rs022,<BR>And this is why I've chosen celibacy for life. I've been divorced twice against my will. The only men who would have me now are those you describe (divorced and clueless). IMO, men don't work much on relationships. They are not taught how to, and they are even taught that it is not "manly" to invest alot of thought/time in emotional issues. <P>The good ones wouldn't have me. The good ones have most likely already found some nice young thing in their twenties and they are happily married, or soon to be married. Or they wait till they are half-way to the grave (like Warren Beatty) and pick up a 30 something woman and pop out a bunch of kids. That way, all their relationship failures aren't "official". <P>Keep in mind that only one person has to file for a divorce. The other person can break their back trying to save the marriage, and if the other spouse doesn't want it, then there is nothing they can do. <P>On the other hand, I know plenty of people in their 30's who have never been married. I don't think they are any more qualified to maintain a life-time commitment. Their inability to commit or have relationships that last more than a year or two also say something about their character.

rs0522,<BR> Sorry if I take offense with your post.When I get divorced,I'd hate to think that I'm at the bottom of the marriage-pool barrel.We didn't have any major problems in our 22 year marriage,and I feel like I gave a lot to my W.<BR>But is it my fault she's having some kind of crisis,and is in love with a much younger man who makes her feel like a giddy teenager?A man who opens car doors,brings flowers everyday,kisses her passionately in public places,makes love to her on the hood of a car,and tells her she's the most beautiful woman alive?Was I really suppose to be doing all this even after 20 years of marriage?<BR> That's what really hurts when I feel I gave so much,and she ran off to live in a Harlequin Romance.How was I suppose to compete with a man 15 years younger than me,who's better-looking,healthier,read all the relationship books,and is more sexually experienced?Am I supposed to feel like a failure in marriage because I didn't live up to her standards? Sorry for the vent,your post just rubbed me the wrong way.<BR> Student,Don't be so hard on yourself.You say a good man wouldn't have you.You don't know that.Not all men want a immature twenty-something. --Murph

thanks murphy,<P>I think I'm just responding to the divorce stigma that you were also feeling. Sucks that it takes two people to enter a marriage, and only one to get out. No matter how hard we tried or what we did, the rest of the world still sees me as the big "D". On the other hand, the same applies to my ex's. If I tell people what I did wrong in the marriage, then I look like some kind of pathetic loser. If I tell them what my ex's did wrong, then it looks like I'm blaming them for everything. All I say now is "We had problems, and my ex didn't want to try anymore". That doesn't point the finger at anyone for the problems, but makes real clear that the other person was the initiator of the divorce.

Murph,<P>Just a couple of things regarding this:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is it my fault...A man who opens car doors,brings flowers everyday,kisses her passionately in public places,makes love to her on the hood of a car,and tells her she's the most beautiful woman alive?Was I really<BR>suppose to be doing all this even after 20 years of marriage?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No it isn't your fault... but... I wanted all those things you just listed... and you just learned a lesson about many women who have affairs; they want them too. I can't speak for all women, of course, but when I had my affair (one year ago, seems like a lifetime now) I wanted, and had, all those things. It felt darned good. And, I might add, I wanted them from my H of 19 (at the time) years... but he couldn't give them to me. I told him, I *did* the pursuing (like the hood of the car idea) and he was more embarrassed than excited. Yep, this is pretty valuable information you have here... just a thought.

Sheryl,<BR> Actually,we tried the hood of the car thing years ago.Wasn't really all that comfortable!<BR> --Murph

Ah Murph,<P>Comfort is a relative term in this regard... it wasn't comfort I was after, it was EXCITEMENT... and it certainly was exciting! <P>I was serious when I wrote that you now have some inside info... you may not think that flowers, fun & different sex, and telling a woman she is the most beautiful person on the planet is necessary after 20 years, but for some of us (me included) it IS!!<P>Hide this information in your hat and remember it... it's ALWAYS important!

Murph,<P>I have to agree with Sheryl on this as this what my x's chief complaint about me was. I didn't know how to love her how she she wanted to be loved.<P>I have to admit she made it hard for me to love her so I'm not totally at fault here as it does take two.<P>Bob

I hope I am not being too offensive. <P>I guess the shortest way of putting it is that the only thing you are sure about in a divorce support group is that the marriage failure rate for the men involved is 100%.<P>Although I think The Student has a valid point about unmarried men after a certain age. The inability to commit can be just as much a red flag as the failure to keep commitments. <P>I hope I don't come across as pointing fingers. But I still think divorces happen for a reason. The reason may be no more than being a poor judge of men, but I believe it is often more than that. This is probably why second marriages fail at an even higher rate than first ones. You have already separated out the ones who can/will stick together thru thick and thin, till death do us part. <P>Damn, this is a depressing thread! <P>I still don't think a divorce support group is a good place to meet men.<P>Regards,<BR>rs0522

Yes, there are honorable men out there. Not as many as there once were but we are still here. It's just hard to see us through all the scars.

TheStudent,<P>I think that you are right that most men wouldn't put much time or effort into working on a relationship. I think the vast majority would prefer to run away. I think the vast majority of men would rather die than let their wives have a clue about what they were feeling. I don't believe that most men really want to be close to anybody. And they can go through their entire lives that way, and they never have to suffer - only their wives and kids do.

To Everyone:<P>When I posted this......I never thought that it would keep going!.......I was just venting<P>I do believe that their are "good guys" out there! The romantic side of me at least wants to believe!(or I think that most of them are married and trying desperatly to have a happy marriage!)Unfortunatly their W can't see what they have.......it is a shame.<P>But that for me.....is not really the issue now!.....I am still married and would like nothing more than to stay that way.MY H has some issues that he is dealing w/and thinks that he has to do this not living w/us.<P>He did ask me out for dinner tommorrow night!<BR>So I supose that is a step in the right direction!.......I was begning to feel that he didn't care to see me!........so I can only hope that he is begning to see the light.<P>When or even if I ever have to deal w/the "single seen".....I will be much more older and wiser,and hope that God will bring someone in my life that will not only give all their love to me but then I will have the chance to give all of the love that I have back. <P>I wish all of you the best.....and I will keep you posted!<P>Gina <P>

Gina:<BR> Hope ya'll have a great dinner! You are still in my thoughts--<P>Kathi

Hey Kathi,<P>Thanks,what is up w/you?<BR>Gina<BR>

I do not know if this is an appropriate spot to enter for my first post or response to a topic. I have not yet given up. I am one who has taken the celibacy oath. Not just to remain faithful to my wife, but to help me. I have no desire to get hurt or to hurt and feel that to expose my emotions to someone who may herself still be hurting will not let me get over the anger. Someone said that the sex is just the icing for the cake. I liked that. It seems that some men or women take liberties with seperated or divorced persons because we could be vulnerable, not expecting a long term relationship. I believe that my W was seduced before she left by such a person who she described as just a friend. <BR> As the one who was left, I have not had any interest to use my situation as an excuse to cheat. I even have difficulty with entertaining the idea of flirting. <BR>I am just trying to try to weather this out, though I feel abandoned. Not just by her. So I hesitate to be around anyone I do not know that I can trust. <BR> I know I cannot blame others for our lack of communication (my view of our main problem). I fear that I need to overcome this or I may vent on an innocent. <BR>My MIL has been a great listener throughout this time. She offers no solutions, does not get involved, but has been the best friend. I just told her so before I logged on. She told me a few months ago that I should get a girlfriend. <BR>I knew I would ramble...just a bit nervouse about ny first response or post.

Welcome <B>rrunrr</B>...<P>I responded to your other post first...<BR>...but as the normal welcome wagon...<BR>I have a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000002.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><P>A while ago... the "main" forum was divided into 4 separate "sub" forums... and a new one added...<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Just+found+out...&number=29&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>Just found out...</A>...for those new the forum... pre/post "discovery" of an affair or possible affair.<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Plan+A/Plan+B&number=30&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>Plan A/Plan B</A>...usually after "discovery of the affair"...for those with questions of "what to do now?"<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=In+recovery&number=31&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>In recovery</A>...when a commitment to work on marriage by both spouses has begun.<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=34&SUBMIT=Go" TARGET=_blank>Divorcing/Divorced</A>...when efforts at reconciliation fail or are failing.<BR>We are being asked to post the forums that make the most sense with respect to our questions/vents and not just dump everything into the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=General+Questions&number=28&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>General Questions</A> forum because it will give you the most responses! <P>Jim