Mark---I feel that I can address the depression issue.<br>My doctor recommended Prozac a full year before I consented to take it. I wanted to work it out myself. I thought I should be able to handle my emotions etc. Finally the next year I went back and said I hadn't been able to overcome it. I took the drug reluctlantly (and my husband was also harsh about me "needing" a drug), but with in a few weeks started to feel like MYSELF again. Unfortunatley I felt so good that I didn't think I need to keep taking it. But then the depression set in again. I finally after maybe 10 mo-year started taking it again. I think it has been about 3 months, and once again I feel better. My dr. was very generous with the samples so this last month was the first I purchased and retail cost would have been $43. With my husband's insurance it brought the cost down to under $25. (that's for a month's worth) I decided that even thought I'd rather not spend the $$, that it is a small price to pay for the ahppiness. My husband has even remarked that I'd better keep taking it. (and he used to think that 'depression" was a cop out disease.) I guess what I am saying is that I really DID NOT want to take the drug. I was worried what it said about me and my ability to cope etc. But I realize now that I need it, and it is just taking me back to MYSELF, not making me a whole new person. Good luck. I'd be more than happy to answer any of your wives questions about depression. Good luck

Mark, I talked with my husband again today about him going to those porno sites all the time I dont like it either and we have a great sex life. All i get from him is its better for a man to go to porno sites a look at nude women than to actually go out and cheat! Well he got me there but I still think it is wrong men dont understnad how it effects ther wives about their bodies or their confidence in themselves. I know I feel like IM not good enough for my husband when he goes to them I fell ike if he truelly loved me he would concertrate on me and my body not someon elses. And I cant even stand the thought of him touching me after he he has been to one of those sites. Look at it from her point of viewe would you ike it if she went and looked at other men? I know my husband says it wouldnt bother him but I know it would. Just as it bothers me because it makes me real self councious about my body and what we have together.

Wow!!!!! I never expected so many responses or so many opinions when I first posted this. I really thought in the beginning that maybe something was wrong with ME!!! I have to honestly say to all of the women out there whose husbands are doing this same thing, "THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU." <br>Melissa: Yes, it's true. Men naturally want to look at women. It's in them. It's part of being male. I have been doing much reading and some research lately on men and sexuality in the library at the college I attend. I am actually quite surprised. Our culture does confine them. But I believe it should be that way to a certain extent. Otherwise, they would all act like wild animals! The point I am trying to make is: While it may be okay to look at other women, it is NOT okay to hurt your spouse's feelings. If your spouse indicates that it hurts, then it should stop because when you are in a marriage, and you supposedly love someone, you don't WANT to hurt them! So what does a man do? Wow, if I were a man, and I truly had urges to look, I would do it in a way that did not hurt my spouse! I have asked my husband many, many times if he is satisfied with me. He tells me he does. I believe him now. I DO dress sexy for him (at least I try). I feel ridiculous at times because I look NOTHING like the women he focuses his attention on!!!! I am very petite and do not have breasts the size of Kansas! By the way, I have spoken to a psychologist. It is not "normal" for a man to disrespect his wife and it is not "normal" for a wife to disrespect her husband. <p>So to sum all of this up. We all need to learn to except each other the way we are. I disagree Melissa that a person should try to be something they are not to please their spouse. That is dishonesty. I'm not saying one should not try to please his or her spouse, I am saying that if one is able to be him/herself, and be accepted, then perhaps much of the frustration would cease because we would stop from trying to "CHANGE" THE OTHER PERSON. <p>Thank you all for your comments. I have gained great insight. I truly feel now that I understand. I don't like it. But I understand.<p>Peace<p>KS

To Mark and His Wife(if you read this),<br>Mark, I originally came to this topic to ask a question. However after reading your posts I had to repond. Your wife reminds me of myself in many ways. I have improved but I used to also tell my husband to "just go out and find a woman who will fulfill your needs". It would've hurt me tremendously if he had but I got tired of him threatening to do it and I got tired of feeling pushed into having sex. Our needs differed greatly and probably never will be the same. Now we have other issues but I want to try to help you understand why a woman MAY be feeling the way your wife does. I had a sexual incident happen when I was about 6 by a cousin of mine. I also was "taken advantage of" one night when I was 17. While I was growing up my mother told me that sex was a dirty thing. When any of this happens you feel confused once you experience sexual pleasure. Conflicting feelings are constantly there. You're thinking: It feels good but it's supposed to be bad and my husband is molesting me but the physical feelings I'm having feel the same as when I was. Therefore you fluctuate between: I shouldn't do it,it's wrong and I want to read about(or see in her case) other people having sex so that I know it's NORMAL. My sexuality is the most vulnerable part of me because of what I've experienced. When my husband pushed me for sex I felt overwhelmed. As hard as it is you must stop pushing. Is it possible to go back to courting? I know it sounds strange since you're married but if you tell her that you want to court her and have no sexual contact she will feel that it is safe to move towards a sexual relationship again. She needs to know that she can trust you. I had in my mind for a long time that men only wanted on thing and that was to use women. I hated the sexual organ of every man because of what happened to me. It takes time and patience to learn that your husband doesn't have the same intentions. I say all of this assuming that she has been sexually abused. As a mom I could understand if this is about a sick child. When your child is sick the rest of the world doesn't matter. As far as your wife not feeling that the counselor was the right one...he wasn't. You both have to feel comfortable with a counselor for it to do any good. He or she must listen carefully, be supportive, and willing to help both of you. I know what it's like to get the wrong counselor but I also know what it's like to get the right one. Once you find him/her you won't be sorry. I hope this has helped you in some way. Please, whatever you do, DON'T break your marriage vows. You sound strong at times but I can hear some weakness in there too. I know it has to be extremely tough for you. Keep posting and lean on all of the others here. Take care! :-)

Has anyone noticed the pattern on this forum.<br>If you can find me a thread where it doesn't say "I think you should try counseling" I'll give you a dollar. Bruce, you made an observation of this a few posts back when you said that people are going to counselors for things that not long ago they would work through themselves. It is sad really. But what I find interesting is that most posts that recommend counseling make it sound like a profoundly original idea. Please dont misunderstand, I too have been there and benefited, I just want to take a step back from all of this and wonder where we are headed as a society.<br>Also, way back in this thread, and relevant to this thread were comments from someone who was discussing the fact that the husband and <br>wife need to really communicate their needs in an unapologetic way. I just read a survey that said that 85% of men who participated in this survey (these are all men who had divorced due to their own sexual adultry) said that the reason they strayed was lack of having the sexual needs met. This survey was presented in some church literature and certainly was not in favor of adultry. It offred no excuse but did offer the reason. The pastor used it in a series on marriage. In the sermon he was quick to add all of the disclaimers about unreasonable expectations by husbands etc. In the same information, the women in the same situation cited 65% affection as their reason. Incidentally, the number two reason for men was "a controlling wife" and the number two reason for women was sex. If sex is the number one reason for men, and the number two reason for women, obviously it needs dealing with, as does the affection issue. It seems in this and other threads where men complain about lack of sex the advise is to back off, dont expect too much, court her, tender, affection, etc. Yet when the women complain about lack of sex the advise is, does he have a medical problem?, try to seduce him, talk directly about it, anyone see the double standard. Does anyone see the reason men are going to porn sites etc. clearly. I do not advocate the porn sites, I am simply saying that the the reasons are very very clear, not excuses, reasons. Some of these men would have strayed no matter what, some of these men would go to porn sites no matter what, but to me it is obvious that a great number could be prevented if men and women could get together on sex and affection, treating both needs as equal, not looking at one as a means to the other, not viewing one need as different to the other.<br>Please read my post carefully as I have seen other threads here regarding much these same things. <br>I do not condone adultry<br>I do not condone porn sites<br>Husbands,meet the wifes need for affection unconditionally<br>Wives,meet the husbands need for sex unconditionally (you know what I mean here)<p>Lastly, find me a thread where medication for depression is not mentioned and I'll give you another dollar. What did we do without the medication and therapy, the divorce rate is increasing even with these trendy magic bullets. I do not dispute the positive results of the meds, I am merely suggesting that our society is becoming one where a therapist, medication, three televisions, a country club membership, and a third car are all equal status symbols.

Lost, maybe you could share with us the miracle that makes men and women communicate? Sometimes counseling is the only thing that can help them do it. Having an objective third party to mediate can help. People have been having trouble communicating since the beginning of time. The difference today is that it isn't hidden in the closet anymore. Men's and women's roles in marriage are changing.<p>You've made a lot of generalizations in your post about sexual needs, counseling and anti-depressants. When a man demands sex once a day and a woman doesn't want it but more than a couple of times a week, I believe that the man might want to back off a little. The women who are complaining about a lack of sex are talking about husbands who haven't touched them in a month or more! That's a little bit different, and does require different advice. If a woman expects affection 24 hours a day, that may be unrealistic, but it isn't unrealistic to expect it relatively consistently and often. Certainly it isn't unrealistic to expect it in relation to sexual activity!<p>And finally, anti-depressants... you've not experienced clinical depression, I can tell that. Clinical depression can kick in as a result of an emotional upheaval such as the discovery of infidelity in your marriage. It can start on it's own and create all kinds of relationship difficulties. Dysthymia, a "lower-grade" form of clinical depression, generally goes undiagnosed and is devastating to the lives of those forced to endure it. Family and friends often see you as hostile and negative, needy and insecure. It drives couples apart as the depressed one may not be motivated to meet the other's needs, or else may search in vain for fulfillment outside of the marriage.<p>The difference in how I felt before taking and since taking antidepressants is difficult to explain. The best description I've come up with is the one I wrote in my "Letter to My Husband": It was like wearing dark gray, kinda dirty sunglasses ... I could see things, not necessarily clearly, and the colors were dull and lifeless - not exciting at all. Then, it became like someone tore the sunglasses off my face and then the sun came out! The colors were bright and life became brilliant once again. I want to learn and do new things, I'm not afraid to go places and do things anymore. I'm more motivated than I've probably ever been ... All because of antidepressants.<p>I'm not saying they are for everyone, what I'm saying is that our society has created tools to help us deal with emotional disorders that people commit suicide because of. That's not a bad thing at all - it's a great thing...<p>terri

Lost, you have brought up a lot of things I would like to address, but I need to think about them. But one thing I wanted ot point out is that for awhile now i"ve been saying that almost EVERYBODY woould benefit from therapy. YES, why do we have classes in everything else, but how to live our lives happliy? I know that parents are supposed to teach us this, but obviously we can't teach what we don't know. You sound like my husband, especially when it comes to that (therapy) and the meds. He made me feel horrible for taking them in the beginning, but after they really did help he doesn't want me off of them. I'm not proud that I'm taking them, but I am extremely grateful.

I'm really sorry if you thought I was somehow saying that counseling and medication are bad things. You missed my point entirely, as I said I have bben in counseling and benefited greatly from it. In fact I tend to agree with the last post that everyone could use some form or level of therapy. As for the meds, I also agree and think it is great the positive progress people are making with them. My point was to take a look at our society and how it is pushing and pulling us in ways that tend to make these things more necessary. I know this sounds very cliche but I just wanted to vent about a society that should be the most "comfortable" one in the world yet has the most people in therapy and on meds. Compared to almost all of the rest of the world (population wise) we have nothing to complain about, yet look at us, spending time here on this board, in therapy, on meds etc.<br>Does that make sense? As for the sex thing, I was bringing in the original topic of this thread. First, it is in your opinion that the man wanting 1 per day and the woman wanting 3 per week vs. the woman not getting for a month is so different. You see, this is very subjective, you say 1 month is unreasonable but 3 per week is reasonable, that is you. Just like you cannot convince someone they like spinach if they hate it, you cannot change the validity of the needs, no matter your opinion of the timing. As for the porn etc. what I am saying is that if the couple cannot reach a reasonable (subjective) compromise on the need for sex it can cause great temptation for the man (or the woman)<br>The man then goes to porn and self gratification thinking it is a harmless way for him to keep is need at the dull ache level rather than a raging demand. In the end he is wrong, he should not go there, but at the same time, and yes even if it is in therapy or with meds, the two need to come together on this issue and recognize it as one of the needs in the marriage. You nor I can put our subjective opinion on it for every couple. If the man wants every day and she wants 3 per week you say back off, if the man wants 3 per week and she wants 1 per week, is it still back off or is this reasonable? Do you see the pitfall? Who is to validate the need of someone? If we could solve this problem we would really be getting somewhere.

Ok, the last couple of posts has touched on reasonable sex. <br>I want to throw this out and ask if anyone thinks I am being unreasonable.<br>I want sex with my wife around 3-4 times a week. I want the sex to last a while inculding lots of foreplay and be VERY enjoyable for both of us. I want sponteniety in sex, for instance, if I am sitting on my computer and my wife for no reason at all, comes up behined be wearing something sexy (or nothing at all) and "jumps" me right then and there.<br>I don't want it constanlty, those of you that have experienced constant every day sex will relate when i say that it can get very draining and even somewhat boring, even sometimes physically painfull.<p>My wife on the other hand will only have sex on the weekend, at night right before she goes to bed, and then we usually spend way too much time deciding on who is going to be on top!<p>It is always the same, I cannot spend the time on her that I want to. When I try to, I am VERY firmly told not to, and to hurry up because she is tired. Sometimes she will let me "indulge" her and then maybe later in the month she will reciprocate. <br>If i ask for sex during the week then the reply I get is "Wait a few days, it is almost the weekend".<br>we will only have sex once a week, if we have an arguement close to the weekend or on the planned day then sex will not happen. Sometimes she will come into the room and say "Are we going to do this or not?"<br>I don't feel like making love to my wife then so sometimes I say not.<br>When that happens, and it happens almost every weekend. Sex will be reduced to 2-3 times a month. Sometimes we have gone a couple of months with no intimate contact at all.<p>Is the 3-4 times a week too much to ask? or should I just shut up and be content with the sex on her terms?<p>

Mark:<p>Personally, I do not think your request is too much. I'm the one who started this thread with wondering what was wrong with me because my husband indulges in pornography. If my husband wanted me 3 or 4 times a week, I would be happy. Do you want her that often because of her or because you need to release? In other words, is it a passion for her or is it just a release for you? She very well could be tired. I understand your view that you would like spontaneous, exciting, passionate sex! However, life is not like the movies or what you may see in magazines. I know my husband would like the same thing . . . for me to show up in some slinky nightie. And when he requests such, I automatically think it is because he is comparing me, or wanting me to look like the unrealistic women in the magazines he browses through! Reality is that I work full-time, go to school and raise two children. I'm TIRED!!! Your wife may very well be TIRED. Have you tried compromising with her? Maybe you can request it less, and she can make it more exciting (quality). I'm telling you from a woman's perspective (ok, maybe just my perspective) that I feel ridiculous in slinky nighties because I am insecure about my body. Why? Because my husband looks at porno (an unrealistic view of women). Does this make sense? Maybe your wife is depressed, or insecure . . . Everyone is different. Just because you want it 3 or 4 times and she doesn't, doesn't necessarily mean there is anything wrong with you or HER! You both have different needs. Read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS! Good luck. I truly hope you two can work things out. Remember those vows, for richer or poorer, in bad times and in good, in sickness and in health . . . etc . . etc. .. . <p>KS

Ok--I can't remember all I want to say..but here goes.<br>Lost, Ok sorry if it also sounded like I took offense. I do get a bit defnesive about the meds..mostly cause my H made me feel bad in the beginning for taking them. Now the sex issue. I think whenever there is a discrepency then it should be addressed. I read the Mars/Venus book on it. It brings up the point of women "allowing" quickie" sex for the sake of the husband. I'm all for that. If my husband initiates sex it is when I am almost asleep and not at all in the mood. So I tell him we can just "do it". If he doesn't expect anything from me. (what bothers me tho is that he gets to thinking that that's all we ever need to do--unless I initiate) So I don't think any reasonable person would say that the woman holds the power of frequency. <br>Hmmm, what else was I going to say???? Maybe this was it...my big gripe with porn is that my husband never made me feel very desirable or showed passion toward or for or during lovemaking. I couldn't tell if he liked my body, he never showed any appreciation of beautiful lingerie. He never lets me know that he'd like to later make love. All these things made me feel sad, but I was able to cope thinking that he just wasn't a sexual person. But then when I found out that he viewed porn it really hurt my feelings. I didn't understand why he'd have desire to look at other women and not me. (I have had boyfriends who were great lovers and very appreciative and also interested in porn, and it didn't make me feel bad). I really questioned my own desirability and thought my body wasn't worthy etc. (Now---that I'm 30plus pounds heavier--- he talks about how great my body used to be---go figure!!) Sorry for all the rambling, this is just my situation, maybe it will make some sense to someone.

KS, While yes I do like to have sex just as a release (as my wife often does too) for the most part it is passion. If you read my (VERY lengthy) post under : other topics, "Is it ok for him to have lunch with another woman", Paragraph 6 (i told you it was a long post ) then you will understand the "types" of sex we enjoy.<br>There are plenty of times when we just want to have the release but in all honesty, I really do enjoy pleasing my wife.<p>My Wife has the most amazing body I have ever seen, Yes the models on movies and magazines do have that so called "perfect" body but they really dont turn me on. I understand that it is almost impossible for most women to achieve that kind of physique so i don't expect it.<p>About my watching porn and her reaction. She tells me that she doesnt mind me watching those things sometimes, just not for me to expect her to look like those women. <br>Women like Cindy crawford and Pamela anderson actually kind of gross me out. I find their whole bodies and general looks a complete turn off. I just enjoy seeing WHATmany of these women are doing in the movies. (I think I am alone here in the male community).<br>Like I said, my wife has an amazing body, despite the fact she has had 2 children, her measurements are 36/29/36.<br>Many of you would say that her hips are a little wide, I guess so but they are mostly bone and almost no fat whatsoever! Like I said, she did have 2 children! (besides, I like her hips the way they are thankyou very much )<br>I often comlpiment her on her looks because I think she deserves it. She goes to the gym often to maintain her physique (although I tell her it isn't necessary). She is only now coming around to accepting my complements. She used to think I was just saying those things to get something out of her. <p>I have to go back to work soon so WOW, this is actually a short post <br>Love it up while you can, I don't do this very often <p>I am going to start a new topic about setting the record straight, I hope you all read it and give me some feedback.<br>Mark.<p>[This message has been edited by Mark (edited 11-23-98).]