Warning!!! - This is a bitter pill.

I tried again to talk to her. Couldn't even get a Plan A/B off the ground. Basically, her attitude is a "here's what I'm gonna do, if it doesn't make you happy that's your problem."

What do you do when your wifes EMOTIONAL NEEDS are to not (repeat, NOT) have meet your EMOTIONAL NEEDS?

I've searched to site but can't seem to find anything concerning emotional needs is conflict. Other than withdrawal or patiently waiting topics I'm kinda lost. This has been going on so long that I'm feeling rather foolish.

Whata you make of this? During a discussion yesterday my W and I had the following exchanges:

First part
Me:
“We are not spending enough time together. How can we rebuild our relationship if we don’t work on it together? We’ve discussed and agreed many times in the past going out on a date once a month. But that’s not happening.”
W:
“WE DON’T HAVE THE @#^% MONEY! Maybe if you wouldn't spend $40 or $50 a week going to lunch with your work buddies then maybe we could.”
Me, after opening the checkbook:
“Help me understand that! I’ve got the money. I’ve always had the money. Let’s do it!”
W:
“@^&&#!”

Second part
W:
“You’re asking for too much. I won’t bow down before you (i.e., meet my needs) until you meet my needs! What’s in it for me? Don’t I have a right to be happy too?”
Me:
“I thought we were going to find something we could both agree too?”
W:
“Yeah, but it has to be something achievable.”
Me:
“Okay, I agree. Doesn’t it also have to be something that works?”
W:
“A-C-H-I-E-V-A-B-L-E”.

Third part
W:
“Plan A, Plan B? Jesus, you’re threatening me again!”
Me:
“Threatening? How?”
W:
“So, if I don’t do what you want then you pack up and leave.”
Me:
“No. If WE don’t do what WE agree to then WE separate for a period of time, cool off, then come back together to decide what WE’re going to do.”
W:
“Same @$#^@ thing! WE DON’T HAVE THE MONEY!”

<small>[ November 21, 2002, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]</small>

Jamie,
I am totally new to this website and just found it because I am having a problem. I have been reading your conversation with Jake and really admire how you are trying to give him the female perspective.

Your quote says When a woman does a good Plan A....most of time a man wants "more!". More more more. Rather than bringing out the "giver", it brings out his "taker" and he will then raise the stakes and further define what he wants. But it did not encourage him to fulfill my needs or examine his actions.

This is my very same problem. I give my H what he wants (sex) and as soon as he is satiated, he has no need for me and he ignores me until he wants more sex. (See my post where I tried to start a new thread under Negotiating in Marriage.}

So, is withholding sex an appropriate way for me to try to get him to focus on meeting my needs? He met every single one of my needs very well, astoundingly well, before we married, when he had to "work" for sex by courting me. We were much happier then. Once we married and he was in the bed every night with me, well, he decided (I guess) that he didn't need to bother with the affection anymore because he could have sex for free whenever he wanted it. Trying to meet his ENs, I gave him the sex.

Then he decided to skip the foreplay and the afterplay (and my orgasm) and just go straight for his satisfaction, then he asks me to rub his back, and then he goes to sleep.

He's alienating me so much I get angry writing this.

When I ask my H to meet my needs, he tells me I should appreciate what he does. Problem is, what he does is not what I need. What I need is different from what he thinks I need and it is not the same as what he needs. But he does not get this. He does one thing like pay for a new roof or take out the trash and that is supposed to count as my "affection" for the rest of my life? Well it doesn't!! And then he gets mad that I don't "appreciate" him. What does he think all those blow jobs are?

It just seems that giving more results in getting less when it is a woman giving to a man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Jake:
Your wife keeps saying you don't have enough money to do certain things but you keep denying that. Yet earlier on you said you could not afford to keep the maid. Do you have plenty of money, or only enough money for what YOU want to spend it on?

Does she have any money or do you have control of all of it? You sounded very smug when you announced that she quit her job so now you are the one earning all the money. If you are controlling her by withholding money or making all the decisions where to spend it, I can understand how she would be unwilling to do any giving at all. She is more like a prisoner than a wife at that point. She'll have more money under a 50/50 split than if she stays with you, probably.

Pippa:

Gosh, you’re a judgmental one! You concluded all that with just “one little peek into my window”?

Look, I do value your opinion and please don’t think me a complete jerk - just a little bit of one, maybe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> !

I do control the money at this point. And I’ve taken absolutely no material necessity from my wife. Admittedly, she may disagree with this, but professional manicures, adding a heater to the swimming pool and a new living room suit just aren’t possible right now......no matter how secure it makes her feel. Call me "smug" if you like, but I will find a way to come together with her if she will. But not going to lunch at work is not the problem - I have the money, it's available right now. Problem is she WANTS these other things more perhaps. But you know, we still live in the same fine home, she still drives the same car (a rather expensive one at that - RX300), and I am still asking her to go out with me.

Now, let me ask you this. Why should I pay for a maid to clean our home while my wife is here and not working outside the home? I do make a fairly nice income, but I don’t grow money-trees. Given the situation, I had to make choices. Rest your mind at ease however – I am not out throwing my money around on myself. Rather, I’m taking care of my family first. Perhaps you missed my point about the withdrawal that was made by her?

If you want to know more go to the Emotional Needs forum and look up “EN Conflict”. Tells a bit more of my story.

Enough of me! Let’s talk about you.

Pippa, honestly, lumping “all men” together with a statement like “....when a woman does a good Plan A....most of time a man wants "more!", concerns me. Frankly, it’s a borderline version of bigotry. Not “all men” are like this, though granted some are. My suggestion is take us one at a time and don’t give up on us. We’re not all hairy apes!

Reviewing what you wrote about your sexual problems with H, it’s clear that he’s out of touch with your ENs. How do you know that all he wants from you is sex? Are you sure that’s the root cause of why he climax’s and then “leaves”? Here’s just a few signs that it’s “just the sex he want”, strictly from a mans perspective:

1. Is he faithful?
2. Does he ogle or “drool” over other women?
3. Does he do the “jock” thing (i.e., run with the buddies, sports, hunt, fish) where he could brag?
4. Is he the least bit romantic? Affectionate?

My guess is that if he’s doing 1, 2 and/or 3 he’s just using you as an outlet for sex. But if he’s doing #4 as well then you got some hope. A lot of guys, me included, are physical creatures who connect love with a physical act. Whether he’s doing 1-3 or not, if he’s not doing any of 4 then he’s got a serious problem with you. Please don’t take that the wrong way – it may not be anything you can do or anything you did at all. Maybe it’s him?

You and I are in the same boat about our spouses meeting needs. The one thing I’ve learned is that it’s pointless to ask. Even more pointless, and destructive, to expect a promise to have your needs met. Want affection, try this:

– Unannounced to him, get a babysitter. When he gets home be waiting for him with the lights low, soft music, rose petals all over the bed and floor, and you shower him with affection and romance. Drag it out! In fact, move around, slow/stop type approach, tease him and don’t let him climax for say an hour. Kill him with it! Then as soon as he’s climaxed, go right back. But no more BJs only. Intercourse!

Do this and you’ll woo him. An old saying I love is, “If you want, then be!” So, you bring the romance and affection to the R. Try this from time to time for the next month or so. If he hasn’t turned more toward you by then........well, then you know. Let me know if you decide to try this or something like it and how it works out. (I’m really interested because I’ve tried this and it didn’t work!!!!)

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]</small>

Jake--
As far as men always wanting "more more more" and not reciprocating--I was agreeing with the quote in Jamie's Nov. 9 post--not originating that idea! So if I'm being judgmental, ok, but I'm in the company of plenty of others making the same judgment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

About your situation, I am wondering, when W quit working, how was it determined that the maid and manicures had to go, but your lunches out got to stay?

I assume it was your unilateral decsion because you feel entitled to make all the money decisions because you earn all the money.

But if your W had made the decision, would she have done the equivalent of what you did, and kept the maid and manicures, and made you eat bologna on white at your desk everyday?

Why not follow POJA and decide together where to spend the $$?

When you make all the decisions by yourself, even if you are kind and generous about it (which it does not exactly sound like you are at this point) she probably still feels disrespected--you are making her play the role of a child, not a wife. And your decisions seem punitive--you drop the maid and make her clean the toilets, yet you allow the luxury of a pool heater (but not the luxury of a manicure). Talk about making judgments! Goodness! How would you feel if she had the job, and you stayed home, and she gave you no input into where money was spent? What if you said, let's hire a maid, and she said, no, I want you to clean the toilets since you sit home all day! Would she be justified in that? Would you feel that you were being punished ?

As for my "sexual" problem, can you explain what you mean when you say "go back" after the climax? Back to what?

Also, why do you say "no more BJ's, intercourse!" If I am supposed to be meeting his EN for sex the way he wants it, and that is the way he wants it, why are you saying no more BJs? What's the difference (to a man) between a BJ and intercourse, anyway?

I am clueless and I really do need a man's perspective on this, so thank you!

Pippa:

When my W quit work it was totally unannounced to me in advanced, we had not discussed it at all. Please recall that just before she quit that an important bill had gone unpaid by her, even though it was well within our budget to pay it. She “concealed” from me the true gravity of our financial situation. I understand that her boss was a real jerk, but you don’t quit until you have another job to start right away. Then her choice to sit around in a “vege” state while not looking for another job compelled me to make some tough choices of my own. I had to protect myself and my children. She made the “unilateral decision”!

When she quit her job I was left with a situation in which my take-home pay was just $68 per month above our expenses. So, you see “luxury” items such as manicures and the maid had to go. Also, her statement about spending $40 to $50 per week on my lunches is an intentional mis-characterization on her part, to some extent. Pippa, I have gone without lunch entirely on more occasions than I can count. And many of the times that go out I’m taking my entire department out for a business related discussion (which I turn in on an expense report and my employer reimburses me for it). She knows this, but still chooses to attack me about it. This is pure, simple bruised ego and petty jealously isn’t it?

Also, I did NOT want a heater installed in the pool (which did not have a heater – unlike what you took from my post). She wanted this! I caught h-e-double toothpicks when I said no to this.

To get through this god-awful mess, I faced some tough decisions. I have sold off stock and inherited property just to make ends meet and keep from having my wages garnished. And all this time she sits by the pool, talks on the phone, and whatever else. She’s told me she simply must have some time for herself.

POJA? We had a joint agreement and she has broken it. Furthermore, she refused to make a new one that that is agreeable to me. Remember the term “joint”. Although she’d never agree to this assessment, the effect of what she wants will have on me is:

1. I get up each morning, get the kids ready for school and daycare. She stays in bed if she wants.
2. I drop the kids off and go to work.
3. All I earn I make hers just the same.
4. She stays at home, goes out as she pleases. Lives in the house she wants. Drives what she wants.
5. She will pick up the kids at after school/daycare by 6:00 if she done with what she’s doing. If not I have to be sure to be off work to get them.
6. I come home after work and help her with the kids, the housework, etc.
7. We’ll go out, make love, be together if she feels like it.
8. Next day I start all over again.

I don’t consider what I’ve written above to be much of an exaggeration. Overly dramatic maybe, but not an exaggeration. So, tell me Pippa, what real choices did I have to do what I’ve done?

Disrespect? Trading places? Punished? To me this is not about being “justified” in mis-treating someone. What I’m aiming for is fixing my marriage. If “fixed” means something different to her, and it’s the reality that it currently is, then she needs to leave.

Now for your questions about sex.

What I mean by "go back" after the climax is just that – go back and get a second climax. “Sweetness” is a dish best served in double!

“..........no more BJ's, intercourse!" I must have missed this. Let me get this right – his EN is to have a BJ? Nothing else? Pippa, I must admit that that I don’t understand your man. You got trouble on your hands my dear.

“What's the difference (to a man) between a BJ and intercourse, anyway?” I can speak for myself. Oral sex has a tendency to lack intimacy, particularly if that’s all that’s going on. You must be terribly lonely! Intercourse on the other hand is very intimate. I could quote a lot of therapist stuff to you, but won’t. I always felt closer to my W starting with foreplay, then oral, and then intercourse. With our “size” issue I always made a point to be very oral with her (besides, I love giving it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ) ) so that she was well lubricated and ready for me. What a lot of men don't realize is that they'll "get off better" if they focus on getting their mate off more than themselves. If he’s not interested in giving oral or having intercourse, flat out ask why. Do it nicely, of course, in an appropriate setting. An old problem solving technique I use is “ask ‘Why?’ five times”. By that fifth ‘Why?’ you’re at the root cause of the problem. Pippa, my best guess is that he does not find you attractive or does not lust for you anymore. Also, some people just have lower sex drives. Think back to when he was pleasing you consistently well – what was different?

I do encourage you NOT to use sex as a “weapon” to get what you need. Refusing sex will absolutely, positively tick most men off beyond description. Take it from one who’s been there. Do this and he will find so many faults, real or imagined, that will make him question why he’s with you.

In closing I be frank with you. If his key EN is only to receive oral sex from you and not meet your needs in the long-term as well, then you must consider your chances at being happy with this man. You can’t “make someone change, make someone love you, or make someone meet your needs”.

Please let me know how things work out

<small>[ November 23, 2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]</small>