I'm gonna get back to the original intention of this thread . <P>I just posted kind of a blistering response to momof2. This bleeds into it. I still like my XW, but with time away and some perspective, I see things much differently than a year and a half ago. IMHO, staying in "Plan A" too long is dangerous, dillusional. I know some folks make mistakes, but after a fair amount of time it becomes apparent that maybe it's not so much a mistake as it is a character flaw. My XW and I "needed" too much. If you have these kinds of issues, the other person will always disapoint you. I have followed the rule of not getting involved with another woman during this transition, it's paid huge dividends. I have moments where I go back ad touch the hurt, but for the most part I think it would be a bad idea to get back together just to soothe them. Ther has to be real change, not just need..<P>Eric

I know a guy I play basketball with, whose w left him and lived with her boss. They ended up divorcing. She later returned home and is living with her xh, but they have not remarried. I don't know what the time frame is. They have been living together at least a year.<P>BonnieSept & decisiontime<P>You both are saying what my x has said. That she was unhappy in our marriage for at least 10 yrs. Funny thing is, she never mentioned it to me or any of her girl friends. However when om showed up, everything became clear to her that she had to get out of the marriage.<P>My counselor called this an exit affair. My x wanted out of the marriage and didn't know how. Then the affair happened, and I'm not saying she had it intentionally, but this gave her the reason to get out. Now I think she is afraid to be alone so she is stuck with the guy. I also think her pride is too strong to attempt to come back as she made two feeble attempts before, one lasted about 5 hrs and the other a week.

Hilly,<P>My H left me to live with OW. He would still tell me that he loved me and knew the right thing to do would be to come home, but he felt that he was "stuck". He felt that he was obligated to her now even though he wasn't sure if he loved her. Every time I asked about a divorce, he wouldn't answer. Finally, I gave him an ultimatum. Told him that if he didn't leave her now, that I was going the next day to file for separation. What really got him motivated though was that I told him that I was lonely and needed someone. That I would get second looks from other guys and felt like doing something about it. He said that he couldn't take it if I was with someone else, so he left her! He finally realized that I wouldn't wait for him anymore, so he took the steps he needed to work things out with me.

Justme, what happened between you and your husband is very common if there is still loving feelings in the betrayers heart. You said your husband told you he still loved you but felt stuck. The choice you made to tell him you were not going to just sit around and wait for him to change his mind was a very wise one in your situation. I have two girlfriends who had husbands cheating on them. One didn't move out but stayed in the basement while still going out and seeing the ow. The other moved into his own apartment so he could see the ow when ever he wanted. Both told their wives that they still loved them but they needed to resolve their feelings for the ow. Both of these women told their husband's the same thing that you did and when faced with the reality of divorce they both came home with their tails between their legs. Good luck to you!

BonnieSept: The bottom line is that you don't KNOW if you and your husband could have reconciled after your affair. You made assumptions that are not provable either way, and are presenting them here as fact.<P>Statistical evidence collected by professional marriage therapists and others very explicitly indicates that the feelings of regret for ending a marriage due to infidelity can take as much as 5 years to really surface, although the average is between 6 months and 2 years.<P>You are using only yourself as an example - while some may say you are doing so as justification for your own actions, it doesn't really matter. You are only ONE example - countless others have been counted and they are the vast majority.<P>This is not intended as a slam in any way - just trying to put this into perspective.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

I have to agree with RWD.It took OM's coaching to make my W realise she'd been unhappy"for years".Funny,she never asked me if I was happy.I suppose I could of had an affair,too,based on that thinking.It isn't your spouse's job to make you happy.I've had some unhappiness over the years,but I didn't blame it all on my W.<BR> I think she had an exit affair,too.I'm sure OM convinced her if she cheated on me,I'd kick her out of the house.Only after she had an affair,were our differences insurmountable.The marriage counseler couldn't even find any major problems except W being in love with BoyToy.I just got"traded in"for a newer model.Now I'm just an old Chevy in the boneyard that nobody wants! --Murph

My stbx wrote me a letter about a week before moving out. In it he still claims to love me and that he will take care of me for the rest of my life.<P>Then down the line he says that he had not loved me in about 2 years.....then farther down the line...he has not loved me in 7 years......<P>at the Custody evaluators......he had not loved me in a long time. Our marriage was empty.....<P>Of course like a few others on this post....I was never aware of his unhappiness....not until I found out about OW.<P>In 4 months is our final divorce hearing/custody hearing. He hates me.....will never come back....nor am I sure I want him to come back.<P>I hate all of this<P>It all boils down to the fact:<P>Affairs suck<BR>They hurt innocent people<BR>They ruin families<BR>They are one of the most horrible things someone can do to a person who loves them<BR>Children suffer<P>What I have learned is that most wayward spouses have not a clue how unhappy they are in their marriages until someone tells them, shows them and continues to persuade them that they can find happiness with them.<P>PERIOD<P>Nancy

Nancy: BINGO! Very Well Said! Sad but true!<P>Missy2<P>

ah yes, indifference. There is something wrong with these non-feelers. a searing of conscious or as the scripture says given over to a reprobate mind. hopefully there will be repentance and sorrow but many have worked so hard to achieve just these ends.

We have to face it many are receiving what they have worked overtime to achieve. they wanted out and they have done whatever necessary to achieve dissolution. maybe some regret but do they regret enough to take the time and steps to affect a cure. Indifference is the nail in the coffin.

ah yes, indifference. There is something wrong with these non-feelers. a searing of conscious or as the scripture says given over to a reprobate mind. hopefully there will be repentance and sorrow but many have worked so hard to achieve just these ends.

Why is it that the betrayers find it so difficult to leave OP - when apparently they had no such difficulty leaving their spouses?!?!? Why is it so easy to leave someone you took vows with, and spent a good portion of your life with, maybe even had children with, but so difficult to leave someone with whom you are having a relationship that is based on lies and cheating? I guess I will never understand!!!

HI All,<BR>My two cents:<BR> Nancy said:<P>"What I have learned is that most wayward spouses have not a clue how unhappy they are in their marriages until someone tells them, shows them and continues to persuade them that they can find happiness with them."<BR> I really feel this is true in MOST cases too!<P> In mine we never had a "perfect" marriage, but neither one of us ARE perfect!<P> I was busy working AND trying to start a business that would allow us a MUCH better life AND more time together.<P> My W felt Lonely, Depressed and alone. I see this much clearer now. She tried a lot of different things to "get my attention"<P> One of them being getting her nails done. She waited for me to notice. I didn't. She cried on OM shoulder. He'd tell her how Beautiful her nails looked and how beautiful she was and how she wasn't getting old (he's 61!!) and all that crap!<BR> ALL HE HAD TO DO WAS WAIT FOR ME TO MAKE A MISTAKE and BANG!!! He'd JUMP all over it.<BR> <BR> Let's face it. The OP in our wayward spouses lives HAD a HUGE advantage (I said HAD, I'll get to that) over us because they didn't have to GUESS what our S's needs were!! They just had to LISTEN to what they complained about and DO THE OPPOSITE!!!! HOW EASY IS THAT!! Making HUGE Love Deposits all the way down the line!! With NO REAL LIFE OBSTACLES EITHER!! What a CAKE WALK!!!<P> We, on the other hand were expected to KNOW what they wanted by some sort of SOUL MATE connection!! OK, if we listened as well as OP we would have known BUT, WE WERE DEALING WITH KIDS, JOBS, MONEY ISSUES, LEAKY ROOFS, FLAT TIRES, COLDS, FAMILY ISSUES ETC....<P> ALL they had to do (OP) was sit back listen for the hour or two they SNUCK in together and tell our spouses WHAT THEY WANTED TO HEAR!!! <BR> <BR> As a result, in the fog, our S's think they have found the person who UNDERSTANDS THEM BETTER THAN ANYONE!! Their "best friend" their "soul mate"!! All the while the OP just PLAYS THE PART. SMOKE AND MIRRORS, THAT'S AN AFFAIR. <BR> <BR> Now I said I'd get back to "HAD" the advantage. This "charade" can't last forever. OP starts to "slip up" make mistakes, become HUMAN for God's sake!!<P> For those who have hardly any contact with S, this may be good because NOW OP has to "wing" it with NO NEGATIVE BLUEPRINT to PLAY against!! PLUS, they let down their defenses because they THINK they've WON the WAR!! <BR> <P> BIG MISTAKE for those OP that have a spouse here that "USES THE PRINCIPALS" of MB<BR> They are now dealing with a NEW and IMPROVED (hopefully) Spouse that KNOWS how to deposit Love into their S's bank and (hopefully) NOT make any (real) WITHDRAWALS. One that provides a "safe" alliterative and slowly becomes LESS to blame for the EA/PA.<P><BR> As time goes on and OP shows who they REALLY are, a POOR SUBSTITUTE for the H or W left behind (at least MOST OP seem to be a "DOWNGRADE" from the S from what I've read from betrayers here) They just "ARTIFICIALLY" and with tricks and a phony front, made the wayward spouse "Feel Good" OR fall in love with them. <BR> <BR> IF the wayward spouse hasn't made too many "Withdrawals" Or the betrayed hasn't done the same with too many LBs, there can be reconciliation. <BR> I KNOW, there has to be LOVE right. Well, when all the smoke and mirrors are taken down as long as there is a TINY spark, Love can grow out of;<BR>Relief that the wayward spouse came back for the betrayed and the relief of anger for the betrayer for the betrayed after realizing that we "stuck it out inspite" and we are HUMAN and never meant to hurt them to begin with. AND one more thing, the AFFAIR made a DEEP DEEP line in the sand in the Marriage and THAT was when the REAL breakdown came about!!<BR> WHEW!! I'm sorry for the LONG post!! GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK<BR> <P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom is why!!"<P>

Please Help,<P>But there are fewer sources of stress with the OP. The betrayer doesn't have to worry much about his kids, and she takes care of hers. And if his kids are a problem, well, she just tells him to see less of them. And he doesn't really have to worry much about home repair, etc., since it isn't his house, and anyway, she's got plenty of money to hire someone to take care of any problems. All he has to worry about most days is going to work. He doesn't have to worry about taking care of the kids on a day-to-day basis; he can just take them fun places. He can come home and relax - no one asking him to read them a story, no young kids making noise. Of course the OW has an advantage - the betrayer is on perpetual vacation with few financial worries. How can anyone compete with that?

Nellie,<BR>You are so right....and my d told me ow told her "well your dad and mom fight" Yes we did voice our differences, and not always agree about child rearing. Of course when ow entered the picture, H found fault with everything at home...me, kids, friends, what we did...so there was nothing to please him....and ow just fed into this and the more she "adored him and put him on a pedestal because of how much he made financially" the more he wanted the same adoration from me, which could not be as it is so warped and twisted as to what our relationship was UNTIL ow entered the picture.<P>So...I do not think my H will ever regret what he lost and will still lose as he wants and has his TROPHY...something I never was, did not do not and will not be for anyone, most of all myself.<P>

I think some betrayers might get divorced anyway and some affairs are exit affairs. Also my therapist told me that there is already something very wrong in a marriage (at least with one of the partners anyway) for one person to fall deeply in love with someone else, not just in lust or short term but deeply in love. Of course the problem is that the unhappy spouse doesn't communicate it to the other spouse and then makes the totally wrong choice of having an affair rather than communicating. But also my therapist told me that the poor communication is usually there in the marriage for a long time prior to the affair and that both marriage partners have had a part in that problem. <P>I do agree with what one other poster said which is that no one can force someone to be controlled. Nellie the OW may be behind some suggestions and probably is but it is your H who goes along with it and he doesn't have to. At a certain point either the fantasy ends or it isn't a fantasy anymore. What it may be is less stressful and a copout on responsibilities but its definitely not a fantasy. Everyone knows about it and it's real. So I think that Wilbok and Nellie, your H's fall in the cop-out and abandoning responsibilities catagory now. What do you think? <P>Now in my case, he will never go back but I think he did do the real work he had to do. I think while their is no excuse for the affair many who post here would be glad if their spouses did what he and I did. Which was express true remorse for our behavior and to end the affair with no contact. Then he worked on the marriage and he had no idea I would still be available. In fact I made sure he understood that I would be getting on with my life. Now here is what I think did happen. I think the affair exposed a lot of issues and problems that really couldn't be solved even with effort and therapy. Before the affair they were all swept under the rug. They had very bad communication. This was both their faults. I don't think he will ever regret making the decision to divorce but I know he will always regret the affair as will I.<P>Del

What started as "a reward" for H, took over his life. The affair was only part of his problems....the cop out and lack of financial reality and responsibility, the lack of wanting to be a parent for the "daily-grind", etc etc is all part of HIS MLC....not his "fantasy," but very real indeed to him and our children and myself.<P>Ow simply exasberated the problems by clinging to him and is his trophy and when the divorce eventually occurs will be the trophy wife...and who knows for how long. <P>. He has what I believe must be FOR HIM the "perfect life" and he is angry that I have put some legal challenges his way so that the divorce and settlement is not turning out financially the way he believed it would as well as needed it to be for the lifestyle he desires to be workable.<P>This is such a mess. H is a sugar daddy to ow, uncle dad to his 4 kids and a pathetic excuse as a REAL dad, when push comes to shove. One can cop out of the "former life" but the results cannot be controlled by the person who does this. <P>Real life does get in the way of these people's fantasy, ..but I do not think he will ever revert to the flawed, but "sane" person I loved.

Delphi,<P>I find it really hard to believe that problems can be simultaneously ignored for decades yet so severe that no amount of effort can overcome them. At the very least, if that were the case, families, and especially children, WOULD be better off if their parents ignored their problems.<P>Some authors assert that lack of communication is just an excuse. People don't communicate when they don't want to communicate - often because they want to hide either their actions or their feelings. If people really want to communicate, they can. Lack of communication is not necessarily the fault of both marriage partners - I was somehow supposed to know that the times I asked my H what was wrong when he seemed irritable or whatever, and he denied that anything was wrong, I should have been able to tell that he was lying? I should have somehow known when his input to decisions consisted of "I don't know what we should do" that he did in fact have an opinion, and I should have been able to guess what it was? I should have known that he wanted me to go back to work, when he said on several occasions that he didn't like the idea of having the kids in daycare? I should have known that he never got over being angry about anything, and would hold everything I ever did that he didn't like against me for the rest of my life? You can't effectively communicate with someone who goes out of his way to NOT be open. Either that, or these problems were not really major problems until the OW came into the picture and he rewrote the history of our marriage. And there is not necessarily something wrong with the marriage - often their is something wrong with the betrayer - whether it be self-esteem issues, depression or whatever. And if the depressed person exhibits depression in the form of constant irritability and disrespect for their partner, it is unlikely that the partner will constantly respond with unfailing understanding. Often if one person doesn't feel good about himself, no one can change that over the long term.

I think Nellie is right. It is about the betrayer having low self-esteem. Nothing you can say or do will help. They have to figure it out for themselves. Some people do choose to look at their lives and take responsibility. Others prefer to hide their head in the sand and blame their spouse for everything. That is what my H seems to want to do. He tells me OW says he is perfect and loves everything about him. Its fantasy talk. We all can see that but, he doesnt want to see the truth. Nothing in our marriage was so terrible that it couldnt have been worked out until OW came on the scene. It is just easier for him to believe her fantasy than face reality.<BR>I think he will eventually take a very big fall. A lot of these betrayers will. <BR>When I describe what he wants to people they can all see the folly in it. But, to the two in the affair it all makes sense.<BR>Will they ever regret. Probably. But, I think for some it will just be too hard for them to admit they screwed up. They will either go on unhappy with OW or move on to their next big mistake. Unless they deal with the baggage they carry around and accept responsibility for it then they will continue to try and find people that will make them feel good; for as long as it will last. It is a very sad way to live your life.<BR>As lonely and hard as it seems right now, I think it is better to be mentally healthy and alone than in a unhealthy relationship with one of these desperate people.<BR>I hope and pray that my H will choose to face reality and see that I am here to love and support him (for real) than choose his fantasy. I pray that all our spouses wake up before it is too late.<BR>Lisa<P>

I did say that my therapist said that something is wrong with the marriage or with one of the partners, maybe not both the partners. But if you look at it that something is wrong with one of the partners, like they are imature or will not communicate, then something is wrong with the marriage because this person is in the marriage and you are married to him! I do think that not all problems can be worked out. I do think that sometimes people ignore problems and live life on the surface without ever dealing with the real underneath problems and why they are unhappy. I think sometimes a crisis like an affair or even an accident, a death of a loved one, or many other things can sometimes force issues to the surface. Now maybe this is just me because I never had anyone really tell me this as a professional, but I don't think people really change. I think that they are who they are and that maybe sometimes the traits we don't like become more apparant as time goes on. But those traits were always there. They just weren't dominent. What does everyone else thing of this?<P>Del