I am 20 years old and I am currently living with my boyfriend...we have not been dating long but we are very much in love. I know that living together before marriage is supposedly a big no-no.....but what I want to know is WHY? I am a pretty religious person and I understand God's reason's....I know that should probably be enough for me but it's just not...I need more info (blame it on my age I guess). Any advice any of you are willing to give will be helpful. We do plan on getting married but not any time soon. With a mother like star*fish I know I should have all this figured out, but I don't. I want personal horror stories, statistics, ANYTHING. Just tell me why I shouldn't be doing this. Honestly living apart from eachother is no big deal...we're just doing it to save money. So anyway...please help me out!!! Thank you!

I think living together with a boyfriend for short periods of time can be a learning experiance just like learning to get along with a roomate, etc. When it gets bad is this:

1. When you have no plans on making that relationship permanent and yet you severely limit your dating experiances which are actually learning experiances, for YEARS, wasting your precious time with only ONE person.

2. If you become pregnant and unmarried. Then your life will become hell.

3. If you are young and limit yourself to that one man. (you can break up and move out, however...)

4. If your finances get intertwined without a legal agreement of some sort.

5. If he is a bad influence on your life in any way such as causing you to drink, drop out of college, take drugs, have risky sex or have sex without good forms of birth control, to subjugate your life to him, to give up your friends, to dominate your time, or do anything illegal....

6. If you "clip your own wings" by focusing on this man rather than "fighting" your way through life on your own determining "YOUR OWN" destiny and finding out WHAT YOU WERE MEANT TO DO IN LIFE. If you cut short this growth process in yourself or grasp onto a man in order to "hide" from the growth process, you will never forgive yourself later for the wasted time. You need to learn to become ALL you can be as a person and test your limits and learn about YOUR passions and talents. If living together allows this to happen, good. If it does not, that would be bad.

7. If it diverts you from YOUR path in life...


I lived together with a couple men. One, it did not work out and we quit the living together after several months when I found out he was immature, and a messy pig and would not contribute in any way to the household or even do any dishes. I felt like I had to do everything. Thank goodness I found this out before I accidently married him!!! That would have been a huge mistake.

The second man I lived with is now my husband who I met at age 43. When we moved in together we knew we would love each other until we died. That love is so strong and he is a special man, one whom living with and marriage to is easy. We lived together 1.5 years before we legally married. We have our problems but the incompatabilities of living in the same home is not one of them.

So, I am glad I had the short experiance of living with that first boyfriend because I learned who and what I cannot live with, and I am happy I lived with my husband to "test him out for marriage".

At age 43 or 44, when you have time and money to lose, you really want to be SURE you are compatable before you get married!.

What are the reasons that you are living with your boyfriend?

<small>[ January 01, 2004, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Welcome Baby ..... awww ....... sweet name. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Your mom and I are pals on the board and so I just
wanted to welcome you here.

My son is ALSO 20 and he ALSO just "sprang" on me the news that he and his girlfriend are
planning on moving in together.

sigh....

Baby .... I am bias as a Mom. I wasn't happy about it ... but....I support him ..... and on the plus side I really like this girl A LOT!
So things could be worse.

I am just concerned for them both. As far as the relationship ending.

I know. I know .... No one is thinking about the "ending" part. We just all think it will go on and on.

The truth is though Baby - MOST end (glad you
didn't ask me for the exact statistics - your mom has them ...I KNOW she does...she has them ALL .. LOL)

I wonder if the reason they do is that it is far easier to leave a relationship when you are not married, than it would be if you were married?

Ok ... so why is that a biggy? Well, here is my take. (from my own experience
by the way). When the relationship ends, you have just as much to grieve, just
as much hurt, just as many decisions (ie property settlement, stuff to divide up) in
a separation as you do in a divorce. You have all the emotions and all the pain, minus
the paper work.

I say if you already KNOW that statistically you have more chances at a failed relationship
because of living together first, why take the chance? Especially if you believe he is "the"
one. Why curse it now?

I know that sounds really simplistic. I am also aware I am giving you "advice" after the
fact when you are already living with him, but I just think you have a better shot at making
a go of marriage, later, if you do the right things now.

You asked us not to lecture, or to give you the moral reasons so I'll leave that one alone.

I could do like MY folks did to me, which was say; "because I said". LOL

I doubt that would fly with you either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> All I can say now is stay close to your mom emotionally
and stay true to your own heart. IF you see signs of the relationship not working PLEASE don't just stay in it to "prove" anything to people that were nay sayers.

Also, I would suggest you read some good books on "boundaries" if you have not already.

Beyond that, if you change your mind? Please e-mail me with with reasons you changed your mind .. (complete with tearful audio confession) that I may play for MY kid. LOL Just kidding of course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I wish you well sweetie. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

DZZZZ

Actually, the reasons are kind of silly. I haven't brought him home since our third date and because he slept at my house every night it seemed pointless for him to pay for an apartment he wasn't using. He quit his offshore job at my request (and for a few other reasons) because it was very hard on our relationship. and he is now making a lot less money than he was when we first met. This doesn't bother him in any way but now he wants to go to college in the fall and he's trying to save money in order to do so. My condo is payed for so the only thing he pays for is groceries and other household items. We get along wonderfully and we are very aware of eachother's feelings and concerns so it never occured to me that living with him might not be the best idea. Like I said, we definetly plan on getting married in the future, but right now we are not financially able to do so (besides, my parents would kill me). We are very positive influences on eachother...he pushes me to do better, be more ambitious etc. And I help him to be more open-minded. I really liked your list...it definetly made me think....also, I read the Q&A column and the helped put things in perspective. We are very productive as a couple...we discuss rather then fight...but I don't want that to change. More than anything, I'm scared that when we finally do get married we're doomed to fail.

Diamonzzz

Thank you for your post...

My boyfriend read it and said "I don't get it" LOL I guess I'll have to explain it to him later because I do get it. Actually we still have about a month to decide for sure (His lease isn't up until Feb but he's pretty much moved in with me now)

I've had convo's with my mom about it and she doesn't agree with it (obviously) but she's not going to tell me not to either. She's always right though (how annoying!) and I guess her concern just sparked my curiousity. Besides, I'm a psych major and this topic would make a great thesis.

I want this thing to work out with him and I, but if we're making it worse by living together then I guess we should quit.

Hmmm...well at least I have something to think about! Thank you so much Diamonzzz!! If you see my mama tell her I said she's awesome...

Hi baby star*fish,
I'm definitely a fan of your Mom's, but I doubt she'd consider me a friend. I moved in with my bf (recently engaged) for financial reasons. We've been living together for about 2.5 years. It was the next logical step since I was paying $600/mo for a room I never lived in and had no family within several state lines. Like you, I never thought twice about the longterm problems that could be caused. I was surprised to read about the increased marital failure rate for couples who had lived together before marriage. I had long discussions on these boards with members from religious and moral standpoints to emotional ones, to purely logical perspectives. I gradually understood the potential problems and I went from believing that there were great longterm benefits to living together, to thinking it could be done with two mature people who understood the dangers, to thinking I made the wrong decision. My fiance and I are extremely compatible. Communication is great. We highly respect each other and know that despite our decision to live together before marriage, we will have a successful marriage...we also know that like all marriages, we will be faced with significant challenges.
So, since you are looking for horror stories, I'm not the right person to chat with. But, I would strongly discourage you from living together at this point in your relationship. You are smart to pose this question and consider a variety of perspectives. I hope you will both spend a lot of time reading the concepts and stories in this web site. Having a stranger discourage you from something she may have successfully taken on (at least thus far) probably doesn't mean much to you; however, I hope you will give this decision more time. Ask lots of questions. Do everything possible to make sure that you aren't about to destroy your future marriage. Don't rush. If finding the money to live separately saves your future, I think you can agree it will be worth the extra money and effort.

I don't know how to say this without putting the both of you on the defensive, but 20 really is too young to choose your lifelong mate. You are going to change a lot in the next several years. Between the ages of 20-25, you are going to mature so much and learn so much about yourself and the people around you. Both of you will be completely different people in five years. To say this is the man you are going to marry after only dating a short period and being so young is very sweet, but very unrealistic. You may very well end up together for the rest of your lives, but why risk stabbing yourself in the foot now? If you really think this is the man you will marry, start doing the right things now to make sure that marriage will be a success. It's a real struggle to be logical and less emotional when saving money seems like the most logical thing you could possibly do. Just keep reading. Keep asking questions. You may be put on the defensive, but you will always have a few people out there who understand what you are feeling and have likely been in your shoes.

Sorry for the rambling. Had the opportunity arisen, I'd probably have done the same thing at 20, but I'm so glad that wasn't a decision I had to make. I'm so glad that I dated around and learned who I am and who I want in my life. I wish my fiance had done more of the same.
Don't rush. This is your time to be young, have fun, and discover yourself. It's great to be in a serious relationship, but it's not great to trap yourself into one prematurely...lots can go wrong even if you do plan on marrying some day. Love is funny. It screws with your head. I'd say at the very least, date for a couple years before even thinking about the "m" word. Keep your options open or one day you may be wishing you'd actually lived like you were 20 when you had the chance. There are many people on these boards who made that mistake. Have fun with this relationship...that's what you're supposed to do at 20. If it lives long, fabulous. If not, you will grow from it.
Take care,
Smile

Smile,

Thank you so much for your insight....

Don't worry about me getting defensive about anything, I find it's pretty pointless to be offended by anything said on a website intended to help people. I actually wanted people to point out what was wrong with what we are doing...it puts me in my place.

Trust me, I know 20 is way too young to decide anything definite. That's a lot of the reason why I posted on this site...I wanted the opinion of the older and way wiser. My mom is amazing but sometimes it's not enough to hear it from her. I know that sounds weird...guess it's just because...well...she's my mom.

After reading your response as well as the other 2 I've recieved, both of us came to the conclusion that it's probably a good idea to wait out the whole living together thing....there's no point in sabotoging it before it starts. We had a long talk about it and decided that when he's a little more financially stable (Which should be a few months) We'll find him a cheaper apartment and he'll move in there.

As far as getting married goes...if it happens it's not going to happen any time soon. There's a lot that I need to accomplish ON MY OWN before I make a commitment to anyone else wether it's him or not. It's something we would both like to see happen in the future, but we know we're still too young to be able to handle it. I tend to lean on people and I would rather establish myself as independent before I marry someone.

More than anything, we're great friends and we have a lot of fun together....that'll be the hardest thing about living apart...we really enjoy eachother's company (24 hrs a day!). I know it sounds really dumb, but then again so are we <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Anyway...now I'm rambling...Thank you again for posting, I appreciate all the input I can get!!

Hi Baby*Star.

I believed when I was your age, that I just wanted to have fun. And even when I met my current husband, the idea was not to be "serious", but to enjoy his company.

Dating is a time for enjoyment, and learning about one another, and as the others before me here have said...also to learn about yourself! Having a life with your maturing personality, whether it be college degrees or already initiated in a career...The time you spend is invaluable in learning about lifes trials, and development in maturity.

We don't like to see our children get too "serious" before early twenties, and sometimes it will be ok earlier or later. But, the important thing is to not sell yourself short.

You can listen to a parent and still feel you want to do a thing, but one thing is that they will always want to support you, in anyway to give you the best advantages available to you. I think that Baba wrote some important things about the living arrangement. And my spouse lived with another woman when he was in his early twenties. It was fun, but on occasion ovewhelming. The separation could be compared to the same pains as a divorce. With all of the down feelings woven in. But he survived it. And he learned valuable lessons from it. But don't think the advantages were worth any of it.

I wish you the best! Happy New Year!

The first time I tried living together with a man I was 27 and a virgin. It lasted for about 6 months or so. He kind of "just brought his stuff" one day and moved on in. I was lonely at the time so I let him. But later, when I learned about LOVE and what LOVE was and was not and learned about myself more, I realized that I could not live with this man although he was not a bad person and was a good "friend" to me.

After that experiance, I never even thought of living with anyone else(a man, I had a female roomate occasionally in my big home) again until I met my "love of my life" my husband.

After dating for many years and sticking with a few boyfriends for years, I decided to really find THE ONE for me. I knew who I was by then and had some assetts. I was READY for marriage if I happened to meet the right man. And I was going to date 100 men until I found that one!

I dated only four men, all were nice. The fourth one, I could NOT rule out. After meeting him I asked him if we could go on another date I enjoyed being with him...he said SURE!

We dated and after the fourth or 5th date I knew I was falling for him. We dated for 6 months and I was totally wild about him. We knew that "this was it"! This was a lasting lifetime thing. He was my Mr Right and I was the ONE for him.

So, we looked at about 100 very nice homes in various areas and narrowed it down to two and I bought the bigger of the two, a great, brand new 4 bedroom home and we moved in. I rented out my 3000 sq foot "older home" that I had been living in to a family.

He had a few small vanloads of stuff and I had a 27 foot van stuffed four boxes high with all my stuff. It was fun moving and everything. My Dad got mad when he realized that boyfriend was actually living there. (It did not occur to him at first that that is the only reason I would buy a nice new and beautiful home when I had a big home to live in already) My Dad ordered me to get a "living together agreement" or something because I had so many assetts. I told Dad not to worry, that I was 44 and well able to handle myself. But I bought 4 books about the "living together agreements"...just to be sure.

Then one day, I knew it was going to be for life with this man so I brought up marriage. He has always said he would be with me forever until I no longer wanted HIM. But I asked if he thought of marriage and he said he would like to marry me. So we got married a few months after I had a prenup agreement drawn up and signed.

When I was 20 and 21 (Times are different now) I was barely concious of the world. At 27, I was still a virgin. So, I cannot imagine "steady dating" very often at 20 even though I had one boyfriend then for about 2 years. I think some people do "steady dating" throughout their life and some "date around" or play the field. I did a combination of these things.

"Steady dating" allows you to "have a relationship" for a longer period of time and get into "relationship issues" so that you learn "how to run and not run a healthy relationship".

"Dating around" allows you to have freedom to meet many people and see what is out there and what type you like the best. It allows you to develop self confidence and stand on your own two feet. Polishing up your social and dating skills are important to learn so you do not feel you are "grabbing for the first man around and sticking to him like glue". These social skills will also come in handy later in a marriage so that you get along with neighbors, friends, etc.

My husband and I both "dated around" and "had long term relationships" and "lived with people" so we had a wide variety of experiances with the opposite sex. He even had an accidental child 25 years ago when the woman he was dating tricked him into an unwanted pregnancy. She had told him and showed him she was taking the pill but she really was not doing it. So he had that too, the experiance of raising a child, dealing with his former girlfriend, an alcoholic, cheating mother who he never could even live with, and paying 21 years of hefty child support for a child who was ruined by the alcoholic mother. We have never seen his child since she lives 3000 miles away but we hear from my husband's mother that she is a "nightmare walking", well known in the little town, with four kids of her own now and the various criminal father's in jail. That is what happens when a man trusts a woman he is dating who "cannot be trusted". He never trusted woman again regarding birth control issues.


These experiances (all of them) come in handy to enhance our marriage now. My husband can handle any situation that comes up with grace and wisdom no matter how difficult. I am very smart myself too so we make a great team. I have never raised a child (and I never will!) so I missed some wisdom and experiance there but my husband did it so he makes up for this lack in our marriage.

Unless you are with your Mr Right, you might want to figure that your life will contain many forms of dating. Casual dating, boyfriend relationships, living together for short periods of time. This way you will have the full range of experiances with the opposite sex. Just please if you are sexually active use two forms of birth control EVERY time you have sex. Then, if you should break up you will only have to deal with a hurt heart, not an unwanted baby.

Believe me, you do not want to "put yourself in prison too soon" or cut your choices in life short by becoming pregnant if you do not want to be. You are smart so why ruin a great life with an unintended pregnancy? That would probably blow all your other plans to smithereens.

So, whatever you do be careful and observe things and learn all you can about life and love! Try not to limit yourself too much even if it seems safe to do so.

Many women plop out a child early so that "they can limit their lives and not have to think about the hard questions in life". They actually ruin themselves and their own lives to achieve an "illusion of safety" since then "there is nothing else they can do with thier lives but raise the child".

Some women are afraid to think, learn, experiance different parts of life, go outside thier comfort zones, etc. So it is attractive for them to become pregnant as soon as possible and "live a determined and set lifestyle" rather than thinking scarey thoughts like "what carrer should I go for" or "who should I marry" or "what is my purpose in life".

So, whatever you do, please do not create DAMAGE in your life that you cannot undo.

LIFE damage you cannot undo is this"

1. STD'S
2. A baby when you are unmarried and not ready
3. A bad boyfriend who won't leave
4. Verbal abuse or physical abuse
5. Dropping out of school
6. Criminal record
7. Drugs
8. Alcoholic
9. Credit debts
10. Loans
11. Bad people around you
12. Abortion
13. ETC


Stay free and far from all the "damaging things" in life and you will be OK. You have so many choices to have a great life. Living together is not the most damaging thing you can do to your life. I feel that one of my realtionships "not living together" was way harder and more painful to break up than my "living together relationship at age 27". It depends on how emotionally close you are with that person, living together or not.

"Living together itself" does not nessicarily make you more emotionally close than dating them and having sex with them. And the pain of breaking up is no worse with "living together relationships" than it is with "non living together boyfriends" who you are in love with.

The pain of a breakup is determined by many things:

1. How "in love" you feel.
2. Who broke up with who
3. How emotionally close you were
4. How dependent on them you became
5. How much you limited yourself by being with them
6. How the breakup was conducted
7. Compatability issues
8. How long you were with them
9. How good or bad the sex was
10. How much energy you put into the relationship
11. Other things....

Living together or not, breaking up can be painful (or not, especially if you come to dislike the person and want to be rid of them)...

So please evaluate things always and make sure it is the BEST thing you can be doing right now! For your precious life! You have ALL the choices open to you now, don't blow it!


Good Luck!

<small>[ January 02, 2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

I think it is just awesome that you and your bf are reading here together and talking about things objectively. That can only help you.
Remember that you don't have to be married or planning marriage to learn from this site. Ask lots of questions.
You sound like two smart people. I wish I had had a parent like Star*fish to give me relationship advice when I was your age. She may be biased, but her advice is solid. She may not always be right, but she will always be making decisions in your best interest and sometimes that just better than always being right. My mom always wanted me to think she was my best friend. She supported me no matter what I did. I had sex and was and engaged with a boy when I was in high school and she supported this despite the fact that he was abusive both physically and verbally and extremely self-centered. I was looking for someone to help me out of the relationship and my mom was making it harder. It would have been really great if she could have taken a step back and helped me see things more objectively. You've got a wonderful woman in your life to help you do that. Whether or not you always agree and side with her, ALWAYS listen to her and think very hard about her advice...she's a wise mommy.

I both envy you your support system and admire your maturity. You have lots of growing to do, but being smart now will allow you to enjoy that growth rather than have to use it to dig yourself out of a hole.

Smile

baba--

As far as babies go we are REALLY careful about it (well, as careful as we can be without actually abstaining from sex). But I see what you're saying--it would definetly be horrible if we had a child right now.

Other than that...all the other things you mentioned are really not a huge issue.

When I first met my bf, he had a very serious drinking problem....I didn't actually realize how bad it was until we started dating. He was never mean to me when he was drunk, but he was awful to everyone else and did some really stupid things. After we dated for about a month, I realized that there was no way I could be with him if his drinking continued. I basically told him that if he didn't quit drinking completely, then we would no longer be together. That was all it took...after that conversation, he didn't drink again for almost 6 months. Now, he'll have an occasional beer while playing pool or he'll come to the bar I work at and have a drink with me when I get off, but that's the extent of it.

I have always refused to date a guy that uses drugs (ANY and ALL drugs), and over the past year I have been very insistent on men being tested for STD's before I sleep with them.

I have had my share of the bad boyfriends for sure...but I've had great ones too. Every time I date someone it is such a huge learning experience for me.

One thing that bugs me though...
Where I live, it really is impossible to date around. Even if you're not sleeping with anyone, it's not very socially accepted to date a few guys at on time. I usually did anyway, but my reputation GREATLY suffered from it and made life in highschool (and some semesters of college) absolutely miserable. This is not so much a problem for me now since I am in a "serious relationship", but it still really burns me up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Anyway, my boyfriend is really great and we have an enormous amount of respect for eachother. I'm sure we'll have problems and rough spots like everyone else, but hopefully we'll be able to deal with them in a productive way.

Thanks baba!!!

Smile--

For my mother, "wise" is not a big enough word. She always had a way of explaining things to me in a way that really made sense. She and I have been through a lot together and she has made an incredible impact on me. I can't imagine where I would be today if it weren't for her.

I remember being in highschool and absolutely hating her. Just ask her about it....trust me, I was the devil. But now, I look forward to talking to her and seeing her. She really is my hero and I hope one day I'm lucky enough to be just like her.

I spoke with her earlier today and let her know I had posted a question on the site....she seemed very pleased that I was taking the intiative to learn more about my situation. I really appreciate all the advice that ya'll have given me.

Keep it coming!!

Thanks!

Baby_Star,

I don't expect you would know or understand near as much as your mother--as you haven't been through her life experiences--and that's okay--you'll have your own and will learn many of them that way--

but, you asked why according to the Bible you shouldn't move in with your b/f--

Part of the reasons is respect--

Respect for you as the woman God created you to be
and for him--as the man God has created him to be
and respect for God--as Your creator--

God say's that a man is to present his bride as pure and without blemish before God--

God created you to be a gift for your husband--
one that should be loved and cherished--

Just as your stbh is God's gift to you--

This is something that really took me a long time to grasp and I'm your mom's age--

Think about Christmas--and how you feel inside when you recieve a gift from someone who really loves you--in two different ways--

first--consider how you feel when you peeked and know what the gift is--it takes away part of the joy you feel inside, does it not?? because you know what it is--

And then consider how you feel when you see a gift under the tree for weeks before Christmas it's the biggest box under the tree--and your waiting, anticipating just what it is--you can't wait to open it--

You know it's a gift from someone you love so very much--and you know it's going to be wonderful
and your going to enjoy it so much--because it's given in love--

God views you and your B/F that way--as gifts to each other from Him--before the wedding..He's still working on some of those finishing touches

And then look at the wedding itself--it's as if God wraps you both up in that beautful wrapping
you in The long white flowing gown, and Him in the Crisp new Suit or Tux---as a special gift He has created for each of you--

And to take the gift before it's ready--is taking away from how truly special it really is--

Like I said--this is something that I have recently come to truly understand--and it makes me hurt inside--that I never seen it before and that with the relationships I have had in the past the men didn't see me as that special gift from God either---

but, this is just my perspective <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I hope it helps--

I agree completely with Thorned. There is nothing positive to be gained by living together out of wedlock, it will more than likely lead to long term pain and confusion. If he loves you enough he will prove it by getting a separate residence, and the same thought pertains to you. That's my take and God bless you both!

TR and HPK, I believe Little Star and her boyfriend are actively having a sexual relationship so the "gift has been given and opened and used already "...

What would your views be about premarital sex? Is living together and having premarital sex worse than having sex and not living together?

baba2,


--What would your views be about premarital sex?

TR--having been there recently before I married--
I struggled with the guilt knowing I wasn't in God's will--and it's not a good feeling--but not knowing where they are in their relationship with Christ--they may not feel that same guilt--


--Is living together and having premarital sex worse than having sex and not living together?

TR--Nope--they are the same--and I struggled with
the living together as well--

like I said..these are things I have recently come to fully understand--and we were recently married--

As the mother of a college student I have a lot of opinions about this --- but more importantly, as a result of experience, I have more opinions.

Sweetie,

Life has a lot of problems that come and go and most of those we can't do anything except face them, act upon them, and move on. But, this particular choice you are making has long term, lasting affects, and will affect your life - for the rest of your life.

I'm going to take this one step further - and share something else.

Giving yourself to a man (or visa versa) before marriage is not something you want to do - because it also has lasting affects. I've heard all the jokes about not buying the grapes because they may be bitter - but the reality is if you get free milk, why by the cow?

I've been around a while and those who don't want to wait, seem to be pushing for 'sexual favors' are also the first out the door in the morning. Talk is cheap - honestly - a man can say anything to get what he wants. He can take you to dinner every night on his visa card, shower you with presents, and give you all kinds of attention for a few weeks or months to get you into his room for viewing his 'etchings' --- but you want more than that from a man who is promising to spend his life with you - you want dedicated commitment. You want to know that he respects, admires, and loves you for the whole you - not just because you satisfy his anatomical demands.

Another issue that I've been dealing with - with my daughter (and I have her blessing to share this) is that you need to be independent enough to know that you don't NEED a man to complete you as a person. Your mom is an incredible woman, and you know her much better than I. I want you to think about something - she's who she is because of the roads she's taken in life - one of those roads has been the choice to become a better person regardless of the choices your father made. He may be a wonderful man - and together they make a wonderful - incredible couple. But take a look at your mom. A real look. She could stand alone, without your Dad if necessary.

To make a marriage work - two complete and whole people are required to come together and become one.

Think about this - seriously. If you are broken or incomplete in any area, for instance you are immature and childish about finances, then you start out with a lopsided view of that part of your lives. This isn't about being disabled or having an issue that needs to be worked on - or even disagreeing about something. It's about being a whole person. When you feel confident in your ability to live on your own, reacting to life's crisis and wonders in a manner that brings confidence and assurance to you - then you are ready for a relationship.

Dating is a process of locating possibilities. I believe I read somewhere on MB that a person should date at least 30 people before they settle on one person - and of those 30 people you should be able to have imagined yourself *in love* with at least three of them. Then you can choose with some understanding of the process of loving the person who is actually most compatible with you.

It sounds a bit austere - but I can honestly say - part of the problem with my first marriage was that I mistook physical attraction on his part for love on my part. I had been emotionally injured and was not healed from those wounds before I stepped into a relationship where neither of us were capable of being "the adult". His issues were childhood abuse and alcohol abuse.

Now, the 'living together issue' ---

Reasons not to live together before marriage...

1. It limits your choices... Get up on your wedding day and realize that you don't really want to be married to this man for the rest of your life. There are all these *buts* in the way... But I've lived with him for three years. But everyone expects me to marry him. But he's so nice to me. But we love each other. But he's the greatest in bed. But he disrespects me at every turn. But he's childish about picking up after himself. But I've learned to deal with his problems.

2. It removes your focus of self and personal achievements and goals during the process of becoming ready for marriage and puts the focus on being a 'mate' while he still has an open door. You still have an open door too - but the reality is you are limiting your ability to become who you want to be - by putting an "other person in the picture" restriction on your life without the commitment that makes it permanent.

3. When the wedding day comes nothing changes ---- WRONG --- EVERYTHING CHANGES. You just made a commitment to be there forever for that man - and now picking up after him and getting his laundry becomes a problem. You did it before, because you wanted to show him how much you care, but now this is real - for the rest of your life real - and you'd like for him to just pick up his own socks and stop by the laundry on his way home instead of you making a special trip.
You didn't misrepresent anything to him - you didn't even *change* - but the dynamic changed. What you used to do to keep him interested is not any longer necessary because he's yours. This goes both ways - now he feels confident to sit in front of the TV three nights a week with his buddies, because he knows you'll be home waiting for him, not out checking Starbucks for the newest hunk in town. When before the wedding - he was at Starbucks being YOUR hunk!!!

4. No matter how much you think you are being REAL - in a living together situation - there are always differences from THERE to after the wedding bells... I swear - wedding bells are like an earthquake shaking up the best relationships and making them feel different. After the wedding you will wake up and wonder who is that man with the slightly protruding chin and funky hair line laying beside you - and he's going to wonder when you started developing those frown lines. It does make a difference!!!

Expectations are the rage during dating - we try to meet our bf/gf's expectations - and after we marry - we try to see how many of those expectations we can get away with not meeting... Even in the best situations where both are trained in MBisms - I believe this is a commonality of marriage.

I'm not saying you can't change that - or make it work - I'm just saying that the dynamic is there and it's harder.

Rules are made to be broken - but it's so much easier to fix a wreck that didn't happen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jan

TR and HPK, I respect you both very much. But as yet, a person cannot be re-virginated. I wish it were available. But this is why I never had premarital sex until age 27. Any later than this, and I would have "stunted myself" for future sex.

Had I waited to have sex until I was married, I would have been the "oldest virgin alive" at age 45. Wow. A virgin at 45. Big thrill.

Life is not ideal. We can shoot for the stars and we will reach the moon anyway!

Re-virginated --- Baba - come on, get a grip --- and a dictionary... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Really, I do have a serious comment here. You can't be 'revirginated' but I do believe very strongly that it's the process of developing a relationship without the stress and duress of having sexual exchanges to deal with as well as the 'relationship' processes. There are issues that loving another person brings to light that include emotional connection and bonding that are imploded through the process of having a physical relationship.

For instance, if you are attempting to connect emotionally with someone and their response is to heighten your physical desire for them - the emotional connection is relegated to the back burner while you explore (or as is often the case) fulfill the other person's physical desires. For instance: In your specific case, Baba. There have been limitations in emotional connection while your H attempts to please you physically - and when you were able to put back those physical demands - your emotional relationship has grown and become far more *connected* allowing for the physical portion of your relationship to improve.

An observation that might help more than one person here.

Jan

Alcohol is a drug. You would not date a man who uses drugs? So is nicotind. Both are legal. Both are addictive.

As for the STD test. You can get negative results though infected and harboring the virus. It may take months after infection before the positive results show up.