are both there.

I was looking at your wife&#8217;s list of EN&#8217;s last night.

1. Time for herself.
2. Help me out around the house more.
3. Understand that I've tried.
4. Let's spend our time together focusing on the family.

Jake, I am an introvert, a big time introvert. At times this can be hard to spot because I can be funny, and in a group of two or three, if no one else is carrying the conversation, I can keep everyone pretty entertained for a while. When I was more emotionally healthy I was a good hostess, putting effort into the right combination of food, company, and activities. Very responsive in terms of listening to others, seeing them, and hearing them. BUT. I am also easily overwhelmed by others. Too much going on tires me out. A great deal of conflict sucks up my energy. Sometimes human contact and conversation actually becomes physically painful to me and I can become quite unwell. I need a lot of time alone to recharge. Interaction tires me out. Most people I know find this very frustrating and hard to understand. One minute I appear to be the perfect woman &#8211; suddenly I&#8217;m tired and need to end the conversation and be alone. I don&#8217;t know if any of this sounds like your wife or not.

Do you think your wife is introverted or extraverted?

Introverts often:
· Have quiet energy
· Listen more than talk
· Think quietly inside their head
· Think, then act
· Feel comfortable being alone
· Are considered pretty private people
· Have good powers of concentration
· Prefer to focus on one thing at a time
· Are self-contained and reserved

Extraverts often:
· Have high energy
· Talk more than listen
· Think out loud
· Act, then think
· Like to be around people a lot
· Are easy to get to know
· Can sometimes be easily distracted
· Prefer to do lots of things at once
· Are outgoing & enthusiastic

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

I found a comment that I thought might be worth you consideration.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "when a man fulfills a woman's needs...most of the time, a woman responds by feeling prettier, wanting more sex, more domestic, and wants to spend more time recreationally with this man. That just happens to be what most men want in their most important emotional needs. So when a man gives to a woman it brings out her "giver". And they both get what they want.

"Men do not react that way. When a woman does a good Plan A....most of time a man wants "more!". More more more. Rather than bringing out the "giver", it brings out his "taker" and he will then raise the stakes and further define what he wants. Like for instance when I was dressing nicely everyday and H didn't want me to change out of those things until I went to bed, or bathing before bed....he was futher defining what attractive spouse requirements he wanted. But it did not encourage him to fulfill my needs or examine his actions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was going to say something to you along these lines myself. This is often why women begin to feel &#8220;All tried out.&#8221;

Most women are innately givers. Fact is though, you might not be aware of how much she was giving, or how hard she was trying in the past. You may have continued to raise the benchmark until she could push herself no further. That is just one possibility for her withdrawal. Might not be on target but just something worth throwing out there.

Harley on the Halfshell

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

If you can afford it, remove the obstacle she's putting before you...cleaning house, for example. Hire a cleaning service to come in once a week or once every other week. The couple of hundred bucks a month you spend is way cheaper than any divorce attorney or the years of support you'll end up paying. I know this sounds like a quick fix, but it's a small thing you can do for her. Don't tell her it's so she can spend more time with you, though. She won't go for that. Tell her you just really would like for her to have a little luxury once in a while and you enjoy making her happy like that.

Bearable,
Been there, did that. We had a nice, older lady come in once a week to clean the house (I think she needed the money anyway, she was a widow and I paid her cash). But this never changed my wife's behavior. In fact in some ways she was worse. I had to stop this because of the financial situation since she quit her job.

By the way, she did it again! I opened up, we talked, I got promises and she broke them in less than a week. And she's totally out of touch with the impact on me.

I'm lost!!!!!!!!