Just thought over 50 posts was getting a little difficult to process.
<br>Thanks for your help, everyone.
<br>I'm sure glad we have this forum.
<br>Greg

I echo Greg's sentiments. Nat says things my wife has said. She has asked me how I expect her to fake feelings and that she simply will not do it.
<br>Yet I have to say that even though the level of affection I receive is not to my liking, yet she does give it out. Only minutes ago we had a good conversation about men and women. She was explaining things to me about the unrealistic expectations they often have of one another. As I sat and listened I was admiring her intelligence. Not that she was ever stupid but she has definitely grown sharper over the years. I can't believe I let things get to the point where I failed to notice so much.
<br>The conversation was good, and I did more listening than talking. I am going to try and make sure we have more time in which we can talk and get closer in the near future.
<br>As to how to deal with that incomprehensible beast of loving the person but not being in love with them, well, I'll have to take that a day at a time. It's more than I can handle otherwise.

Greg and Bruce;
<br>Good idea Greg to start a new thread. I'm we are able to help each out. It seems easier to get your point of views on this issue than discuss it with my husband. Actually, we just got in from doing some errands. While we were in the car, I explained to him how you guys feel about how hard it is to hold back your affection for our (the wives) sakes and asked him did he feel the same way and did this bother him. The last thing I want to do is cause more problems; dont' know how more I could handle. He said it bothered him, and he felt angry before I wrote him the letter telling him how I REALLY felt. He said it was hard reading it, but hearing what I had to say in my own words seemed to clarify the way I had been acting. He says it's really hard sitting back and waiting, but because he takes responsibility for a lot of the problems that have led up to this, he said he will wait until I'm ready. I don't blame him entirely, I should have delt with issues as they arose. Instead of allowing him to treat
<br>me like he "owned" me I should have told him; and I should have told him how much it hurt to be put down and not acknowledged for my feelings. So anyways, I guess my point here is we have let so much garbage get in the way, but finally talking about it feels really good. We are supposed to go to a wedding this weekend, and I'm actually very excited to go - with him! I think we have to talk about all those mistakes we both made in the past, the ones that were never resolved, the ones that really caused pain and created deep wounds. I told him how much I wanted a husband who would stand beside me though life and make decisions with me; not for me. I feel much better tonight; just thought you'd like to know. It feels good to hear him admit to his faults in the past. Maybe that's what all of us women have in common; instead of simply saying, "what you just said really hurt my fellings", we just swallow it and wait for it to blow over, but we never really forget about it. I'm glad to hear that the lines of communication are opening between you and your wives. Again, guys don't give up on us yet. I think we need to heal some old wounds before we can let you back into our hearts. I don't have negative feelings towards my husband, there is no hate there, just indifference; kind of like working with a blank template. Well gotta go. Take care - go chat it up with you other halves. Talk to you tomorrow.
<br>I need to figure out how to do that happy face thing.
<br>Nat.

I'm finding the lack of affection really difficult to cope with too. My husband doesn't mind a kiss at bedtime, and the occasional hug, but any more than that makes him uncomfortable. I know I have to be patient, but it's really difficult. We are only at the beginning of the process, so I know I can't expect improvements overnight.
<p>I'm also finding it difficult to talk to my husband. We don't find it difficult to talk about the problems in our relationship. I'm finding it difficult to have a 'normal' conversation with him. I am conscious of the fact that I need to talk to him, but I feel awkward and can't think of anything to say. The more I think like this, the more difficult it is to say something. Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do?
<br>Thanks
<br>Bev

Nat,
<br>Like the other guys have said. You sound just like my wife. She said she was unhappy for longer than I thought. She kept things bottled up inside. She said she didn't want to hurt me.
<br> To all,
<br>If anything, I know I am a better person because of this crisis. I have already learned to listen, better than I ever have. I am getting better at trying to understand her feelings without getting so defensive. It really hurts at times to hear some of her comments. However, I love sitting there talking for hours about our relationship and how things went during the day. Prior to this incident, I spent more time in front of the TV than talking with my wife. I have rediscovered how truly I treasure her! In my opinion, the key is to really listen without getting all upset and defensive. Keeping a open line of conversation, is so important. A lot of our earlier conversations, ended up where I couldn't control my emotions! It hurt so bad! I might be a little numb - but I have been able to control myself.
<p>My wife says the feeling she has is indifference! I think that really scares her!. I think it is better than hating me! She thinks there is a fine line between love and hate - and that her feelings of love might be easier to restore!
<p>I crave affection too. However, I have put it out of my mind (as much as possible)! The slightest sign of affection from her makes me feel great. But I don't want to smother her!. It seems that is a real turnoff. One way I get to feel close to her is our nightly back massage. I have made it a point - and have told her - I will give her a rub down every night she wants one with no strings attached! In the past, she felt obligated to reciprocate with a sexual favor! She loves to be rubbed! I have found myself looking forward to being able to express myself this way. The pressure is off, because she makes the call whether she wants one - and no sex has to follow.
<p>I have had pretty good couple of days! In fact, My wife has called me a few times at work! She hasn't done this in awhile. Yesterday, she told me she has been feeling a little better about us! This morning when she went to teach aerobics class - she said "Dear" don't over sleep. I am trying not to read so much into little things like that - However, I think we all crave the little signs of improvement. When she called me this morning, she mentioned she caught herself calling me "Dear". She said it felt natural and that maybe her feelings were coming back to her! I pray for this - but we have all been on this rollercoaster ride! I know there is more trouble ahead - but i just want toi enjoy these feelings for awhile.
<p>I appreciate each and every one of you. I find myself coming to this forum 3 or 4 times a day to see how everyone is doing!
<br>I pray we all maintain the strength to fight for our loved ones.
<p>Take Care,
<p>Ken

Nat, I guess you're right that some healing has to occur before our wifes let us back into their hearts. And when I remind myself that I made the bed I'm lying in it helps me to restrain myself from being too pushy.
<br>Yet I do wish she would have said something years ago instead of holding it in all this time. If she had I would have done something before now. She told me that she didn't feel like she had a choice except to hold it in. She said that if she had told me I would have been in shock, and to hold it in seemed like the easier course.
<br>But I don't buy it. It had to come to a head sooner or later, so wouldn't it have been better to do it sooner? I was not spared the shock though it came later. In fact it was somewhat of a relief, bad as it was, from endless arguments. At least then I understood what I was up against. What can you do until you understand how a person is thinking and feeling? Now I have to overcome years of compacted frustrations which have caused her heart to harden. And from what I'm learning it simply is not a quick process for a woman to be restored from that.
<br>Now I'm in a situation where it's feast or famine. One day it's a feast of affection. The next day it's famine. I tell you it couldn't be more tortuous if it had been purposely devised.
<br>On my part, after doing some thinking, I realize that one reason why the lack of affection zings me the way it does is because when it occurs it dredges up insecurities. One cannot bear the effect of insecurites (at least not those as emotionally charged as these) and be effective in the affairs of daily life. So anger develops because the withholding of affection comes across as a weapon being used against me though I'm sure she doesn't mean it that way.
<br>When my wife spends time with me in intimacy I come away feeling recharged and ready to do anything. When she is distant from me for a period of time I can hardly function properly. Some small tokens of affection from day to day would be preferable to a lot on Saturday night and none on Sunday and Monday. Yet, until the healing process has more dominance, I guess I don't have much choice.
<br>So, the reality is, and it's a reality I don't want to face, that I have to learn to live with it while doing my best -short of smothering her - to hasten it. It's a high wire act when I never went through Tight Rope Walking 101 yet.
<br>But the bottom line is that there is no choice if I hope to regain a right relationship. It makes being between a rock and a hard place look inviting.

Bev,
<p>I know how difficult it is to have the "Normal" conversations. My wife and I have had more recently. We do a lot of talking when I give her a nightly back rub. We talk a lot about her classes at school. Is there any interests you both share? If not, what is he passionate about! Talk about something he is passionate about! I know it is easier said than done! At times, I feel like a stranger with my wife! A lot of our normal conversations evolve out of our "relationship" conversations. Don't quit trying!
<p>I wish I could be more helpful!
<p>Good Luck, Ken.

Ken, keep on truckin buddy. Glad to here of any shred of progress. I need to gain the control you have attained. Thanks for the example.

Ken,
<p>Things have improved since he first told me. For the first few weeks, I was really depressed, which made him feel guilty, and then impatient with me. All I could think about was how bleak and lonely my life without him would be. When he first told me, he said it was nothing I had done, it was him that had changed. He agreed to go to counselling, but wouldn't go as far as saying that we would try and make things work.
<br>Since then, we have had 3 joint counselling sessions. I have also made a conscious effort to be more positive and happier. This has made a difference to the way he acts towards me. Since we have been talking, he has expressed a lot of anger towards me, saying that he hates me for a lot of things. He also agrees that there is a fine line between love and hate. He also admits that there is something left of his feelings for me, but there is a lot of anger and hatred he has to deal with. this is more than he would admit 2 months ago. He is now willing to try and make the relationship work, even though we are going to live apart for a while.. I do have more hope than I had 2 months ago, and I think that is mainly due to me taking a lot of the pressure off him, and making a real effort to change my behaviour.
<br>Regards
<br>Bev

Hello everyone,
<p>This is more of a request than a reply. It's nice to hear so many couple working through their dificulties. I am currently experiencing some major problems in my marriage. Because I have posted my situation before (see resolving conflicts- counseling) I won't get redundant, but suffice it to say I can't convince my wife of 23+ years to go to counseling with in an effort to try to save our marriage.
<p>We were always best of friends as well as great lovers. Affection was never a problem, in my mind. If anyone can offer suggestions, please do.
<p>Best wishes to all of you.
<p>Need help.
<p>John

Nat,
<br>Now I am totally confused. Last night I got home and my W was on the phone. I kissed her on the top of her head. Then walked away and said hello to the kids.
<br>I went out to play tennis a little later, and kissed her on her cheek. She stopped me and said that I should kiss her on her mouth. OK.
<br>By the time I got back from tennis, she was asleep. It was late, so I was not upset or anything. When she got up in the morning, she said she would have liked me to wake her up so that we could kiss each other goodnight. OK!
<br>Then, as I was leaving for work, I gave, and recieved the most passionate kiss in months. She said that it was really nice. OK!!.
<br>Now, this is after telling what everyone here has posted. Her inability to show affection. She still goes days without telling me she loves me. So, some things remain consistant.
<p>To all,
<br>Last night my W told me that she discovered the HISTORY folder on the computer. She found out that I come to this (and other sites). She was not upset with me, but actually felt sorry that she put ME in the position that I have to come here.
<br>I asked her to take a look at some of the posts. She seemed disinterested.
<br>Also, about normal conversations. Lets remember that nothing is normal now. So, even normal conversations will be strained. There will always be the pressure to discuss the REAL issues, rather than small talk. The small talk is almost non-existant with me and my W. We have to re-gain that.
<br>Bruce,
<br>I agree with you. My W said she held this in for close to 2 years. Also did not want to hurt my feelings. Two years of constant yelling at me and the kids. Two years of fights over nothing.

O.K. - here goes a very long post; bare with me! Where to begin??? O.K.; first to Bruce and Bill - I'm not sure how to word this so it's makes sense to you, as I'm sure our situations are different. Since I was very young my biggest concern has been to make the others in my life happy and always be the one who succeeds. For example - neither my brother or sister went to university - my parents wanted a university graduate in the family - so that's what I did. Both my brother and sister's marriages have failed, so I felt this incredible pressure that no matter what, mine had to succeed; now as problems arose in our marriage, I was so worried about others knowing so I would just let it go without resolving the issue at the time (I take responsibility for this causing half the problems we now have). It's all of these "never forgotten" problems that I think have just worn me down. Your absolutely right that we should have talked about our feelings sooner, but in my case, I never realized how severe the situation had gotten, until I stepped back just a few weeks ago and said this is not a real marriage, and it's not fair to either one of us. So do you see, that yes we should have talked about all the small or large issues in the relationship as they came up, but do to our lack of communication and due the type of person he was then, and the type of person I was - always afraid of him judging me instead of listening to me, I smiled and let it go.
<br>I noticed that in many of the posts things are looking up and it seems to be due to the increase in conversation level, and you guys just holding back and being patient - you're all truly great stars! I know that I look forward to my back rub at night, especially since I don't feel the pressure that he's expecting more right now. The little things seem to be drawing us closer. I have never had a problem with the small talk - that's all we've had for the past 5 years, it's the deep rooted stuff I have a really hard time to discuss. So this brings me to Bill. Well bud, I don't really know what to tell you. I find myself more drawn to my H at certain times then not as much at other times. I haven't been able to tell him I love him, I feel that's just a false sense of hope. I mean I do love him but not completely right now, and saying it just doesn't feel right. Maybe your wife is starting to get some feelings back, and realizes that there are certain things that she misses. Maybe you should tell her that you know she needs space right now and you don't want to smother her, but that your confused about how much intimacy she wants from you right now. I know I
<br>can handle the small things, sharing back rubs, small kisses, hugs here and there, hold hands as we fall asleep; and I've let him know that, and I'm so lucky that he's respecting that. I see my husband in a different light right now. I have a lot of respect for him, for standing by in this limbo and just waiting. He keeps his hopes high, and mine are increasing slowly each day. It's like starting all over, starting to open up to each other, and getting to know each other all over again. We are gaining a whole new type of respect for one another.
<br>Take care guys, hang in there. I'm really glad you're here with me!
<br>Jon - I was lucky enough that my husband wanted to do the councelling thing when we had problems a few years ago. This time I just went on my own, to try and get a hold on where my head is at. I'm not sure how to convince her that she should give it a try. I truly believe that you have to give it your all, and try to fix what has gone wrong; then whether or not it works out, you can still hold your head up and say - I gave it an honest try. Not to sound harsh, but it sounds like she is tired and has just given up. My sister's marriage didn't work out, she moved out with the kids; didn't try councelling. Now she looks back and wishes that she would have tried harder, and worked harder to keep her marriage together. She just got tired and fed up, and walked away. Now she's left to raise to young kids by herself. Her advice to me was that I had to shake up the pot, lay everything out on the table, take a chance and see what happens. I'm lucky that so far things are looking better. Good luck John, I hope she realizes that you haven't given up on her yet, and what does she have to loose by taking a chance on you?
<br>Nat.

O.K. - here goes a very long post; bare with me! Where to begin??? O.K.; first to Bruce and Bill - I'm not sure how to word this so it's makes sense to you, as I'm sure our situations are different. Since I was very young my biggest concern has been to make the others in my life happy and always be the one who succeeds. For example - neither my brother or sister went to university - my parents wanted a university graduate in the family - so that's what I did. Both my brother and sister's marriages have failed, so I felt this incredible pressure that no matter what, mine had to succeed; now as problems arose in our marriage, I was so worried about others knowing so I would just let it go without resolving the issue at the time (I take responsibility for this causing half the problems we now have). It's all of these "never forgotten" problems that I think have just worn me down. Your absolutely right that we should have talked about our feelings sooner, but in my case, I never realized how severe the situation had gotten, until I stepped back just a few weeks ago and said this is not a real marriage, and it's not fair to either one of us. So do you see, that yes we should have talked about all the small or large issues in the relationship as they came up, but do to our lack of communication and due the type of person he was then, and the type of person I was - always afraid of him judging me instead of listening to me, I smiled and let it go.
<br>I noticed that in many of the posts things are looking up and it seems to be due to the increase in conversation level, and you guys just holding back and being patient - you're all truly great stars! I know that I look forward to my back rub at night, especially since I don't feel the pressure that he's expecting more right now. The little things seem to be drawing us closer. I have never had a problem with the small talk - that's all we've had for the past 5 years, it's the deep rooted stuff I have a really hard time to discuss. So this brings me to Bill. Well bud, I don't really know what to tell you. I find myself more drawn to my H at certain times then not as much at other times. I haven't been able to tell him I love him, I feel that's just a false sense of hope. I mean I do love him but not completely right now, and saying it just doesn't feel right. Maybe your wife is starting to get some feelings back, and realizes that there are certain things that she misses. Maybe you should tell her that you know she needs space right now and you don't want to smother her, but that your confused about how much intimacy she wants from you right now. I know I
<br>can handle the small things, sharing back rubs, small kisses, hugs here and there, hold hands as we fall asleep; and I've let him know that, and I'm so lucky that he's respecting that. I see my husband in a different light right now. I have a lot of respect for him, for standing by in this limbo and just waiting. He keeps his hopes high, and mine are increasing slowly each day. It's like starting all over, starting to open up to each other, and getting to know each other all over again. We are gaining a whole new type of respect for one another.
<br>Take care guys, hang in there. I'm really glad you're here with me!
<br>Jon - I was lucky enough that my husband wanted to do the councelling thing when we had problems a few years ago. This time I just went on my own, to try and get a hold on where my head is at. I'm not sure how to convince her that she should give it a try. I truly believe that you have to give it your all, and try to fix what has gone wrong; then whether or not it works out, you can still hold your head up and say - I gave it an honest try. Not to sound harsh, but it sounds like she is tired and has just given up. My sister's marriage didn't work out, she moved out with the kids; didn't try councelling. Now she looks back and wishes that she would have tried harder, and worked harder to keep her marriage together. She just got tired and fed up, and walked away. Now she's left to raise to young kids by herself. Her advice to me was that I had to shake up the pot, lay everything out on the table, take a chance and see what happens. I'm lucky that so far things are looking better. Good luck John, I hope she realizes that you haven't given up on her yet, and what does she have to loose by taking a chance on you?
<br>Nat.

SORRY, SORRY SORRY!!! NOT ONLY WAS IT A REALLY LONG POST BUT I SOMEHOW POSTED IT TWICE!!
<br>SORRY!
<br>NAT

I just felt the need to express my feelings today! This morning started out real hectic. We all woke up late! There was a lot of yelling - crying kids etc. It is a bad way to start the day under any circumstances. Therefore, I didn't feel any of the closeness I felt the last couple of days. The last few days have been as good as can be expected! I even have been receiving some mild affection from my wife!
<p>It feels so good! However, it is hard to enjoy these feelings fully. Its hard to seperate the joy of receiving some affection with the fact she doesn't love me right now. I wonder if she is forcing herself to show this affection - testing to see if she has any feelings for me. If she doesn't feel anything does it affirm to her that she just doesn't love me anymore?
<p>Yesterday I was on a high! Today, I am a bringing myself down - with no clear cut reason, but the thought my wife will never love me! Why must I over analyze everything? I take everything she says and does and try to decipher the "true" meaning behind it! Last night I heard some things from her I consider positive. For example, she told me she was glad I didn't just say the hell with this. She was glad I stuck it out with her so far. I felt good about that comment. However, I was afraid to ask her in more detail what she meant. I was afraid I would hear something that would kill the positive feelings! I can't do this anymore - I am going to make a concerted effort to understand exactly what she is saying.
<p>I just needed to express some feelings!

Nat,
<br>I think that my W was in a similar frame of mind. One's marriage failed, and the other is in a miserable marriage. Her parents looked to her/us as the GOOD marriage in the family. She has said that she feels that she has been living up to other peoples expectations for her whole life.
<br>As for the intimacy confusion. I guess the rules keep changing. We will have to sit down and have a heart-to-heart about just what she is comfortable with.
<br>

Ken,
<br>I have been having the same problem with over analyzing things. I know it's non-productive because it gets me into a huff sometimes and then I find out that my wife wasn't thinking anything remotely like the tortured conclusions I had come to.
<br>You almost can't help doing it because the underlying motivation is that if you can figure something out it may be an insight of some sort that might help hasten a closure to your situation or at least help you understand what seems to be such a riddle.
<br>My wife told me last night that she understands why I'm magnifying some of this stuff in my mind but that I need to stop doing it.
<br>So, know that you aren't alone. i do this all the time. I need to relax on it.

I have decided to change how I word things, it's not that I don't love my H (probably in your W's case too), because love is the whole picture right? I still sometimes find myself thinking about the future or even mention a future plan to a friend - and it always involves my H. I don't know if that's just habit, it feels normal for him to be there. So I guess it's not that I don't love him right now, I just don't have deep intimate feelings for him. Put yourself in our shoes, (I know you're probably saying that would never happen), it's a very unfamiliar place to be. My moods are up and down right now to. When I feel he's to close I draw back. After reading what you guys are going through, I see what I'm putting my H. though. I'm sorry for that, and almost makes it easy to go back to the way things were and pretend that everything is rosy.

Nat,
<br>Let me ask you a question. Not having these intimate feelings or passion for your husband, which I feel is what all of us are experiencing from our spouses, does it make you feel more open to wanting to find passion from someone else? I know you mentioned your intimate feelings for your friend, do you also find that you put yourself in situations that allow someone, other than your husband, to be closer to you as apposed to if you had intimate, passionate feelings for your husband? What I'm trying to ask, I guess, is do you want intimacy and passion in your life and are you willing to leave yourself open to the possibility of receiving it?
<br>Forgive me if this is a bad question, but it is what I ask myself constantly. I have asked my wife the same questions and she tells me no. But I sometimes wonder if she is just softening the blow and trying to make it easier on me and her as well. I don't know, I find myself over-analyzing everything as well.
<br>Take care
<br>Greg

Greg,
<br>That is what my wife was looking for when she had her affair. Passion. She said she did not find it. So the blow to me came twofold. The affair, and lack of love/passion.
<br>I feel that I have always show her passion. It was just not what she was looking for. She reads many romance novels and sees passion in these. I have told her that I plan to romance her and make her fall back IN LOVE with me. Passionately.
<p>Nat,
<br>My wife also includes "US" in all future conversations. We just made plans for April and she talks about next year. We have a family vacation planned for February. I once voiced my fears that I would not be accompanying her and the kids. She became visibly upset at this. Also, one evening, I was having trouble falling asleep, and she kept telling me to "think of our future".
<br>It all gets so confusing.