I've been away away for a week or so. Life with H has been sheer madness! He misses miss Mia so much - he actually admits it freely. I guess my feelings don't count for much. I went to the counseling session alone last week - H refuses to go anymore. Counselor says I should really consider a separation. Hurts too much to think about that. 17 years of marriage is a long time...<P>I called Mia dearest and asked her VERY personal questions about what had gone on between her and my H. I truly wish I had not ever done that. Boy was she truthful. At first she said she thought this information should come from my H and was very reluctant to spill any info. But after I kept insisting, she finally gave in. It makes me sick! The "ghosts" in my head are more vivid than ever. Not to mention, my heart is torn into shreds. How I wish, after everythin I know that my H would have shown me half the attention and affection she showed to Mia.<P>I'm hurt again. And I'm depressed over the obvious failing of my marriage.

TL, I really don't have much advice to offer. I do know some of your pain, though and wanted to let you know how sorry I am that you are going through this. I don't know why we have to experience this sort of heartache. No one should have to have their heart torn to shreds-especially by the one they love. It saddens me so much to read all these posts by persons obviously in the worst pain of their lives. My thoughts are with you.<BR>Hurtingwife

Tired Lady,<BR>I feel so sad that you had to hear what happened between them, no one deserves this. The thing that I want you to understand is that it is not your fault. It is absolutely true if your H had shown you the same amount of what he did with her he would be one big happy camper instead of a cheater. If he would have been open and honest about things in the marriage to let you know the affair might not have taken place. How do I know this because my W is the same way and I bet if we took a pole here you would find this trait prevolent. Rather than open up and communicate or add spice to the marriage find someone to start over with. Oh but first before you start over you must devistate the spouse....<BR>Can you tell I am a little upset?<BR>Find a way to stay busy so as not to think on these things so much. I wonder also if you should discuss (in detail) all these things with your H....

TL, I'm sorry that you are going through so much pain. If you were to shock your H and ask him to leave, do you think that he would miss you as much? Have you ever left him. Maybe it is time for you to start thinking about yourself. Maybe the best thing for YOU would be to kick his "woes me, i miss Mia" [censored] out! No where on your birth certificate does it say you need this man in your life in order to survive. Having him out might turn out to be the best thing you have ever done for yourself. Why not trying to live the single life for awhile just as he has done. Life is too short. Yes we know you love him, we know you will miss him, but it seems like self-mutilation to miss him and he is still there in the same household...who needs that kind of torture?

Tired Lady -- That's what I've been for a long time ... tired lady. If you ask him to leave and aren't faced with his daily "I miss her attitude", you won't be hurting any more or less than you are now. However, by not having it in your face all the time, your frame of mind might improve. That's what I've found since leaving. When I'm with him, he's at his best and its because he wants to be where he is. <P>Just food for thought. My prayers are with you. This is an ugly time.

Interesting advice from someone who's "name" is Trying 2 4give ..." Kick him out." (guess you're forgiving efforts aren't going so well, huh?)<P>How about LOVE him thru it? That's what my H did. It worked. <P>And I'm sorry to tell you, but no you're feeling don't matter much right now. He's in withdrawal .... nothing matters but how he feels about the OM .... but it passes. Right now your feelings have to be on hold. He's with YOU ... not her. Give him a chance to detox and then he'll be able to work on the marriage.<P>Until then you're just gonna have to hang tight ... not easy I'm sure ... but worth it in the long-run .... I know my H would tell you that.<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited August 31, 1999).]

TL,<BR>I feel your pain. I agree with Maya, love him through it. I am doing that with my W. She is currently in an emotional affair that she insists on calling it a friendship. I don't know friends who call each other several times a day and nearly every day. To me this is an affair. To top it all off, I was kind and lent this guy money before I knew that they were talking as much as they were and are still. I received another crushing blow when I found out today that he no longer works where he just started working and didn't receive a call to let me know that he had changed or lost his job. I have written off evr seeing that money again.<P>At least you got the answers to what ever level of detail that you desired. I have yet to get to know any of that information. I still can only speculate about the first of eight affairs that I am aware of. The first was while she was home for a family reunion. I know she slept with this man every night for two straight weeks. The only time she has done that for me was at the beginning of our marriage. It has yet to happen again. I know that the ghosts are horrible. I went through a similar thing when she told me how many men she had been with before we were married. It allowed me to deal with it and get over the anxiety that I had about the topic because she is the second and God willing last woman that I will ever make love to. The first person dumped me after I explained to her that I saw sex as sacred. It took me 2.5 years to get over her. I married my wife because God told me He wanted me to get married because I had vowed to become a monk.<P>I am convinced that the pain never goes away. I have found that as I am more able to forgive her completely, the less and less the pain becomes. I now need her to be able to forgive herself for what she has done. I honestly feel that she is in more pain that I am. <P>Is your H talking to you in a way that says he is actually working to save your marriage? I have found that I have to look for the tiniest signs of affection and caring such as preparing my plate or getting a chair for the computer room which I use almost exclusively. I am not looking for drastic changes because she has a great deal of anger that has festered over the majority of her life. I have only intensified that anger by doing things ubintentionally as well as some intentionally because I was angry. For all those things I have told her that I was sorry, but her hurt is deep.<P>I will pray for you anf your family.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

tired lady-<P>I'm going along with Maya's advice here. If he truly is willing to work out your marriage, and is in it for the long run, then have some patience that he will eventually come out of his withdrawal phase.<P>It's gonna be VERY hard and I empathize with your hurt! I really don't know how others can do the whole "be nice while he/she's in withdrawal thing". It does seem to be a successful tactic though.<P>That said, he certainly could show a little more consideration towards you. I mean, telling you that he misses the OW... I had (have) heavy duty withdrawal, BIG TIME, but I never said stuff like that. Sure, I moped alot and was distant, but I never SAID anything.<P>Actually, that brings up a questions -- would you rather see him moping and guess that he's thinking about the OW, or would you rather he say "I'm missing OW right now" whenever he is? <P>--andy

First of all Miss Maya, you know what you can do with that nasty, defensive attitude of yours! Do you know how long she has been loving him through this? Do you know how long she has had to deal with him reminding her EVERYDAY of his love for another woman? Just how much time do you think (in your expert opinion from the betrayers side) a person can endure before they need a straight jacket? Just how much do you think someone can have the person they love look at you and know they are miserable because they are thinking of the OP! Give me a break and check your own forgiveness skills! Yes, Plan A does work for SOME and it should be in effect at first (well, not if it is an abusive relationship, ofcourse). But sometimes SOME people do need to be jolted to their senses when they see their wife/husband go to Plan B. Sometimes Plan B is the only thing that works. That was my point.

Speaking only from my own perspective here, I know what I put my H through with my own actions, and although he tried to love me through it, it wasn't bringing things to a head that needed to be. Reality check for me was almost losing him when he took the kids away one night. Devastation. And he didn't scream or yell, he simply was showing me what my actions were causing, and that woke me up incredibly fast. Not trying to say that this is the best way for everyone, but when I realized what kind of fool I really was acting like (shock!) it was a turning point, kind of a slam back into reality, knowing that this man is going through too much, and I loved him, and what in the hell was I doing?? He did it because he couldn't take it anymore. Loving someone through this can take on many forms, sometimes the tough love type.

Holy Socks TT4G, that's quite a blast. In my expert opinion, I've lasted in Plan A, with some lapses, for 16 months with a chronically depressed, sporadically cheating spouse. I'm certainly not saying everybody should or could or would want to, and yes people, including my pastor, tell me I should consider how long I can do this. If someone had told me a year ago it would be like this...I would have bailed then. But it takes place one hour, one day at a time. Would B have worked better? All I know is that I could not do B. At this point, he works on the marriage or we divorce. No more limbo time. And he has chosen our marriage.<P>Maya, I'm a betrayed, but I always like to read your advice and I am loving my H through this. Someday I hope he feels like you do.

I think in some cases, plan B is exactly what needs to be implemented, but in other cases, a plan B could result in that final nail in the coffin for the marriage. I know Dr. Harley would say to stick it out as long as you absolutely can. And like Maya says, to "love him through it." Which is very heartwrenching in itself.<P>Tired,<P>If you love your H, if you want to preserve your marriage, if you want him to see the changes you can make to be a better spouse, then by all means, try, try, and try again. And when you grow tired and weary, try some more. I remember one of your first posts where you admitted you hadn't put much effort into your marriage (as I recall), so now, here's your chance to put all the effort you can muster into saving it.<P>If not, if you really are sick and tired and want to call it quits, then you should do that. It's really all up to you. Whatever route you go, I wish you the best.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Thanks for all your insights. I actually agree with those of you who said that I am the only one who can know the limits I am able to deal with. I am just about at my threshold. Honestly, my H make absolutely no effort at all to demonstrate anything to me that I have asked for from him during our joint counseling sessions. Maybe he was still seeing her (Mia) when these counseling sessions were going on, but to date, no effort of any kind is going on with him nor does he even speak of WANTING to try to steer our marriage in the right direction. It's really as if he's with me in body only, but his heart and soul belong to her. He hasn't touched me at all since December 1, 1998! Sad that that date is so vivid in my mind. Sunday nite, I was in the bedroom crying, (so what else is new..) and his reaction to seeing me upset? He came into the bedroom and said, "Now what?" Well, gee, really makes me what to just open up and bare my soul to him huh? I just wish he would have shown some comfort, you know, hugged me, told me he's sorry, etc. The only thing remotely close to remorse he's ever said is "sorry you're hurting, but that's not the same as saying "sorry "I've" hurt you. No responsibility take here. <P>You know what guys, after reading my pathetic response to everyone, I guess reality has just slapped me in the face. I really do need to let him go. And for what it's worth, I failed him and his needs just as much as he failed mine. I just didn't seek comfort with another person.

Hey TL - maybe we can help each other here. Can't write too much just yet, but suffice to say I have lived your hell for the last 5 months (probably most of my marriage actually) - there has always blatently been another "friend" who he cared about a heap more than me. After these last months of him becoming more and more depressed, telling me he has finally found the person he wants to spend his life with, his soulmate, how he misses her - has been giving me updates each week as to the fact that they have talked again about moving out together, but she refuses, how sad that makes him, etc, etc, etc. There's only so much a woman can take - I was going around the twist. Well, now he has gone - feels worse, as I miss him so much, but hey, he wasn't thinking about me all this time, he doesn't want to be with me, sleep with me etc. etc.etc. ...and it was just shoved in my face 24hrs a day - misery, desire for someone else. I was going insane. So, although the pain now is almost impossible to bear, as we have kids and so no contact is not possible, its no worse than having the feelings and thoughts for the OW shoved constantly in your face. He only left recently, so it's all new, painful and real to me - I sometimes wonder how I can love someone who has been so cruel.<P>Thinking of you.....I'll keep watching for your posts.

Tired Lady,<P>First of all I must say that I ask God to pour out his richest blessings upon you. I ask God to ease your pain and make your burdens lighter. I wish you peace of mind and peace in your marriage. This is my prayer for you.<P>I may not have very good advice to offer you., But I wish that I knew the perfect things to say during this sad time. Look to the lord for your strength. He will NOT fail you.<P>Maya,<P>I AM NOT TRYING TO BE UNKIND, but when I read your posts, you always seem kind of unfeeling toward those of us who have been betrayed. You tell TL to love him through it. But maybe right now whe needs to love herself a little and get out of a bad situation. You tell her that her feeling don't matter. No I guess they haven't mattered to a husband that has cheated on her even while he was going to marriage counseling pretending that he was working on the marriage at the OW's suggestion. (as she graciously pointed out.) I think that TL has to care about her feeling from this point on... because it is obvious that NO ONE else will. You say that H is with TL? Well what difference does it make if he is with her or not when all he does is "Miss" Mia? He may as well be gone. She isn't getting his love and affection anyway.<P>He is the one who cheated. He is one who needs to be making the sacrifices right now, NOT TL! This man needs a reality check. How dare he flaunt his affair in TL's face. Can you understand how tired and defeated this is making her?<P>You tell her to hang tight, it's worth it in the long run? Maybe it is and maybe Not. The mind can only take so much pain. And maybe tired is at her limit. Please try to be understanding Maya. Please try to be a little more sensitive. As I go through my troubles day after day, I get all kinds of advice about my marriage from family and close friends. But I tell each and every one of them who tell me what they would and wouldn't take from their husbands, that they don't know what they would do, until you they have walked a mile in my shoes.<P>My apologies if I have offended anyone.<P>Tired Lady, <P>Take Cae of yourself!<P>------------------<BR>Luv, Liza<P>Never fear, because God walks right beside you, and if you get tired, he will lift you up and carry you.

Tired Lady,<P>Nothing you say is pathetic. I cannot imagine the pain you are going through right now. I say, do whatever you feel is right FOR YOU. Again, only you know how much you can take, and only you know how much you are willing to take. <P>Liza,<P>Ok, sticking my neck out here. Maya has been on this forum for a long time, and the overwhelming majority of her posts have not been, as you say, "unfeeling toward those of us who've been betrayed." I can say this because I, too, am a betrayed spouse, and I haven't felt Maya's posts to be unfeeling towards me. Quite the contrary, actually. Most of her posts have moreso been her beating up on herself for betraying her H. Most of her posts have involved her asking forgiveness from God. Granted, of late there has been some bashing going on from all sides of the spectrum, but I don't think we should dismiss the whole by looking at just one part.<P>This daily grind on the infidelity roller coaster can wear and tear on the best of us. We all should just try to be a little more understanding of each other. <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Sosad, Liza - once again a thank you. Your hearts are in the right place. <P>I have to tell all of you that Liza is right. Unless you have lived my life, in my house, seen (or not seen) what was obviously happening right under my nose, you cannot understand where my breaking point is. I will continue to say that I took my H for granted, while he worked countless hours for a demanding company, I never asked him how his day was, or if I could give him a massage, or anything. Instead, I just redirected my energies to my own activities and volunteer organizations, fullfilling the void that I felt I didn't get from my H. So, you see, as so many of you also have posted, the deterioration of a marriage happens for many months or years before an "affair" can bring the problems to the surface. For his part, H did on several occasions ask me to "fix" certain things that bothered him. Like stop so much volunteering when I neglected cleaning our home, or cooking meals for the family, or leaving to go to volunteer meetings knowing that he was the one who had just busted his butt at work for the past 14 hours and I sat at home doing nothing. He would get after me to lose all the weight that I put on and never had any motivation to lose. Never really thought I'd have to pay that much attention to maintaining my H's interest. Thought he's always love me no matter what. Stupid huh? I have a major responsibility to accept for the breakdown of my marriage. But, on the flip side, when we finally went to counseling, and all this ow stuff became a reality, I also asked for things from him. I wanted those things Miss Mia got (gets). I want to be the most important person in his life. I want silly love letters written via email to me. I want hugs, kisses, lovemaking and everything he gave (gives) her. And just in case you are all wondering, No, I don't think it's over between them. After all the personal questions and answers that I got from Miss Mia, I know that I will NEVER forget what he's done. I'm not sure forgiveness in within me either. And sadly, it's my H that continues the pursuit of his everlasting love for "her".

Well well well ..... and good morning to you all. <P>DISCLAIMER: I'm PMSing, have had NO coffee yet this morning and am having a bad hair day.<P>Let me tell you what "thinking of yourself" got ME last year. I had a pity party because my H wasn't paying attention to me, wasn't meeting MY emotional needs. I said, "Screw this. I'm gonna think of myself and make MYSELF happy." <P>And here I sit .....<P>THAT'S what thinking of yourself gets you.<P>And what thinking of your spouse gets you , in my H's case, was a restored marriage. Pardon me for quoting some vows, and some bibicial principles ... but it said FOR BETTER OR WORSE ... (TL you're in the middle of the WORSE part) and Christ reminds us -- quite often -- that we are to forgive .... 70 x 7 .... symbolic for FOREVER AND ALWAYS.<P>There's no choice. Sure you can think of yourself and RUN out on the marriage. The OM I was involved with has done just that .... and once the funk has cleared from my eyes I have realized what an absolute BUTT he is. I would have actually had a ton of respect for him if he would have tried to restore his marriage and be there for his kids. (and believe me he would have been going back into a reeeeaaaaaalllllly bad situation)<P>But he didn't trust God and give the situation completely over to Him. He is thinking of HIMSELF ... he's building a new life without his kids in it ...<P>Sorry, guys. But God didn't PROMISE that our lives would be free of strife. We're flawed humans, sinful beings with "ME ME ME" attitudes. What God did promise was that He'd never leave us. I venture to say that Paul wasn't exactly envied by people as he sat in jail, was beaten for his beliefs, etc. God didn't "rescue" him (by human standards), but he certainly did bless him. Blessings aren't always visible in this life.<P>And TL, you might never have the marriage you dreamed you would. But you will be able to know without a doubt that you did everything you could and you didn't quit ... your H did.<P>"... fought the good fight, finished the race, kept the faith ..... "<P>And now I will go get coffee and wait for ROUND #2.

Maya,<P>I seriously doubt there will be a round two. I see nothing in this post that anyone could take issue with. I, too, am leary when people say "I'm going to make myself happy," "I'm going to think of myself." Because, those words also were spoken by me during my dark period as justifications for "making myself happy." <P>I LOVE Iiyanla Vanzant, but yesterday on Oprah, even she said some things that could be misconstrued with "whatever makes you happy...." We just need to be careful how far we take the "thinking of myself" stuff.<P>In the context that we need to "think of ourselves" in terms of working on our own issues and our own problems so that we can be a better spouse, is a good thing. If we keep it on that level, we won't find us in places we never dreamed we'd be in.<P>TL,<P>No, you'll never forget what your H has done, nor will he ever forget the hurtful things you've done. Forgetting is not the issue. Forgiveness is. And whether you stay with your H or not, you're going to have to forgive him in order to move on with your life without those demons chasing you. <P>Your H became lovers with an OW when you and he were not lovers. The situation you describe sounds like you were roommates, ships passing day to day, not lovers. So, it isn't like he was being both your lover and someone else's at the same time. I really think trying to compare what he was doing for her while you and he were so distant from one another is adding salt to your wounds. Wouldn't you be MORE hurt if he was giving you all those things, professing love to you, making love to you, and was doing those things for Mia too at the same time? Wouldn't that be worse? To me it would. Because, you see, I look at it like the OW was my H's second choice. I was his first, but I was out of reach to him. So he took a cheap, cheap stand-in for me. Even though I, too, had an affair, it took me a while to get that through my head. Maybe if you could look at it that way, you'd get a renewed zest to keep trying, I don't know.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Though I have not read all the post relating to putting self first, I know that Jesus set the example for ALL of US to follow. Did He put Himself first. I THINK NOT!!<P>In order for us to be molded in His image we must put ALL others first to include our ENEMIES. He will not forgive you unless you are able to forgive. Thus the choice is yours: forgive and be forgiven or not forgive and not be forgiven.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited September 01, 1999).]