It's weird. Everything seems so peaceful. <p>I've been separated 18 months. I've been divorced 9 months. I just got my money judgement for my half of the real estate. So debts are paid off and there is money in the bank for the first time in ... forever. <p>I just found out I am losing my job in the next 2-3 weeks, and I'm totally calm about that. I live in a house where I don't pay rent or utilities because of a single parent family program for veteran's families, and can stay here for a couple years. My only bill right now is my car payment. <p>I've been with my boyfriend for 13 months. We still don't talk about marriage at all, but we've started talking about living together in about two years. There is the property I inherited when my dad died that I never wanted to build on, but if I could buy the adjoining property, where there used to be a homestead, I wouldn't mind building on that. So we've been talking about that lately. <p>With the program I'm in, my boyfriend cannot spend the night, or I could get evicted if they found out. With his work schedule, in construction, he's working from sunup to sundown, and all we have is weekends together, if that. It is hard on us both, because even after a year, we are still "twitterpated", passionately in love with each other. The only time we come close to a fight is when I get upset because of a 'trigger' he's unknowingly pulled. I clam up until I've rationalized that HE is NOT my EX and whatever he did was totally without malice, then I can tell him why I got upset. <p>We talk on the phone every day. When possible, we spend most of the weekend together. We are both big on Affection, SF and Honesty. I would wager we have matching top 3 EN's. <p>What am I missing? Am I in the fog still? Do I see red flags where there aren't any, or don't see the ones waving? We are not ready to live together *right now* and I know we have to discuss A LOT before the next big step. I don't feel like we are rushing right in. Everything seems right. I have a gut feeling that he will change his mind about not wanting to be married, in time, just like I'm sure that I will change my mind. For me, right now, marriage would just be a tax penalty. I could not love him more, or be more committed to staying together the rest of our lives.<p>I think I'm apprehensive about living together because that changes things so much. I want it, and fear it, all at once. He has never lived with a woman, and doesn't think our relationship will change much. I have lived with a man for many years, and watched that relationship deteriorate to an abysmal situation. So I worry that neither one of us is looking at this realisticly and objectively. <p>Which leads me to why I am writing all of you!   ;} <p>HELP!!?!<p>[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: ex-Princess Buttercup ]</p>

I used to believe in the concept of living together as a preview to marriage. I have since changed my mind. <p>My reason why:<p>I lived with my H prior to M. We had two children during this time frame. We were going to plan it at the last minute, No real date set. H wanted brother to be best man. Brother was in military, and had to get leave approved). We had decided that since H's brother was trying to come home for our 2nd child's christianing, we would get married then. About one month before H's brohter was supposed to come home on leave, H gets cold feet. (around the same time H met a girl). Christianing comes and goes, we gon't get M. Now we are fighting over this girl who is "just a friend". H moves out. He didn't care that we had 2 children. About 6 mo. later H is acing like he wants to get back together. (made many mistakes during the next 2 years that may have prevented current situation). In my opinion our not being married made it easy to walk out. One comment he made was "we are not Married, so you have no say in how I spend my money". We had agreed to combine our incomes as if we were married. So he was spending not only his paycheck but my paycheck on his fun and girlfriend. He hinted many times about our living together again. At this point, I told him, no, the only way I will live whith a man again is if I am married to him. Money was not the only problem. I honestly believe that because we were not married at that time, that he felt that he could behave as a single man, and I felt that because we had a family, he should behave as a family man.<p>This is my situation and why I do not believe in living together before marriage.

I am living with my fiance. We are both divorced - ex's put us through h***. I have a 13 year old D. We know all about those triggers. Pre conditioned responses. It is hard sometimes. I also go through a period where I mull it over before I can think rationally again.<p>Living together for us was/is good for us. We had issues that are now behind us. He became an instant father when a 12 year old moved in. We both believe in marriage in spite of what we went through. We live together as a couple with the intent to marry - we are getting married in October. There was a factor that was and still is so important to me. When we still had separate households he would come over every night and we would talk, watch TV, snuggle and get close. We would do activities together on the weekend and he helped my daughter with her homework. He would go home at night - sometimes early morning. But from the first time we had sexual relations he never went home aferwards. That was/is so important to me. I do not know if I could have handled it if he would have gotten up and left afterwards. When I had to leave my home it made sense to move in with him. All my animals where already moved over (dogs and horses). For us it worked well. I have never been happier than I am right now. The feeling of being content, mellow and relaxed is normal now. Anxiety attacks and feelings of panic are rare and when they do occur they go away fairly quickly.

Thank you for your responses Sue with hope and misfitacres ... I think I need to reflect on my own words "We are not ready to live together *right now* and I know we have to discuss A LOT before the next big step."<p>What are the reasons we're not ready RIGHT NOW? What is this LOT that needs to be discussed? That might clue me in to why I'm so apprehensive. I will throw together some ideas.

If you are not ready but everything seems peaceful then don't worry about it and enjoy yourself. I was ready to move in with my fiance and we feel it helped us get over ingrained issues that had nothing to do with each other but effected each other due to how we eached handled the situations. It took me awhile to except the peacefulness so I do understand what you are saying. I was looking for something, I saw no red flags either but I was convincing myself I was missing something. I guess I was finding it hard to believe that after the way my ex and his family treated me that I could be accepted so easily and safely into a new family. It felt odd at first and I was looking for anything that confirmed it wasn't true. But it is true. I am safe right now. I feel so content and relaxed and it is feeling normal not odd now.<p>Relax, enjoy yourself and don't worry. If there are red flags they will show up since you are not in a hurry to take the next big step.

This is the outline I'm trying to write so that I can figure out what I need to discuss with him ... comments welcome:<p>A few things I've been trying to work out in my head:<p>** Why do I worry so much about things changing when we live together?
** Why specifically do I know we are not ready to live together NOW?
** What do I expect to happen or to change BEFORE we live together?

No real advice. I just thought I’d share my story, in case it helps.<p>I was in a long relationship where we never actually moved in together, but there were times when we spent nearly every night together and did many other things together. We didn’t discuss marriage. I fantasized about marriage, but I knew even then that my fantasy was about his pledge to love, honor, and cherish me – stated before witnesses so he couldn’t back out. I knew that I liked the idea of marriage because, in my fantasy, it made up for all the things that were missing in our relationship: caring, protection, sex, respect, intimacy. But I knew it was just a fantasy, so I never pushed the marriage idea. When he moved to another city, I had to face the fact that nothing was going to change, and so I didn’t move with him, and our relationship ended.<p>My current relationship is so much better. There’s everything I need in it. I spent the first months of the new relationship being angry with the old boyfriend. Meeting my needs is obviously pretty easy, so why did he behave as if it were the unthinkable? A year into the relationship, we both took jobs in another city and decided to move in together. I was pretty nervous. What if we hated it immediately? But he assured me that even if that happened, it wouldn’t be the end of the world. We’d deal with it.<p>Two years later, we decided to buy a house together. Again, I was wary and nervous. Such a big step, and even harder to run away from than a lease. But he was reassuring. And the first two years of living together had been great, so there weren’t any red flags. <p>So now we’ve owned a house together for almost two years, and have lived together for almost four. It’s still great. We never discuss marriage. My feeling is: everyone says being married and living together are not the same thing, and I believe them. Therefore, I’m not willing to risk marriage changing our relationship in a bad way. Everything is so great, why rock the boat? The thought of getting married turns me off for so many reasons. I realize that without it, we don’t have the “glue” we might need in some future time of trouble, but for now the comfort I feel outweighs whatever potential and ill-defined risk lies in our future. <p>If I’ve understood your post, you won’t move in together for another two years? Don’t fret about it now. Let your thoughts and feelings evolve on their own, and in two years, you’ll know what to do.<p>Best of luck.

Thank you, curious.<p>Here is a thread from March-April about basically the same thing ... but at the time I didn't know what it was that I was worried about. I tend to self-analyze and talk through a problem until I find the solution, or often, get down to the REAL problem underneath the surface issue. There is a lot more of my story on Emotional Needs ... I worry too much, am too critical, and make something out of nothing at times ... so when I see a "red flag" I have to step back and figure out if it's real or imagined.<p>Yes, our move would be in two years. I want to get through a two-year college plan I'm starting this fall before taking on that kind of financial (and other) strain and stress. And I want to see what our relationship is like in another year. The first year has been relatively free of turbulence.

Thank you for the link. If the issues you mention in the link are still relevant, then I do see a few red flags. Not deal breakers, just indications that you might want to add more criteria to your list before you get move in together.<p>1. Religion. I do believe that two people with different religious beliefs can make happy lives together. But only if they commit to making lives together with both religions. That is, if you're hoping he'll "see the light" some day, that probably won't work. I think the rule should be: Don't try to have a life together unless you can both commit to supporting each others' religious beliefs. For example, if a Jew and a Christian were going to marry, the Christian would do whatever he/she could to support the spouse's Jewish faith, while maitaining his/her own Christian faith. And vice versa. Some people can do that, but some people absolutely cannot. Will he support you in your growing Christianity? Can you progress as a Christian and still be satisfied with his agnosticism/atheism. It's a lot more than tolerance (not condemning him). <p>2. Responsibility. The rule is: never commit to a man who's never lived on his own. (Actually, the rule is never date a man who lives with his mother, but since you're already dating, you'll have to adjust.) I honestly recommend that you not move in with him until he's lived on his own, paying bills, keeping house, etc. for at least a year. And even then, I'd keep my eyes open for symptoms that he's just going through the motions until he can get you in the house to take all that stuff over for him. You see, that's why we have the original rule. If you don't start dating them until after they've moved out, you know they're not just putting on an act. <p>These points address the living together question as much as the marriage question. So you've probably already resolved them in your own mind. Just the same, I really think these are important rules.

curious, thanks again.<p>On religion, I feel that support/respect for my beliefs and wishes is more important than him becoming a Christian or going to church with me. I have been agnostic and aetheist myself in the not too distant past, so I can understand his viewpoint. It took A LOT to make me a believer and I don't expect or require that of him. As far as marriage goes, that's something he will have to decide. What good is a vow before God if you don't believe He exists? In that context, my own marriage ceremony meant nothing to me. My XH claims to be a believer, but his actions have gone against what I've come to know of the Bible so far.<p>Oh, he KNOWS I want him to live alone before we live together. I have heard a few excuses, valid reasons he hasn't moved out, complaints about living at home, but nothing has been done. I'm not going to find him a house to rent, or otherwise enable him on this one. If it was so rough at home, he could make something else work. He lived with a roommate for a while, that didn't "work out" but I haven't pried into that.<p>Of course, my XH lived alone when we started dating, moved in with me soon after, did housework and such UNTIL we were married, then all of a sudden his desire for me to become mother-like reared it's ugly head. So him living alone isn't so much a determiner for me now. My XH moved back in with his parents in 12/00 when he could have been living in the marital home all this time, but would have had to keep house himself. At least my BF does his own cooking and cleaning and laundry and such, and his mother is altogether different from my XMIL.<p>There are definitely some "responsibility" issues I want to investigate and discuss before we move on!!

Have you and your boyfriend explored the Unitarian Church? I don't know much about it, but my understanding is that they're pretty flexible about individual beliefs, and they like to explore ideas. That might give the two of you a way to share your spirituality without embracing something you don't really believe. And it would indulge your enjoyment in in-depth exploration of ideas. (Apologies to any Unitarians out there if I've misrepresented their church!)<p>As far as marriage vows not meaning much if you don't believe in God, I'm afraid that doesn't hold much water with me. One of the things I like about marriage ceremonies is that you are making a vow before your community of friends and family, who in turn vow to support you in your vows to each other. I suppose many people don't take that part of it seriously, but I do. I am an atheist, but my vow is still valid. It's just a vow to a person/persons, not to God.<p>All in all, however, I think you're doing the right thing by asking questions and setting criteria before moving ahead. You have plenty of time to watch this relationship unfold and grow in your own right and will be able to make any future commitment with your eyes wide open. I think that's great.

ex-Princess Buttercup:<p>
On religion, I feel that support/respect for my beliefs and wishes is more important than him becoming a Christian or going to church with me. I have been agnostic and aetheist myself in the not too distant past, so I can understand his viewpoint. It took A LOT to make me a believer and I don't expect or require that of him. As far as marriage goes, that's something he will have to decide. What good is a vow before God if you don't believe He exists? In that context, my own marriage ceremony meant nothing to me. My XH claims to be a believer, but his actions have gone against what I've come to know of the Bible so far.<p>TR- I have to comment on this...yes you can love him as He is, but eventually as you grow closer to God this will cause problems..being unequally yoked..as you will see you'll want and desire to be with a man who you can share your faith with
one whom you can pray with, and what about when you want to go to church, or to a church function
and you don't because he doesn't want to go? Will you be able to stand your ground and go anyway?
or will he guilt you into not going and staying with him or doing something else he wants to do??<p>As you read your bible and grow in Christ, you will come to fully understand what it means to be equally yoked within a relationship..if you have different beliefs about Christ, and who He is-
The bible is very specific about this..a person who does not believe in Christ is of the devil, a person who believes in Christ is of God. When you became a believe of Christ you became a child of God, making God your Spiritual father..and those who do not believe Christ is the Son of God who died and was raised from the dead..for our sins is
not a Child of God..so therefore they are of their father the devil, the father of lies..<p>Yes, many will be offended by these words because the Cross and the Written Word of God (the Bible) offends many people..But it is supposed to offend them because if it didn't the Holy Spirit couldn't work in their hearts to teach them the truth..to allow them to face their own sins..to convict their souls..that they need a Savior..if you are not for Christ, your against Him.."Anti"Christ..
You can't be both...it's either one or the other..
there is no in between..<p>Now, as a relatively new Child of God may find this hard to grasp..(I did) but I've learned that it's easy to put a relationship with a flesh and blood person before your relationship with Christ..<p>the pressures may not be verbal, but they will be underlying feelings you have about wanting to go do things w/ your Christian friends and being active in church and staying and spending time w/ the man in your life..and when you choose the activites surrounding church..it can cause problems because your making a very active life with people you have a spiritual bond with..and if you choose to stay and spend time w/ the man in your life and not go do things your heart desires spending time w/ those who love Christ..He will begin to feel neglected..and put off..and the internal pressures become even stronger..because your desire to become closer to God will become stronger..<p>At the same time you can't force him to go to church, you can't force him to enjoy the things of God, because He doesn't understand them..but you don't want him going just to please you either
because it will be fake..You'll eventually desire to have a relationship with a man who will pray with you, who will be the Spiritual Leader in your home..one who will read and study God's word with you..who will share Christ with you..<p>I know my ex went to church w/ me before we married, he promised to do bible studies with me, and even did a couple with me BEFORE we married..
but, he wouldn't go to church without me, he wouldn't study God's word without me..He didn't have that desire in his heart..but, I overlooked that because he went to church..and I assumed that would change..BIG MISTAKE!! It changed alright..
He quit going to church, didn't want to study the bible AT ALL..and didn't want me to go either..and made it clear that if I went it was only because I wanted to be single..when he would be home he would make it clear that if I went to church he'd be gone back out of town before I got back from church..so I'd better take the kids with me..but if I didn't go..then he'd stay another night..
He made me choose between spending time with HIM
and spending time with God which was the desire of my heart..and it got worse over the years..the more I felt I was being forced to choose between the two...a man who was only providing financially
and God My Savior..and it became a battle within me..to either choose one or the other..and well,
I didn't want to give up either..I wanted my ex to share my relationship w/ Christ..but He couldn't or wouldn't..so I had to make the choice..and I chose God..<p>I share this with you because I know the internal struggle you will feel in this relationship..and in order for you to make an informed decision you need to know the facts...and having been there already..and in some ways being there again..I fully understand..the choices that need to be made..and the struggles that lie ahead..depending upon the choices we make now..but I already know what I need to do based on those choices..even though I know it will hurt..

TR - whew, lots to think about. I am working on a list of things I want to discuss with him, so I will make sure that I go beyond basic 'respect for others beliefs' and get down into this issue ... yes it does matter to me what he thinks of me getting involved with church activities and such that I've not really done since we started dating. Right now, Saturday night/Sunday morning is my only weekly time with him, and I have stopped going to church. Occasionally I miss it, but I also enjoy being out on the lake fishing Sunday morning and can talk to God any time and any place.<p>Thanks again for the input -- you're good at this. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

ex-Princess Buttercup:
yes it does matter to me what he thinks of me getting involved with church activities and such that I've not really done since we started dating.
TR- I understand that..which is why I bring it up..I've been there..<p>Right now, Saturday night/Sunday morning is my only weekly time with him, and I have stopped going to church. Occasionally I miss it, but I also enjoy being out on the lake fishing Sunday morning and can talk to God any time and any place.<p>TR-I understand you can talk to God anyplace and any time, as we are to pray without ceasing and well were not ALWAYS in church..maybe this is something you can poja? Go to an early service at church and then go fishing? If you always spend time out on the lake fishing, or doing things with him on the weekends, when are you getting fed spiritually so that you can grow?? Yes, you can read your bible, but there is something more that you get out of the teachings of a good Pastor/Teacher that you don't get in your own studies..and the fellowship that you have when you go to sunday school and group bible studies..<p>
Thanks again for the input -- you're good at this. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I just hope it helps you look at your choices..