My wife and I were officially divorced on March 14th of this year, ending a 33+ year marriage.<P>She left me in February of 1996 and we were separated for 4 years before I finally gave up.<P>During the 4 year separation, I didn't date for 3 years and 10 months and I did everything possible to reconcile with her. <P>Finally in early December last year, I just gave up. Actually I felt that God released me from the marriage because He knew how much I was hurting and He just couldn't stand to see me hurt any longer.<P>I never dreamed I would be a divorce statistic but my former wife (hate the term ex); left me no choice. We filed a No Fault 60 divorce (state of Texas).<P>I believe because of her actions (or lack of) that she actually divorced me in her heart 4 years ago and we just made it official on March 14th of this year.<P>The point is, I was faithful to her, I prayed, cried, believed and stood for restoration even against hopeless odds. I believed that it was til 'death' do us part and not 'divorce' do us part.<P>In fact, when I first came to Marriage Builders and began posting 1 year ago, my earlier posts were very hard and critical of those that divorced. I kept saying "God Hates Divorce".<P>Finally, somebody responded to me these words that changed my whole way of thinking and gave me more compassion towards divorce victims.<P>They said "Yes, God hates divorce, but He doesn't hate those that divorce".<P>I was ready to remain single the rest of my life, wear my wedding ring and continue to believe for restoration. Guess you might say I had 'foolish faith'.<P>But in early December, due to a consistent lack of communication and even telling me it was over and she wasn't coming home; I finally gave up.<P>The funny thing is, something happened I never dreamed possible...God removed the love from my heart for her as my wife and released me from hurting/caring any longer. My former wife is somebody I 'used' to know, and is the mother of our children (we have 4).<P>I began dating a woman who I had prayed for to be restored to her former husband as she prayed for me to be restored with my former wife.<P>In fact she (B'gitte) actually spoke with my wife just before the divorce was final and tried to get her to reconsider and not to throw away 33+ years.<P>The bottom line is, without trying to or seeking it...B'gitte and I fell in love and began dating in December. We are now engaged to be married (tentatively in September).<P>I will be the first to admit that B'gitte is not God's perfect will for me, she is God's permissive will. God's perfect will would have been for me to be restored with my former wife.<P>But, God gives us all a free will and He would not cross hers since she chose to not restore with me.<P>Remember Jesus said the only reason divorce was permitted to be written into the Law of Moses was "due to the hardness of men's hearts, but from the beginning it wasn't meant to be so".<P>So, God gave us an out because of the hardness of hearts and because my wife's heart was obvioulsy hardened towards me, despite the changes and attempts to make things right...I believe He released me from the marriage.<P>I had so many people tell me they couldn't see how I could have held out for 4 years before giving up. No, we didn't have sex during our separation and in fact; my former wife is the ONLY woman I have ever had sex with.<P>We were both virgins when we married back in 1966.<P>Even my daughter in law told me I had nothing to feel guilty about in divorcing because she said she knew I had done everything possible to reconcile.<P>The tragic thing is, both my former wife and I are ministers, in fact she is a missionary and obviously felt her calling was more important than her marriage or family.<P>She has moved to Jordan and she wasn't here last year for our daughters' high school graduation, her 18th birthday or her wedding (last month) and will not be here when my 19 year daughter has her baby this November. She isn't coming home til January.<P>I will never believe that God puts ministry ahead of marriage or the home! This was the main contention between us.<P>Anyway...this thread sounds like I am defending myself and perhaps I have. But, I just wanted TS and others to know there are a few good men left who believe in the sanctity of marriage, committment, the family and the home.<P>I believe God is going to give me a 2d chance with B'gitte and she too is a minister, but says "marriage will always come before ministry".<P>Even during and after the divorce I tried 3 different times to communicate with my former wife via e-mail and letters but she didn't respond to anything.<P>In fact, I haven't seen or heard her voice in over 14 months and when she came home in February for 6 weeks...she never called me or contacted me. She stayed with our son just a few miles away.<P>In fact, I even e-mailed her and told her I wanted to call her and ask her out for a dinner date for Valentine's Day but I didn't.<P>Even up til then, I guess I would have been willing to restore. Even B'gitte said she would be willing to give me up as much as it would hurt her because she knew that that was God's perfect will.<P>But, when my former wife totally ignored me and even brought up my past to B'gitte on the phone and said many horrible things about me; I just gave up.<P>In closing, God's will is not fragile! In other words, if we blow it or make a mistake; God doesn't wring His hands and wonder what He is going to do. He is able to work for us even in the midst of mistakes and failures.<P>He will always be the God of the 2d, 3d and on and on chance.<P>[censored] from Texas <BR>

thanks for the post [censored].....my husband also hates divorce.....to the point that he does not like me to have any friends that are divorced....even if they were friends before their divorce......<P>your words......"God hates divorce, but He doesn't hate those who divorce" will be an asset to me.....I have hard a hard time defending my friendships.....I know that God loves them.....that He has not given up on them......these words will help.....<P>I will reread your post a couple of more times to glean more knowledge....thank you<P>still

Thanks for your post.<P>I too didn't know what to do when my x asked for a divorce because I knew God hates divorce. I was told by my minister at the time that if my husband breaks his covenant to me, then I am free to go on, without guilt, etc.<P>I have been told by people in my divorce support group that the reason God hates divorce so much is because he knows how painful it is because he divorced Israel. Of course, you probably know that being a minister. <P>Thanks for the encouraging words of God's love for us. I wish you luck in your new relationship and I admire your persistence with your past marriage.

Hi [censored],<P>You know you said something that got me thinking. Always a bad idea. Please understand that I am not casting aspersions on your former wife, but don't you think it odd, that a minister cannot find forgiveness in their heart.<P>Your former W got what she wanted and still she can do nothing but say bad things about you. It puzzles me, but then I nor anyone else really understands Gods plan.<P>It is so sad, that she has this attitude because I am sure it bothers your children greatly that they cannot see the both of you. They must choose between the two of you when she is home. That is so sad. Perhaps when she comes home this time the two of you can find a way to set the bad part of the past aside, and put your children at easy.<P>I suspect it would be your greatest gift to them.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

[censored],<P>There is no question that you kept the faith in your marriage until the bitter end. Even though your marriage ended in a divorce, I would never, ever consider you, or others like you, to be without the commitment required to sustain a marriage. Many people on this board have gone through many trials in order to save their marriages, and it is not these people I'm worried about. I'm worried about the vast majority of divorces that occur due to extreme selfishness and pride. <P>I no longer have any hope of restoration with my ex-husband. That is not why I am celibate now. It is just that he is not a sentimental person. He will quickly and easily find a replacement for me (if he hasn't done so already) and never look back. <P>I know there are good men out there, [censored]. Those men deserve a woman who has not lost faith. That person is not me. I can't imagine ever giving of myself in that way again. A truly good man deserves better than what I am capable of giving. That sounds kind of pathetic, probably, but it is true. <P>I'm happy that you have found peace, and love as well. Best wishes to both of you.

Hi TS,<P>You will be surprised about what life has in store for you. You have learned many things about yourself, but one thing you haven't learned is that you are a good person and a good man will find you well worth the effort of getting to know you and making your life joyful.<P>You are on the right track now, but don't close any doors you don't have to.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<P>We could call this "The Good Man" thread...<P>I know I'm a good person in alot of areas. There are other areas that I'm not a good person, and that is something I've had to accept. Any man who would be "ok" with a woman who had two divorces and had cheated on her last one, is a man who probably has some pretty loose morals himself or just doesn't care that much. A good man deserves better. There are many,many women out there for him. I'm not so selfish to deprive a good man from being with a woman who has not done the things I have done. I'm not so desperate to settle for a man who thinks my past is "ok". I'm no hypocrite. I wouldn't want a man who has done what I've done. So, I'm content enough to find love in other ways. <P>I know God has forgiven me. Humans are a different matter.<P>I've made my bad choices. There are some things you can't live down, and infidelity is one of them. That is just the way it is. All I can do is make sure that others (including my future children) don't make the same mistakes I have. <P>Besides, I was willing to live with the doubts and suspicion of my ex-husband in order to keep my marriage. However, now that my marriage is over, I'd rather be alone than either lie about my life or live with the (reasonable) doubts a consciencious "good" man would have about my past. <P>I work in a field that is dominated by men. I now have the freedom to interact with my co-workers, go on business trips, etc. without having a significant other looking over my shoulder constantly or worrying that I'll cheat on him. That is one thing I certainly don't miss about my marriage. <P>Harley says that past weaknesses should be confessed so that the other person can help them stay strong. My ex is the only person I had anything to "prove" to in regards to my fidelity. Noone else will get that priviledge.<P>Anyway, I've digressed. [censored], you are a good man. You have found a good woman who is worthy of you. That is what I hope for all the good men out there. Thank you for posting your story. I'm sure the other good women on this board who have been betrayed will find hope in your story that they can be happy again someday. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited June 29, 2000).]

[censored],<BR>I'm so happy for you and your fiance' !<BR>Are we all invited to the wedding ? LOL<P>My minister friend, who also told me about God hating divorce but loving divorcees, has also told me God has a plan for me, and may have used the divorce to "mold" me into a better man.<P>I wish He could have found an easier way ! But again "fire" is used to change many things.<P>I am starting to feel sorry for my x. She has given up everything, her children, her friends, even her parents and sister, her religon, and now even her job that she said she loved. All for what???<P>Again [censored], I wish the both of you the best.<P>God Bless,<P>Bob

[censored] - what you said really touched me.<P>I prayed and waited for 2-1/2 years before I filed for my divorce. During that time I really worked hard on myself. H had filed but had it dismissed in those years. But he didn't work on himself.<P>Just as a mechanic can't fix a car if all he has is broken parts, the therapist can't help you fix a marriage if you have two borken partners. First fix the partners then fix the marriage.<P>Anyway, I digress. I realized that God gave us the ability and the right to make choices. Some of our choices will be good and some will be bad. But, they will all have consequences. Others will be affected by our choices. Sometimes they will be helped and sometimes they will be hurt.<P>So, God - who made us and loves us - doesn't control every thing that goes on. He allows us to make bad choices and to hurt both ourselves and others. He doesn't rescue us from big messes every time. He gives us strength and possibilities - and some miracles along the way. <P>***Because He gave us the ability to choose, even God doesn't always get his way.***<P>But I do believe He is there, He cares, and He holds me though He lets me mess up and struggle along. And sometimes I have to deal with the messes other people made.<BR>

Thanks to all who have responded!<P>I think this is the most positive feed-back I have had in posting on MB in the year I have been here...thank you each again!<P>The Student<BR>I have followed your story and read many of your posts. I have always picked up an undertone of synicism and sometimes bitterness.<P>I am not attacking you for I haven't walked in your shoes. But, this morning when I read your response to my post, I saw you in a whole new light and I just wanted to try to encourage you.<P>Never say never! I too felt I could never love again. I do not care how many mistakes and failures you have had, God's grace and His love/mercy is greater than ANYTHING you've ever done or experienced!<P>You are a wounded spirit...obviously your soul had this gigantic hole blown right thru the middle...you are fragmented emotionally speaking. However....you are on the road back to health!<P>However it takes time..it is a process, there is no magic wave of the wand and 'poof' you're healed...no quick fixes.<P>What I discern is, you are still beating up (flagellating) yourself for your past...give it up..it is an endless cycle. I am speaking from personal experience because of how I beat myself up.<P>You need to just bask in God's undconditional love for you and realize you are special to Him. If you can learn to receive His love without feeling you must earn it or work for it...then you can begin to learn to love yourself.<P>Again....I'm not being critical of you but I felt the love of God rise up in me for you today and I want to encourage you that weeping may endure for a night, but Joy cometh in the morning.<P>God is a God of New Beginnings and Fresh Starts. In fact, let me challenge you to do something I do most every morning. When you arise confess out loud first thing "Father, your word declares in Lamentations 3:22,23 that your mercies and compassion are fresh every morning, great is your faithfulness".<P>Also confess this: Lord, I thank you that today is the first day of the rest of my life, today you give me a fresh start, clean slate and new beginning.<P>((Actually what I have written to TS is for anyone who will apply it))<P>RWD (Bob)<P>Thanks for your kind wishes. I have followed your story and I think your divorce occured somewhere around the time mine did. I also read of your attempts to reconcile and you are one of the rare, committed men who believe in the sanctity of marriage.<P>Bob...I, too wish you God's blessings as you pick up the pieces and go on with your life.<BR>Remember in the Book of Isaiah (Chapter 61) it says "God gives us beauty for ashes and the garment of praise for a spirit of heaviness or mourning".<P>Give God the broken pieces of your life and let Him put them back together.<P>God Bless all who responded and remember "God's will is not fragile...He can work in the midst of the most impossible and adverse circumstances. He wants each of us to be happy for it was He that placed within each of us the desire for one, special relatioship.<P>He just wants us to keep our priorities straight and make Him #1"<P>In closing...let me share from Psalms 27 (the last verse) which says: "What, what would of become of me had I not believed to see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living".<P>In other words, God wants to turn your life around here in this life and not when you go to heaven!<P>Always remember...what the devil (enemy) means for destruction....God always turns it to our good!<P>[censored] from Texas

TS...<BR> I have to butt in here (sorry, its my nature )<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Any man who would be "ok" with a woman who had two divorces and had cheated on her last one, is a man who probably has some pretty loose morals himself or just doesn't care that much. A good man deserves better. There are many,many women out there for him. I'm not so selfish to deprive a good man from<BR>being with a woman who has not done the things I have done<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There is a big difference in making bad choices and being a "bad" person, or one not worthy of a good marriage. Maybe you truly never want to marry again, and that is OK. But, don't let it be because you feel you are "damaged goods." You are not. You are, like all of us, a person who has lived and loved imperfectly. If/when you get to the right point in your life, and find the right person, it won't matter a whit.<P>Kathi

Cinderella<P>Thanks for your response which obviously came in while I was posting my latest response.<P>You said something about broken partners that I wanted to comment on.<P>Something I heard just after my wife left me back in 1996 was this: In the natural world, 1/2 + 1/2 = 1 - However, in the spirit and in God's economy this isn't true.<P>With the Lord it's 1 + 1 = 1<P>In other words, God is not interested in bringing 2 broken halves back together to make 1 broken whole.<P>God wants to bring two "whole" people together to make one "complete whole".<P>You are so right....we must let Him change us and we must work on our issues. In relationships, people should feed upon one another's strengths and the relationship should be healthy/sound rather than 2 dysfunctional people feeding upon the other's weaknesses which will produce an 'unhealthy' relationship.<P>This is why it is so vital for us to learn self-love. Not 'selfish' love, but self-love. For Jesus said "we will love our neighbor as we love ourself".<P>In other words, Jesus was saying "we will love our neighbor (husband/wife/others) in direct proportion as to how we love ourselves.<P>How can we love others if we hate ourselves?<P>God bless you Cinderella and I pray your coach doesn't turn into a pumpkin and that your Prince Charming will come and fit you with the glass slipper!<P>[censored] from Texas

TS<P>One more thought I wanted to share with you as I just re-read your response here.<P>You need to learn to separate the "WHO" from the "DO"<P>What I mean is....you need to separate who you are from what you do!<P>I have finally learned to love myself and who I am (in Christ)...but I don't always love "what" I do.<P>I used to say "Oh, I'm so stupid..I'm so dumb".....this is wrong!<P>What I learned was "Smart people do stupid or dumb things". But, just because they do stupid or dumb things...doesn't make them (or you) stupid.<P>The problem is..too many people are "performance oriented". They find their worth and value (and identity) in WHAT they do rather than WHO they are.<P>Here is what I have come to in my life:<P>I am an "Everything/Nothing". I am Everything in Jesus but Nothing without Him"<P>Remember, God's unconditional love is always based on WHO you and I are....not in what we DO.<P>Learn to separate your "who" from your "do".<P>God Bless...<P>[censored] from Texas

Periodically, I attend meetings of a non-relious spiritual group. While I do have problems with portions of the meetings, I have gained much healing from some of the activities.<P>Almost everyone there has a very painful past. Addictions, abuse, abandonment; need I go on?<P>I was so touched at the first meeting when the closing activity was the singing of a song. You were to go around the group, everyone at once, sort of mass confusion-style - place your hand on someone else's heart (if permitted), look into their eyes, and sing:<BR> How could anyone ever tell you<BR> you were anything less than beautiful?<BR> How could anyone ever tell you<BR> you were less than whole?<BR> Has anyone ever told you that your <BR> loving is a miracle,<BR> How deeply you're connected to my soul?<P>I was in a group of almost all total strangers but I felt so loved and valued by these people. You know, that's what I'm praying for in my near future!<P>I get it from God!! Perhaps soon I'll get it from a whole, health, happy man.

[censored], <P>Although I am not too familiar with your personal story, I just want to say that I am happy to hear that you are going to try marriage again. Keep us posted on your success!<P>Dana<BR>

WOW!!!!! WOW!!!!! WOW!!!!!!<P>please keep posting [censored]....your words are of such comfort to me.....I am learning about the God of Love in your words...I truly believe that He is speaking through you.....who knows maybe you have gone through this tragedy in your life to help the poor souls on this thread.....from a perspective you may not have embraced 5 years ago......<P>I do believe you have ministered to me......<P>((((TS))))I so understand where you are coming from......that is why [censored]'s words about WHO and DO are so meaningful......I have thought the same thing about myself...to the point of believing that I deserve verbal and physical abuse from the very husband I cheated on......because I did cheat on him, I deserve what he dishes out.....I could not separate the WHO from the DO.....I was a bad person.....because of what I had done.....I know this is not true....but I have had it drilled into me, by the husband who claims to love me with all his heart......<P>even now I struggle with whether I should tell him to move out.....after a violent incident.....which he has not apologized for, but has stated that I had made him so angry......<P>this thread has helped......will read and reread it.....thank you [censored] for allowing God to work through you......<P>

Amen!<P>He works through all of us at sometime or another. I sometimes struggle to see that and sometimes it is as clear as a bell.<P>Frankly, this bb is a blessing to me. I don't know that many divorced people. And I have often felt that my problems were unique or really tough. Then I hear someone else's and I see my blessings.<P>I have found lots of strength, hope, and encouragment here. I plan on staying. This particular thread has been good for me this week. It's been a tough one. The reminder of the fact that "who" and "do" are different is timely.<P>Each day I am "blown away" by the realization that if I am sorry for my wrongs and ask my Heavenly Father to forgive me, He does, right then, the first time I ask. And it's gone! I have trouble doing that for my children. How God must love me! He's the one who's there for me. He knows, cares, understands, and strengthens me. Thanks for the reminder.

Dana<P>Thanks for stopping by and for your words of encouragement.<P>StillDreamin'<P>I am blessed that you were ministered to by what I shared. In 2 Corinthians 1, verses 3 and 4, The Apostle Paul (paraphrased) tells us that the comfort we are comforted with when we go through tough times is so that we can share this same comfort with others.<P>In other words, we are not to waste our sorrows. Sorrow is life's greatest teacher.<P>Listen to David said in Psalms 119:71 "Lord, it has been good for me that I have been afflicted (hebrew word here is hurt)for through it have I learned thy precepts"<P>In other words, God does not cause our hard times and pain....but He can certainly use these times as wake up calls to draw us to Himself.<P>His mercy/compassion is F-R-E-S-H every morning and He puts our sins away from Him as far as the East is from the West. Another scripture says He puts ours sins behind His back and remembers them no more.<P>If you are feeling condemned/guilty..this is not from the Lord..this is from Satan!<P>We all have within us, some degree of masochism (or the need to be punished) for our sins/mistakes. But, this is poor theology!<P>Yes, there are consequences to our choices and we do reap what we sow...but Praise God; we ALL have the chance to plant another crop and reap a good harvest.....just remember it takes time.<P>There are 4 stages to Love and they MUST come in this order.<P>1st - We need to accept the fact that we are unconditionally loved by God. We must accept His love and feel His love<P>2d - Once we do this, we can finally begin to love ourselves, but only after we know that we know that God loves us regardless of our performance, behavior or failures<P>3d - Once we get #1 & #2 down pat, then we can begin to love Him back <P>4th -Then, once steps 1, 2 & 3 are accomplished then we can begin to go out and love others.<P>Here's the problem: many people (including me or the way I used to be) try to go out and love others while they still hate themselves and haven't forgiven themselves.<P>By they way, the only way we can forgive ourselves is for us to receive God's unconditional love and His forgiveness.<P>Remember, Jesus said "You will love your neighbor (spouse or family) as you love yourself"<P>Again...it is a process...it takes time...God works with us where we are at and we are all at different levels of growth, maturity and healing.<P>Something I just learned and that is people who refuse to forgive are actually using unforgiveness as a means of control. <P>Just remember...no matter how dark it may seem...there is always hope! Never lose your hope.<P>In closing, something else I have learned is instead of looking at how far I have to go, I need to look at how far I've come. Also remember this....you can't change anyone, you can't even change youself!<P>Only the Lord can change you...all He wants is your willingness and cooperation.<P>Hope I have blessed somebody.<P>[censored] from Texas<p>[This message has been edited by [censored] (edited June 30, 2000).]

[censored],<P>You may have really done something here. I just about skipped this post because of the title. Good stuff.<P> I am not sure if I will last for four years since no one in the family is encouraging me to wait. <P>After reading everything so far, I think you and others have already said almost everything I had to add. Especially the encouragement to TS, though I think right now I do not feel like I could even trust a virgin, again.<P>I have tried to pass on this site to "healthy" married friends and co-workers. The responses to and from you will be one more reason to suggest it.<P>I, too, hold the wish and desire to remain with my first lover. (There is a piece on NPR at this moment on celibacy.) The growing I have gone through during these months of celibacy has been more than I thought possible.<P>When I have talked with my wife about it, she tends to take offense. I do not like to guess why. However, I feel she is unable to accept the changes I have made in my body and soul. <P>I wish she could access these posts.<P>I will sit back and keep eavesdropping as long as this thread keeps getting responses.<BR>Thank you, <BR>RRunRR<P>ps. Got your sermon done yet?<BR><P>------------------<BR>Almost anything can be undone or forgiven.

I've struggled off and on for years. I never got enough positive feedback to meet my emotiional needs. But who has. I have a couple of neighbors who have given me a lot, my brother-in-law has, my mother has, my children's teachers, and my friends at church - but that started after my marriage disintegrated. Prior to that, I was sucking fumes. <P>And I still have a lot of trouble with the negative self talk tapes in my head. I can tell other people about my triumphs when that is appropriate but, when I'm alone, it's hard to not play those tapes. <P>I've had a lot of trouble with forgiving myself - not just for my role in the end of my marriage (by the way, I'm a bad housekeeper and, to hear x tell it, it "ate him alive". Well, I wish it had). He never admitted he had done anything wrong. What about the ..........<P>So it is really important to me that I try to remember that once I ask God to forgive me, it's gone. I can quit beating myself up. After all, we are to love others as we love ourselves. I can't love them unless - repeat, unless - I love myself.<P>