Hi Everyone,<P>I'd like to jump in to say I agree with the perspective Maya brought up earlier about loving the other person through it. My perspective is based on the fact that it too happened to me.<P>I betrayed my H. And somehow he managed to love me through it.. and still is doing that. I don't pretend to understand why/how he did this, he only said his love for me was 'not normal.' (Sounds strange but it in context it was beautiful.)<P>I don't also know the betrayed's pain to any real degree. My H cheated on me twice while we dated, which I see as a lesser offense but the pain I've felt (since it was just recently that I found out) was real...<P>All I can say is that he loved me when I was the least lovable I could be. I will always be blessed and thankful for that. I know he saved my life.<P>TL...I pray that you'll have peace with whatever you decide to do next...and strength to just go on..<P>take care,<BR>janet

Dang, Janet. That was just beautiful. We are so blessed, you know it? (of course you know it!)<P>

It's funny how it seems the betrayed and betrayers are on opposite sides again. The betrayed say "if Plan A isn't working for you then go to Plan B", and the betrayers are saying don't "RUN" out on your marriage and then start quoting the bible. I am not a religious person, so all I can say is NO ONE will ever be able to say what is best for another unless they have been in the person's shoes who has to make the choice to stay or go. TL, only you know what you need to do for yourself. No matter what you decide to do, just know that you will still have the support of the MB family!! Smile

Geez, T24G .... <P>It is a MARRIAGE BUILDERS forum ... and if I'm not mistaken, that would include NOT RUNNING .... I think it's ill-advised that we should tell her to give up on her marriage .... as I think it's ill-advised to tell her to think of herself .... that's what got so many of us here ... both betrayer AND betrayed.<P>And sure, I haven't walked a mile in her shoes ... but I've been in her H's shoes ... mourning the loss of what I thought was the "soulmate" of my life. I do believe it is of great value to her to hear my side of the story. Then she can look at her H in a different light ... who knows you might find it helpful too.<P>Lighten up okay? Believe it or not I'm TRYING 2 HELP.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited September 01, 1999).]

Tired Lady,<BR>Hindsight can be pretty frustrating, it seems. Saying that the needs your H expressed weren't always met, but you know what? So many of us have taken for granted in our marriages what we thought would always be there, and didn't realize then that marriage really is a work in progress. I know I sure did. It's not your fault, what happened was not of your doing. And I completely agree with the statement, "until you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes.." Only we know what our breaking point is, and how much we can take. <P>...also, the perspectives from ex-betrayers vary, and not one person can give you the absolutes regarding insight into what your husband is going through. But do know that your marriage problems can be overcome, two parties willing (sometimes even just one).<P>And to the betrayed vs. betrayers comment...can't we just all get along? '-)

Trying24give,<P>Sorry, but there's no "betrayed vs betrayer" here issue here. Unless I'm reading a different thread than you are, it seems there are some betrayed spouses (like proforg) saying to forgive and rebuild, and a few betrayers, (like myself and Madelyn) saying forgive and move on IF that is really what you want to do. But either way, TL needs to forgive, let go of the anger, bitterness and resentment because if she doesn't it will continue to eat away at her. So I don't see where you see this "betrayed vs betrayer" battle. Or maybe you're trying to create one? Please don't. We need to help each other get through this.<P>Janet,<P>I second Maya's commen. Your post was beautiful! That's what we all need to keep in mind. Marriages CAN overcome this crisis. There are so many of us who are living proof of that. Stone posted a beautiful update on his progress, and it barely got noticed. I wonder if somehow we enjoy being stuck. I wonder. I really hope not because there's a beautiful life out there waiting for us.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Maya,<P>I think you are able to offer some good advice. You have been where her H is and you are proof that he may be able to see clearly someday. But, I have seen quite a few sarcastic remarks lately (or whatever you'd like to call them) that I think are setting people off. I know in your first post, I was turned off from what you had to say because of your remark to trying2_4give. You do not have to agree with what she says, and if you want to say you don't agree, then say that. But I just think it could be done a bit more constructively.<P>I don't mean to offend you. I just think you have alot of GOOD advice to offer and people may be skipping over it because of a few unnecessary comments that you are making. Hope I didn't make you angry.<P>------------------<BR>Shoni<P><BR>

Why is it that giving my opinion is trying to create hostility. Maya and New Woman (Janet) believe that she should stay...fine...good for you....others like myself KNOW that a person can only take so much...fine...good for me/us. So yes, she will get both views and as I said in the beginning some have walked in her PATH but NO ONE has ever walked in another's shoes to know what they are feeling so NO ONE can say what would be best for them or LABEL anything as "RUNNING" or "HURTING HERSELF MORE IF SHE STAYED". She has both takes on it so get off my back about how strongly you don't agree with MY OPINION. It doesn't matter what YOU think of my words, this thread is for Tired Lady, started by Tired Lady and now I am a tired lady of these childish back and forths just because we all are not on the same sheet of music. And yes Maya it is "Marriage Builders", but don't forget even Marriage Builders teaches PLAN B!!! <BR>thank you

Whooooooaaa, Trying, hold on a minute! First of all, I am not Janet. Janet is rjr#2. Secondly, I did not say whether or not TL should or shouldn't stay. You are welcome to reread my posts. I have repeated to her in each one that she knows how much she can and cannot take. <P>What I was responding to in my last post was your stating that betrayed and betrayers are on opposing sides in this thread. That is not an opinion, that was a false statement. Read professorg's post. To my knowledge he is a betrayed spouse. And again, read mine and Madelyn's. We've both said that TL should do what is best for her and knows how much she can take.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Okay now I see where my confusion comes in New Woman, you were stating something to Janet that is why the name Janet shows under your post. I thought you were signing your real name. I apologize...Forgive me.

It's me again..... remember? The knee JERK reactionary at the top of this thread.<BR>Tired Lady,<BR> I still feel the same as my original response, that it is sad that you had to hear the details but I do agree with Maya on her side of the perspective. Hang in there as long as you can especially if you can be sure that the affair is over. Mia if you are reading this I hope for your sake you are honest when you say it's over.<BR>If it is not over then Tired Lady pick a time frame according to the book "Surviving An Affair" and stick with that. In my case I feel I enabled the affair by not going to plan B sooner, actually I never did do plan B and put up with this stuff for 3 years. I think my W got tired of waiting for me to file so she got the ball rolling. I don't think she was ever thinking of working the marriage out. She is still with the OM emotionally and she works with him, she also picked him and I bet she will get him. So much for 2 families....<BR>Take care of yourself as far as sanity and personal health but don't complicate your life any more than it already is..... good luck<BR>mkn<BR>

I apologize for my sarcasam. It was not my intent to offend, Shoni. <P>I was indeed only trying to help Tired Lady see her situation another way and hopefully understand and cope a little better.<P>And, T24G I believe it was YOU that began slamming MY opinion because it disagreed with your EXPERT opinion of Tired Lady's situation ..... and calling me 'defensive' (of all things). <P>I'll never defend of the act of betrayal in a marriage, but I will endeavor to let others know what happened in MY situation, how MY husband (the betrayed) reacted, and what has made US heal .... and I will NOT have my feelings belittled because you don't see my line of thinking.<P>In fact I don't care if you see my line of thinking, but don't get your underwear in a wad when I try to explain my feelings and opinions -- since you are screaming for respect of your opinion ... you gotta be able to give it to GET it.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited September 01, 1999).]

BTW, Tired Lady:<P>Sir Hurts Alot gave Stonehenge some GREAT advice on helping a betrayer cope with withdrawal .... it does mirror what I've said, but I hope you'll check it out anyway.<P>

Tired Lady -- I ran. Our situations sound so alike. I accept my shortcomings in the marriage throughout the years. I did put a lot of energy into my kids, their activities and running the house. My H also has a very demanding job, and he would have appreciated backrubs and me meeting him at the door with a glass of wine. I worked hard too. He made no efforts either. One played off the other.<P>He has lied and made me feel like dirt. Since implemented plan A, our treatment of each other has gone from being hateful and rude to polite and nice most of the time. He continued to say he doesn't love me, doesn't want to work on marriage, yada yada yada. <P>My job performance suffered and my mind had started to go. I left my car in drive checking the mail and had to just watch it roll down the driveway into a tree. That's just the most expensive dumb thing I did. <P>To go home at night and see this look of "woe is me" sitting and staring at the TV got to be more than I could take. The only time he touched me was when he wanted a little. He didn't put much effort into that at times either. Afterwards he would just roll over and go to sleep.<P>I never got a compliment about anything. When we would get into a discussion about "us" he would just say "what do you want me to say, [censored]?"<P>I looked in the mirror one day and saw that I was one "tired lady". I'm 45 years old and have a lot of life left in me. I told him 3 mos. ago I was moving out the first of Sept. if I saw no effort from him to change. What did he do? Nothing. Nothing but sit and sulk because "he doesn't know who he wants to spend his life with or what he wants". <P>When I started packing, he would avoid the area. Avoid the conversation. When I told him I was willing to put the move off for a while if he would try, he said nothing. <P>When our dream home sold the second day it was on the market, that was the first slap in his face. When he saw me taking my things from the house, that's when he broke down and cried. Did he ask me not to move? No. Hell no. He said he "felt guilty" for causing everything.<P>Now that I am gone he is finally facing what he is losing. His kids call me when they need to talk and he sees that I am doing well without him. He calls me at least every other day. <P>THE BEST NEWS -- it took me leaving and him to hit rock bottom to make him realize he needs therapy and antidepressants. He has finally started therapy and has a prescription for prozac. As for myself, the first week was really, really hard. This week has been much better. Last night I got a full night's sleep for the first time in over a year.<P>Tired Lady -- no one else has lived in your home through all this. Yes, it would be great if we could love them through this. I tried for over a year to love him through this, only to continually be rebuffed. My self-esteem was gone. My self-confidence took a licking. He knows I am more than willing to work on our marriage only if he will make some effort. I look at the fact he has gone to the doctor for a physical, started counseling today and is willing to take the antidepressant as the only effort he can offer right now. However, that is more than I've had in over a year. <P>If I hadn't run, he would still be sitting in the chair staring at the tv every night.<P> <p>[This message has been edited by Janie (edited September 01, 1999).]

I am a betrayed spouse. I've never been through anything like this in my life. I think that the only two things that could hurt me more is the death of my children or my H. My H left a month ago to live with the OW, he ran from me. Even through all that he has put me through the past few months I still love him and want to have my marriage back. I'm happy that betrayers are on this forum. They have given us many insights of why our spouses have done this. But until they have walked in our shoes they will never know the horrible pain and suffering that affairs cause. They may say that they understand ect but until they live it themselves there is no way they will ever fully understand it. Likewise I will never understand the pain that my H must be going through to have done this to his wife and three kids. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is just to much hurt to expect the betrayed to fully support the advice from a betrayer. I hope this is coming out right. I'm not saying that the betrayers on this forum arn't needed or wanted. Like I said before I have learned alot from them and want to continue to learn from the lessons that they have learned. I just think that in reality they should expect to get some grief over some of the things they say as most of us betrayed are very angry, hurt people who do feel the need to lash out to those who are on the other side. I hope this makes sense and doesn't hurt anyones feelings.

I do understand and I have walked in those shoes. So have several other betrayers. And let me say, just because I had an affair didn't numb me from the pain of finding out my H cheated. I love my H, have always loved him, never wanted to be with anyone else, but I just didn't know how to get close to him and didn't know how to get him to fulfill my needs and really had almost all but given up. Yes, I allowed a cheap stand in to come into my life, but I was completely devastated to learn my H had cheated on me too. Completely devastated. After the shock, first thing I thought was, "what a terrible waste." Here we were, two people who loved each other, yet were clueless of how to love each other.<P>I expect people to be hurting, I expect people to be angry ........ but not angry at anyone on this forum. I think often that anger is displaced. And even though it may be expected, it doesn't feel good and shuts down communication. What we should be doing is building communication and finding common ground.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

New Woman,<P>I wasn't talking about you or others who have been on both sides. You more than anyone know the pain from all angles. All I was trying to do, was to, in some way bring some understanding to all the bitterness that has been going on here lately. I personaly have no bad feelings for most of the people who post here. Most of the people who post here are very good caring individuals who are only here to help themselves or help others. You are a very good person and i have learned alot from you so please don't take what i said personally.<P>Jill

Hi Jill,<P>Okay! I know you understand and have told me as such. As long as we all keep trying to understand each other, we're on the right track! Take care!<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Okay, Okay Miss Maya...maybe you should read the responses from the begininning and then you will take notice that you are the one that put my opinion down FIRST and I came back to defend my opinion. And as far as you letting her know what happened in your situation, like i said before re-read from the beginning...not only did you tell her what happened to you, you also she has to put her feelings on hold and that is when i replied with my questions of how long should everyone wait in your expert opinion. So spare me the "I didn't respect what you had to say first". And don't you ever worry about me getting my underwear in a wad. I only do THONGS honey! get over it and move on.

Whoa. That was a visual I didn't need.<P>T24G, please see my apology post. It's for you too. I've been out of line and I am very sorry.<P>I have moved on. Thank you for reminding me of that.