Remember Student,<P>The Bible also says for "husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church"... and "as their own bodies"... taken from Ephesians 6.<P>It goes both ways!<P>As always, best wishes as you navigate this often painful process...

TheStudent,<BR>Yes, there is this sense of bitterness over what could have been. It all seems so futile now. If I had to go back and do it all over again? I just don't know. I wouldn't want to give up my kids, that's for sure, but if I had known 15 years ago that this would definitely happen, I probably wouldn't have married him. And you are right about something else, people who have never been betrayed by their spouse cannot understand the pain, humiliation, fear, anger, etc that goes along with it. I didn't understand it until it happened to me. I also think women have to give up way too much in a marriage. That's why this is so painful. So much of who I was got pushed away or discarded and without a backward glance, he's gone. It makes me feel totally unappreciated for the last 15 years. I will not put myself in that position again. As for the whole submit thing...not for me! I can't do that again. My therapist told me the statistics show that divorced men average about a year single before getting remarried. Women average about 4 years. You know what that tells me? Marriage is better for men than women...the women know it. I would never have left my H or divorced him had he stayed faithful, but I'm not going to put myself back out there. Once was enough.<P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

Everyone is entitled to feel as they feel and live their lives as they want to. I certainly don't feel that being part of a couple is my life's goal or the end all and be all, but I do think that closing yourself off or keeping some reserve for yourself limits your own life experience.<P>I have felt every bit of the betrayal, humiliation, wasted dreams, sacrifice of self, and all that you all speak of, but I am one of the optimistic ones who would do it all over again. I feel the gifts that came out of it outweigh the bad things and I feel I DID choose to do it knowing ahead of time that this would happen (karmic stuff).<P>I believe that part of the reason why my marriage is now ending is BECAUSE I held part of myself in reserve so that if this man was also a dog, I'd not have given him everything.<P>My H wanted a child. I didn't want to have children because I didn't want them to be faced with a life with no father (either because he was too busy working or because we ended up divorced). I wasn't totally committed. How could I be? I had one foot out the door with my defense mechanisms firmly in place. <P>I kept my maiden name. Why? I said it was because I felt I lost my identity in my first marriage and always wanted to be known as me. My H saw that as not being committed.<P>If things had been different, would it have made a difference in the long run? I can't say, but I know this was part of the problem. I know they made him feel I was less than all his. I also know that this came out of my own fear, and did me no good. It's sad really- the things you learn when it's all over.<P>I guess what I am saying is that I see how I limited myself and our relationship. Yes, things could have been done to get over this, but they weren't. So, it was as it was. While I am certainly not looking or even hoping for someone new, if I am given the opportunity to love again, I will commit to it with all my soul and being- either with my H or someone else.

I gave "What's his name" more than 21 years of my life. I even lost my virginity through a date rape I endured at his hands (you know what I mean). He packed up and left because he thought he might be happier with a woman he met at work. I've got to raise two children that were his idea after I had accepted the idea of being childfree.<P>I've been as angry as it sounds like you all are. But I stand by what I gained through SAnon. <P>That stuff is in my past. Yes, it definitely affects my present. I'm struggling with some issues now - sex and the new man - how far and when.<P>But, I can wholeheartedlly recommend that those of you who were betrayed through your partner's sexual indiscretions try it. There are groups across the nation.There may even be one in your neighborhood.<BR>.

Popeye - I think you're right. For too long I gave 'whn' too much power when I let his behavior trigger my anger.<P><BR>- - - <BR>I went for several years with no answering machine because he did not need a key to enter my house electronically and leave ugly messages for me to hear. No one has the right to beat me up. And when we have to have discussions where I suspect he will get ugly, I start the answering machine and tape them. It may not be legal but I can keep them to remind myself that I deserve someone finer and more noble than the man to whom I was married.<P>I still get angry sometimes but I don't live there anymore. Thanks to God's love and to the healing found through of time time .

It's definitely a matter of personal choice. I know people who get remarried and are very happy - my sister is one. But 2nd marriages have a higher divorce rate (probably because of the unique problems facing blended families). I don't want to be put in a position to have to choose my new mate or my kids (like my dad did - he chose new wife and has shut me and my sister completely out.) I wanted to stay with my H forever...I still love him despite what he did. But I don't have the strength or energy to do it all over again. And especially knowing the odds are against me anyway. Like I said, I can't really say if I would or would not get married to my H knowing what I know. If I don't consider my kids it's an easy "no". I gave and gave and gave and for what? He has always been more focused on his own needs and wants regardless of what I thought about anything. I don't want to be put in that situation again. Now I am responsible for anything I do. If I screw up my life at this point I have nobody to blame but me. I am enjoying making my own decisions and not being made fun of for the type of music I like, or because I sometimes enjoy watching TV, or because I read too much, or because I get sunburned easily so I'm not a sunworshipper out on the beach, or I use bug spray because I don't like getting eaten by gnats, or because I use an air mattress when I go camping because it's comfortable, or because I think drinking and smoking too much is annoying...I could go on and on. I lived through 15 years of being told what my opinion "should be" and why I was so backward. I don't want anyone else feeling it's their right to form my opinions or to tell me what I should or shouldn't enjoy or how often or when. Ok...I realize this is turning into a rant, but I feel so much better now! But that's basically why I won't get involved ever again. It's not worth it. You lose yourself in it for NOTHING! Absolutely nothing. Now he's off living the high life and I'm struggling to make ends meet. He is where he is today because of his willingness to step on me and my willingness to let him because I thought it was the right thing to do.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

"He is where he is today because of his willingness to step on me and my willingness to let him because I thought it was the right thing to do."<P>My thoughts exactly...<P>Almost all of my married girlfriends are on depression medication. NONE of my single girlfriends are on medication. My ex wanted me to get on depression medication too and I said "oh, just like all of your friends wives. What a coincidence."<P> Some studies show that married women are more depressed than single women. Just the reverse for men. Why? Cause marriage serves men IMO. Women get into it HOPING it will serve them too, but end up initiating the divorces 75% of the time. Even Harley makes that quote. I still think that marriage is at odds with a woman's happiness. Only saints can give and not get anything in return, yet that is the message that is still shoved down our throats. Or that the priviledge of being married is supposed to be enough to keep us happy. <P>Popeye,<BR>Men are not expected to give up their "maiden" names as a sign of commitment. That is my point. We women are supposed to be ABSORBED into the marriage and the man's needs and opinion of things. Like THEY are the sun, and we are the puny planets that are supposed to revolve around them. BARRRRRRRRRF. The only reason I married my second H is because he showed all signs of wanting an equal. Our marriage ended when it was obvious he was lying about that, and I called his bluff. Fortunately for me, I figured that out before I gave up my Masters and PhD.<P>NB,<BR>Thanks for setting me straight on the exact quote. I still won't submit. If there is not a single man on this planet who wants a TRUE equal, then I'll go without. I think I'll be going without for a longggg, longgg time.<BR>

This thread certainly got long all of a sudden!<P>sue,<P>I don't know that bitter is the right word. Cynical, maybe. <P>Sheba,<P>Our four youngest kids still love their father very much. I worry lately that at some point he is going to hurt them (most likely our son) too much, blame them for one too many things - and he won't want anything more to do with his father. <P>I am well aware that a lot of this is the OW's influence. When she kept telling him what to say on the phone the other day, the primary emotion I felt was embarassment-for him, not for me. It seems obvious to me that she could not love him. She limits his access to his children, and shows incredible disrespect by treating him as if he isn't capable of handling a conversation without her direction. <P>nb,<P>Thanks for your support.<P>TheStudent,<P>I think the bathing suit analogy was very apt. I think it is only sensible not to want to risk going through this again.<P>Keridwen,<P>I think second marriages do most often come down to a choice between your children and the spouse - and often the kids get the short end of the stick. And after having gone through the horror of their parents' divorce, I think it is beyond cruel to then put someone else's wants above theirs.<P>popeye,<P>You said, <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I feel I DID choose to do it knowing ahead of time that this would happen (karmic stuff).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Huh? Could you explain? <P>cinderella,<P>It is not just the infidelity that is making this so difficult. It is more a matter of his continued cruelty and apparent desire to continue to hurt me, and his willingness to do things which hurt the kids in order to appease her. <P><BR> <P>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited June 06, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited June 06, 2000).]