Sue,<P>the little i know of you, you read as well grounded, level headed, and concerned. I appreciated the last comment as I have tried and although I have not spent the money, I would be willing to if STBX would be willing to go and try.<P>The answers are hard, and life is not always easy. I appreciate your determination, and seeing you are a business woman, find you pretty tough to fire your husband. That must be the biggest chip on his shoulder.<P>I read the Guy E comment went a little farther than I expected! seesh, no one misses anything around here.<P>Anyway, i just wanted to say thanks and I agree with you about your position about the next sexual encounter.<P>thl

I wish I had a faster computer, its taken me along time to get through most of these posts, but my goodness! worth the wait. <P>To The Student, you are an engineer! you cut to the quick. ANd I have to ask, why is being judgemental a bad thing? Everyone is. If everyone were more judgemental of behavior, heck, these boards wouldn't be needed. Certainly there is no person here who believes infidelity is ever justified. There is no grey area there.<P>And you can bet I didn't understand this before I had children, but now, after seeing what my kids have gone through, I would NEVER get involved with a man who could walk away from a family - its a character issue - now that is not to be misinterpreted as a man who is divorced. There are valid reasons to divorce, just as there are valid reasons to reconcile. <P>Casual sex hurts everyone, and it is a real shame it has become a part of dating. I saw one episode of that sex in the city show, with these young career women, talking like guys in a locker room. Who are they kidding? Does anyone believe any woman who has anything on the ball acts like that? Why are they trying to portray that as normal? that it is glamorous or desirable? How can anything like Jerry Springer or Jenny Jones be viewed as entertainment, or God forbid, "average people" I am just mortified and embarrassed for those horrid people.<P>And when people refer to "sluts." Geez, I feel sorry for them. THey have been judged - and are still victimized by a wicked double standard that will always exist. "Nice girls don't have casual sex, but sluts do." Most of these poor pathetic women are using sex as a substitute for love.<P>And when women after a divorce, "nice girls", are feeling at their most vulnerable, when their self-esteem has been shattered - to think that they missed something, that a one night stand will feel good ... They will feel as awful the next day, as the teenage or college girl discovering that it really does matter - that it hurts when the boy doesn't call.<P>Dating is fun. I am enjoying it immensely, I am back going out to dinners, and plays, and being wined and dined. I am pursued as a sexy and desirable woman. But I know for a fact, part of my appeal is that I am viewed as a prize. I finally understand that no matter how many people try to deny it - men and women are different. Sex without commitment is never good, never healthy.<P>

honey.west,<BR>I just got done talking with my 24 yr. old roomate. She is a virgin, and wants to wait until a commitment before having sex. She has been dating (and doing some "messing around") and is getting lots of messages from her friends to just do it, and get it over with.<P>As a woman who did just that, I told her "Your friends have never been committed, never felt the intimacy and security of a truly loving relationship. They have no idea how much better sex will be when that happens. Almost very woman I have talked who has done what they are suggesting, including myself, now wishes they would have waited at least until they were in a long-term love relationship." <P>She was almost in tears this morning because she told this guy she was dating that she couldn't have sex with him without commitment, and his reaction was pretty dead-pan at best. I just told her that it was very good she had that discussion, because now she knows that their values are not in sync. <P>You are absolutely right that women who get called sluts are victims of a double standard, and that they are using sex as a replacement for love. Problem is, the men are too. For some reason, it is ok for sex to be the primary expression of intimacy for a man. I firmly believe that one of the reasons why things are the way they are is because men are not taught and are not encouraged to express themselves in any other way than:<BR> <BR>a) anger and violence<BR>b) sex<P>Therefore, their communication skills totally suck because they haven't developed any range of OTHER behaviors or emotions. <P>I do want to clear up one more thing as far as men who initiate a divorce... I also did say that if they did initiate a divorce, that they had better prove to me that they "dragged their naked bodies over broken glass to save their marriage". For instance, if Chris123 decides to file this December (which was/is his personal deadline for his wife to "wake up") then I will totally believe he is justified. He has thoroughly towed the line, IMO. Same thing with K. Noone has to agree with me. I just have been married to two men who were so completely lazy when it came to work on the relationship. Neither of them seemed to have a problem swapping wives when things got too tough.<P>I DON'T think my ex towed the line at all. I think his brother copped out of his marriage too, even worse than my ex. <P>My dad gave me some good advice when I was young..."Make a decision to either be single or be married. If you decide to be married, then just count on the fact that there will be problems, there will be things you don't like, and things you can't change about the other person. Also know that this will be true for ANY person you are with, so if you want to be married, you are better off just sticking it out rather than start from scratch with every other person." <P>RIGHT ON, Dad! Married once (at 21) and still going strong after almost 37 years.

Hi,<P>Just wanted to check real quick this a.m., to see if I generated any "hate" mail, glad it didn't. <P>I think I understood what you said about getting involved with divorced men, but I sensed others didn't - and we totally agree - a man who could casually toss aside a marriage is not on my list of eligibles. <P>Glad to see one girl isn't going to get hurt, you were a very good friend to her. <P>I came to age in the 70s and was bombarded with the "if it feels good, do it" message. Hard not to get caught up in it, I fell victim to some of it, but was not overwhelmed by it. I had one of the single lives that made most women envious. But I never experienced the pure joy of sex until I was married - until I had that commitment - there is a bond that creates "one flesh." <P>ANd that is what I want again. It was fabulous being single - right now I have that again - kind of funny, some things never change - men still act pretty goofy around me, they are just older now.<P>But I was happiest married, with my family. I am very lucky to be so sure of what I want - I know I will find it, I know there are men who want the same things. But I have my eyes wide open this time - and know there are alot of men who don't, and I won't waste my time with them. <P>You are a very good and strong person to have on this board.

Hey Student,<BR> <BR> Your Dad is a very smart man!<P> --Murph

I have not really lurked on this post as I have not dated...and I have been separated since March 1999.<BR>What works for each individual is that it should be well thought out and make sense, without any regrets as to the decision. i.e. if you can look at yourself in the mirror and be proud of who you are then whatever is right, is right....and that includes making mistakes, acknowledging and learning from them.<BR>I have chosen not to date...not much of a choice really as I am pretty isloated in terms of going out there to look...plus I would not remember how.<BR>But for me this is a moot point as when I think about it, and it would be nice in theory, I am not ready as<BR>A)I am not divorced<BR>B)My children are teenagers and are VERY confused about their parents...so nothing would be brought into my home...discussions about this, my whereabouts if I went on a date etc<BR>C)Mst important...I am not ready as (I have been so hurt. I do not trust many people and do not tolerate the lies and plastic aura of so many...call it as you see it and I can deal with most things. I guess I do not have the patience, inclination or wherewithal to play games at this point in my life.<P>Once divorced and when my children are more secure in their understanding of life and relationships I will persue this a little more ...and yes I would dearly love to have someone oneday to care for and care for me...but I would NEVER marry again

TS,<BR>I think I agree with mostly what you say in regards to waiting, but because of my divorce I am confused.<P>I was not very experienced prior to my marriage, a girl friend and a few one night stands. With my x's affair, she turned what I thought was a special emotional exchange between us into nothing but a physical release. Her comments to me, such as, after a few drinks she could have sex with anyone (which she said in front of the counselor), and yelling during a heated argument, at her place of work, that I was lousy in bed, have left me kind of jaded. <P>I know a lot of that was out of anger/desire to end the marriage on her part, but it still has me confused. I guess it all comes down to trust. Do I hold out till I find somebody and get married and then work so that marriage succeeds, trusting that it will. Or do I just go with the flow ?<P>One area I do disagree with you on is the area of communication. I don't believe you can teach someone how to communicate. Why are most men so "bad" at communicating? Isn't it how we are wired ? I think if you ask any of the other guys here on the forum, you will find that they don't think their spouses/x's communicated very well either.<P>In regards to men who don't "fight" for their marriage, I think again you are going against human nature. I read/heard somwhere that when it comes to an affair, women do forgive their betraying husbands far more than men forgive their betraying wives and thus seek a divorce more quickly than women.<P>That might be why there are far more women on this forum than men. It is interesting in my divorce recovery workshop it looks about 70% women and 30% men in attendance. I don't know all their stories as to who was the betrayed or the betrayer.<P>I look forward to your reply.<P>Bob

RWD,<BR>Hmm. Some good questions...<P>Both men and women are guilty of not communicating well. However, I think more women make the attempt and actually see the experience of talking about the relationship as a positive thing. Men (in general) tend to think that if you have to talk about it, there must be "something wrong". Harley talks about this in "why women leave men". <P>Even if a majority of divorced men didn't "fight" for their marriage, I would still hold out for one who did, even if that means spending the rest of my life alone. <P>I don't think it is in the way men are wired. I think that men are given a very short menu of "acceptable" emotions they are allowed to express and be considered "manly", unfortunately. Infidelity cuts to the core of any man or woman, but I think women generally have more resources to deal with their feelings than men. A few guys I've talked to have a very hard time apologizing, for instance. Even when they know they are wrong, apologizing is seen as "weak". So you see what I mean? Men, to their detriment, have to maintain this image of being strong and in control all of the time. When they are hurt, it comes out as anger most of the time. Kick the *itch out, kind of thing. Very few men can admit feeling hurt or scared. On another thread, a man said something like "my whole future rests on what is happening in my marriage, but when I go to work, all I can talk about is sports". He comes here because it is a safe place to talk about his feelings. It is sad that men don't have more outlets to talk about their feelings.<P>But I'll tell you, I think women contribute to this attitude as well. My roommate says she is only attracted to men who are smarter, stronger, older, etc. than her. We had a long talk about it one weekend. I told her that it is a pretty tough row to hoe for a guy to be "strong" and have to be "up" all the time. <P>A side note...I volunteered at a soup kitchen Saturday morning. 400-500 people filtered through that morning. I saw maybe 5-10 women there. Half of those were there with their children. Something is SERIOUSLY wrong with our society when so many men are homeless, or drug and alcohol addicted compared to women. Also, why the vast majority of people in our prisons and on death row are men. If it were only biology, I'd be inclined to just give up. However, I don't think it is just a man's biology. I also think it has to do with the way men are raised.<P>I wanted to share that with you because, although I *itch alot about men, I am making an effort to do something about it in the big scheme of things.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited June 25, 2000).]

I wish my wife had a dad like yours<P>thl

whenifindthetime,<P>I wish my ex-husband(s) had a dad like mine too. My second H's dad used to tell him "Obtain wealth, then virtue". My first H's dad split on his mom. His dad didn't try to reestablish contact until he was an adult. <P>Honey.west,<BR>I talked to my roommate again tonight, and we talked in detail about what her boyfriend said. When she told him she couldn't have sex with him without a commitment, and that she was afraid she had gone "too far" with him already, his reply was "you should get out of the shallow end (of the pool)". Hah! I had to laugh! I just told her that what he said was very disrespectful, and that he was acting like a spoiled little child who just had his ice-cream cone taken away. <P>She has been "dating" this guy for only about three weeks. What the h@ll! She shouldn't even need to be having this discussion. Oh well. She told me that when she leaves, she's going to keep my email for more "big sister" advice. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited June 25, 2000).]

THe Student,<P>The older I get, the more stock I put into biological differences, I used to think environment had alot more to do with it than it does - I knew for sure when I gave my little toddler and baby boys these cute little beanie baby dolls and the two of them made sputter noises and pretended they were cars.<P>I never would have believed the change in me with motherhood either. I was a career woman, I guess you could say, and had all these grandiose visions of another "falsehood" of the seventies, and that is that you could have it all - career, marriage, family - there isn't enough time in the day to do all three well. The good news for me, was I didn't want it all anymore. A career became very unimportant to me when I held that first baby in my arms. Those mars and venus books could certainly be condensed to a thin chapter, but had some enlightening points.<P>Differences are not just in communication, but almost everything. Each sex complements the other and makes a great team. Aren't I the optimistic one?<P>I certainly can never say I'm glad I went through what I did, you don't have to get hit by a train to know it hurts, and this sounds so ridiculously trite, but I really am a better person now. Enough time has passed for me that I am no longer bitter - I know I am a much more compassionate person to human weakness, much more forgiving, but also much more egads, the bad word, judgemental of bad behavior. And I go to the gym regularly now.<P>I joked to my parents that it was all their fault - they had a great marriage, and I just took it for granted that everybody does. Lloyd Bridges when asked the reason for the longevity of his marriage replied "married the right woman." <P>So, I am just waiting to find a guy like a fe I've seen here, who will be as appreciate of me as I am of him. <P>

TS, <BR>In regards to the men in the soup kitchen and treatment centers. Again I believe its human nature, aren't men more likely to be involved in risky behavior such as taking drugs and consuming alcohol in vast amounts and smoking?<P>I guess society is teaching woman to catch up as evidenced by growing number of women addicted to drugs and alcohol and the growing number of woman suffering from cancers associated with smoking.<P>I also agree with you about woman helping those sterotypes along. I was talking to my son's friend's mother. She and her h have a strange relationship. Basically she is staying with him for the children. She has acknowledged several affairs on both their parts. She is basically staying with her h because of the life style he affords her.<P>Anyway she was talking about some of the men she knew, and kept refering to them by how they were built and how much money they had. She indicated that she didn't want to take a step down in her style of living for any particular man.<P>In looking at human nature, men are naturally the aggressive sex. I seen lots of mothers saying their children/boys can't have toy guns. But most boys can make a gun out of everything. I think there was a study too that boys and girls were put into a room with some toys that were non-gender relating and the kids ended up using them in traditional gender ways.<P>I think the test was designed to see if kids were being taught agressiveness, whether it was nature, not nurture. It was found to be nature.<P>I guess I am a pretty typical male in that I'm protective of my emotions and that I'm afraid of emotions in general. I learned of this through my counseling. I see that I am probably starting out on the wrong foot with the current woman I am dating as I am trying not to "like" her "too" much. Pretty weird !<BR>Maybe I have begun dating to soon. But I think this may be my nature. My parents weren't very emotional either.<P>Boy this thread has taken a weird path, from dating to sex to human nature!

Hi all,<P>Well, I'm not proposing that men turn into women and women turn into men. Even though I agree that some of all this IS biology (i.e. giving males or females additional testosterone tends to increase aggressivness, for instance), I tend to also believe that biology is a cop out. Women have entered a man's world by working and succeeding in many fields of occupation. Men could stand to "cross over" and work on their nurturing and childcare skills for a change. <P>Men get to "have it all", career, family, marriage. The only reason why it is so hard for women to have all of those things is because men won't do their share in the family/marriage responsibilities. Women who do work outside the home are still expected to do the majority of household and childcare work, and it sucks. If that is the case, then it is easier for me to have children without a man in my life, because he is just extra work, IMO. <P>This is another reason why dating/marriage is so unappealing. If this is the "way men are", then I'm not interested. Aggressive, unemotional, uncommunicative. Sounds like more work for me and I'm tired of it. What is the woman's "job"? To be nurturing, caring, sweet, listen to his problems, support his goals. When is it my turn? huh? If this is something I can only expect other women to do for me, then what is the point of dating/marriage? <P>Maybe I shouldn't be so harsh with men who want to date right away. They are getting something from women that they can't get elsewhere (besides sex). I really don't see what women get out of a relationship with a man (besides sex) unless they need financial support, which I don't. <P>In one of those mars/venus books, the author warns that one of the "dangers" to a woman following a divorce is that she will become "too independent". Ha! Ha! If men made themselves indispensable by taking more responsibility for the relationship and household/childcare duties, then women wouldn't feel like they are better off without them after a divorce. <P>I can name at least four women here (myself, Keridwen, Willbok, Nellie) who express a desire to do just that. None of us "hate men", from what I can tell. Just not willing to pull their weight in addition to our own so much of the time.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited June 26, 2000).]

TS,<P>I think I fell in that category for awhile. I have never suffered financially, bought my first townhouse at 25, etc. My life was easier after he left - he generated more work than he was a help. And I discovered the deep dark male secret - mowing the yard is relaxing. At least it is for me. Yard work is my therapy. And seasonal. So, when you get right down to it, the only housework he did was take out the garbage. That was a mistake we both made, but now I am aware of it, and won't repeat it. But I can't deny that I don't feel complete as a single. But the nice thing for me is to I know I don't "need" a man, I want the partnership. I am happier as part of a couple, than as a single.<P>But you throw a family in there - and yes, I did almost all of the childrearing too, but the role my husband played as father, I can't duplicate that. And the father's role is as critical as the mother's. Just different. And raising them alone - the responsibility you feel is incredible, the doubts you have, about doing the right thing by them, well, you can't describe it, you don't understand it, until you are there.<P>That failure on his part, to understand his responsibility to them, is a major character flaw in him - and I can't do anything about it.<P>I can get male role models for my boys, but it isn't the same. The best I can do for them, to to find a partner for me, who will show them what a loving, sharing relationship between a man and a woman is supposed to be like. I don't want them to contribute to this fatherless society we seem to be developing.<P>A stepfather's role is going to be a tough one, and a different kind of love, but I have to make sure I find a man, whom I love, who genuinely likes my boys, and sees the wonderful opportunity he has to "help" two very sweet little boys - not view them as something to put up with, to be with me. If I find that, then a love will grow. But it will never be the same as the love they have for their father. I know the saying used to be, its just as easy to fall in love with a rich man, as a poor man - well I've adapted that - its just as easy to fall in love with a good stable Jimmy Stewart, as an exciting, irresponsible Marlon Brando. <P>I look at women like Jodie Foster - what a message she is sending her son - that men aren't important.<P>I don't think being a mother is for everyone, but if that is a path you choose in the future, maybe the good side of all the terrible things you have gone through, is you will pick a man to be with who will be a good father - you won't have to deal with all the extra hurt a divorce causes children. You get right down to it, they are the only true innocent victims of a divorce. I really screwed up there. But I know what is important now. And it only took me 43 years, and three years of separation and divorce pain to get here.

Honeywest: Well said. It is so important that we always think of the kids. They have no choice in this matter and we have the responsibility to make sure we try to make it as easy as possible for them. Of course, that really isn't possible, is it?<P>The Student: I thought you said you were leaving this site?? Glad to have you back. You always keep me thinking, rethinking, thinking, rethinking. <P>Susan: Your philosophy on life is a lot like mine. It's good to hear from you.<P>So far, things are going well for me. I am still seeing the same guy and I only see him when the kids are with the x. We talk all the time about what is said here and what we are getting ourselves into. So far so good but the best or worst is yet to come.<P>See ya.

TS,<BR>There's a book called "What your Mother Couldn't Tell You and Your Father Didn't Know" by John Gray, PhD(Men from Venus, Woman from Mars author) that supports what you say about woman no having it "all" (career, family,etc.)<P>In it he says how women are taking on more traditional male characteristics in business such as aggression, workalcholicism and then then come home and the maternal instincts take over such as child care and and providing the home life,etc.<P>Meanwhile, men have been conditioned to be the primary bread winner. So after their day they come home and sit down, feeling there task for the day is over. Meanwhile the wife has worked all day, comes home, sees to the children, feeds everybody,etc. Meanwhile the man sees this as normal.<P>The book also points out the differnt way men and woman porcess things. Women like to discuss things and men normally like to think it over. So when the woman see h sitting down after work she feels unappreciated. When she say something to H, he hears *****ing, so he withdraws, she then feels ingnored. <P>Thus if communications break down, you are ripe for marital problems such as an affair.<P>That is kind of what happened in my marriage. I worked full time, with traveling included. X worked full time so she could be there for kids. She cut the grass when she had time, I did the rest. I was bad about house cleaning, unless she nagged me.<P>She also did the all the grocery shopping, and clothes shopping, all pretty much the traditional parental roles. I did all the kids sports activities.<P>When she left me, she said I made her feel unappreciated, and she felt like she had to do all the yard work,etc. WHile I did not appreciate her fully, I never required her to do anything. <P>So with our communications problems, her MLC, and the problems I have added to the mix she was ripe for the affair. I'm still a loss to explain why she never really attempted to reconcile other than she just wanted out of the marriage.<P>Honeywest,<P>I agree alot with what you say!<P>Bob

I know that I felt the duties in our relationship were not equal....<BR>I worked fulltime, so did he....I often worked more hours than he, came home and did everything on a 4 acre mini farm. He would go play racquetball, or go out with his buddies for beers. When he was home, he spent manyhours on line chatting with people, and found the OW by doing that. <BR>I seldom complained about it after a while. I did, at first, make my concerns known. But he always agreed, said he would pitch in more, but never did. <BR>I got tired of complaining. So I just took care of everything. But in the meantime, I became resentful and distanced myself from him somewhat. And then he pursued his affair even more.<BR>When I found out about the affair, I did a turn around..I became available for him at any time, and Plan A'd my eyes out. I realized I wanted my marriage badly. But He did not recropricate by being a helpmate to me. He just took more from me. <BR>I was the best mother he could have. He enjoyed that he didn't have to worry about anything as long as I was taking care of things. But he didn't love me like a wife. I think he loved me, just not the way I needed. He had that for the OW. And would not give that up, so after two years+ I just had enough.<BR>I think he still loves me in a way. But I want more now. I also want a partner someday. I want someone who is a helpmate to me so we can have time to do things together. <BR>What does this have to do with this topic?? Nothing!! But it felt good to say it!!<P>------------------<BR>Susan

Oh, I think it had everything to do with it!<P>Dating for us is a serious matter! You get right down to it, our dating is not for just fun anymore like when we were all young and naive, it also is goal-oriented, with more noble and responsible reasons for choosing partners, or choosing to NOT have partners.<P>So many pressures today, and it is so easy to get divorced, we have to make sure we end up with someone with the same value system, so there aren't the mismatches we all seem to have gotten into.<P>TS, I hate to be oozing estrogen like this, but just so you know, I think you will make an excellent mother, if you do decide to get married again.<P>Another interesting book, which might be good for those with teenage daughters ( it scares you about what is going on in colleges today - geez, I thought it was bad in the 70s) is<BR>"What our mothers didn't tell us, why happiness eludes the modern woman", by Danielle Crittenden. Basically the marriage/family dilemma faced by women who have a career first. Again, as with all these books, not a one size fits all, but interesting reading, with some good points.<P> <P><p>[This message has been edited by honey.west (edited June 28, 2000).]

You're right. For many of us, we do need a bulletin board or a fresh thread on this topic. I can tell this thread is losing steam and since I just started dating again, it has been very helpful for me.<P>Getting married at 21 just really cramped my dating calendar. Staying married for so long left me out of practice.<P>What can we do about this?<P>I mean about the thread or BB but I guess I could consider entertaining date invitations.<P>Guys, could you pass inspection?

Hi-<P>Well I must be some kind of loser. My single chubby retired neighbor asked me out last week for pizza, he's gotta be in his late 50's or early 60's (I'm 38). On top of that, my best friend has her 25 year old niece staying at her home. She's gay. You guessed it - she's been hitting on me, and I don't have the heart to tell my friend.<P>BLAHHH!