Bruce,<p>I understand what your question is. All I can do is tell you about me but it doesn't mean this is how your wife feels. I know that I have an emotional wall. I even know how each brick was put in place. I grew up taking care of those around me. When my parents fought my mom would come to me for help and understanding. I saw the pain that my mother went through when she confronted my dad. Don't get me wrong they had a pretty good marriage but when they did fight I saw the pain. I was insecure when I got married and was actually surprised when my H proposed to me. In my mind I wasn't going to do anything to give him a reason to leave me. If I didn't like what was going on I bit my lip and held it all inside. If he didn't like what I was doing I would change what I was doing. Each time I didn't speak up for myself I placed a brick on the wall. Each time I let him contol what I did I placed a brick on the wall. Everytime something happened to make me mad or sad I held it in and kept building my wall. Why did I keep doing this? One because it is the way I was taught to deal with problems, two because of my insecurity.<p>Now you want to know why (if we know that the wall is there)we don't just take it down seeing how it is hurting the relationship. For me it is the unsurity that he really has changed and the fear that I will lose him if he sees the real me. If I stand up to him will it be too much for him. Will he still like the me he has in front of him? He tells me that he is not leaving and will always be here that he wants to work on things but in my heart I don't believe what he says. In the past we had little blowups and he had his chance to show me he would change and he never did. So what makes this time the one. Past history shows me that the changes never lasted. For my wall to come down I want proof. I want consistency, understanding, and love.<p>The catch is for him to give me consistency, understanding, and love he wants my wall to come down. So where does that put us. One of us will have to give. Because I want this I am willing to let my wall down one more time but I also have to do my part to stand my ground and stict to my values. I don't know if you do your part that your wife will let her wall down because in the end she has to decide that she wants it down. You can not take it down for her. And I know that for some the wall never comes down because the hurt is too much. I hope this helps you because I feel our pain and want happiness for you. My prayers are with you. <p>Steph

Steph,<p>Thanks so much for this answer. I suppose my wife has fear about whether or not I'll be consistent in the future. But whatever I've been I've never been a lier to her. She describes herself as having been burnt by me, and so I guess she will have to take time to see if she believes I won't burn her again.<br>I come from a broken home myself and I swore I'd never cause such a situation myself.<br>When I think that she might not give me the chance to prove myself and let me back inside that wall, and I know that that means my family will be broken up, it almost paralyzes me with dread.<br>I really think you did the right thing in taking a stand. Thing is it may be the thing that saves your relationship because even now you are willing to let your husband prove himself.<br>I think that my wife will also but there have been so many emotional ups and downs that I am almost afraid to trust it. One day she says and does things that are hopeful. Another day it's as if I don't exist. A worse torture could not have been thought up, and it leaves you reeling and wondering just what to think and feel.<br>I know that my wife has been hurt but I don't think it is so bad that she won't give me a chance if I do the right thing. But that's what I hope. I've seen this thing slide inexorably towards the edge of the cliff in spite of my best efforts and it makes me fearful that nothing I do will matter. But all I can do is continue trying because I won't give up until I know it's over.

Bruce---<br>listen to Steph---she says it all so well. And she covers it all.<br>I just wanted to point out something in my relationship that may shed some light (or at least make you think) about yours.<br>My husband thought he never lied to me. But something I also considered lieing is saying something and not doing it. For example he asked me what I wanted for my birthday. This was right after I quit my job to stay with our daughter, we didn't have much $$. I told him I'd love to have him dig a patch so I could have a garden. He agreed, but never did it. That was a brick, after countless other letdowns like that I had a nice sturdy wall built up. Recently we talked about many of those incidents. He told me that he avoids confrontation. (so he would tell me yes about many things, but NEVER mean it) in his mind this was better than telling me no!! So in time of course, I would just never ask him to do something for me (or go somewhere or help with something etc) and that (on top of all our other problems) really seperated our lives so much. Sometimes now he will help me clear the table after dinner and it floors me, I really try to show him my appreciation. But Steph is right, be consistant. Don't just give her a hug some days (but I know your wife doesn't want the hugs---right??) give her a hug EVERYday. Don't make those hugs conditional. (ie, if the house is spotless you deserve a hug, but if their are toys scattered around you don't get one). Good luck.

Steph is right Bruce - and the CONSISTENT thing I think is starting to work for me. EVEN if my husband and I start disagreeing or I feel the tension starting to rise - no matter WHAT, I try to give a hug or a kiss or just start a nicer conversation. I just feel that even if he doesn't understand how HARD I am trying; it is still up to me to try, try, try. It makes things better for us and him happier.l can tell.

All,<p>Thanks to all the women for these responses, especially Steph.<br>GBM, I think you are right in that I failed to some things in the past that I said I would, and my wife could be seeing that as lying. She has in fact told me that she hated it when I did that.<br>Cndy, if I could hug my wife every day I would. I'm not sure she would let me and even if she did it would be like hugging a tree. Maybe I should do it anyway. I don't know.<br>Tonight I went out and spent the whole evening away from the house. I went down to a school track I jog on and prayed in the dark. It's the only place I could go without being disturbed or having car lights in my face.<br>What a state for a man to be in. I feel like a helpless nothing.

Awwww,Bruce,l feel so sad for you today! First you had me smiling with the tree analogy(l try to find some humor in all our posts to lighten our lives),then by then end you had me cry with the helpless nothing. l l can imagine how hard this is on a man who really wants to keep his family together,since men are generally the ones who feel like they should be the ones to keep it all together or whatever-oh well,you know what l mean,that inborn man thing. l sometimes think this situation must be worse for a man because it somehow cuts deeper to his *manliness,than it does to a woman with her *femeninity-know what l mean? Anyway, Don't give up yet.You are worth it. l walk for an hr everynight myself and do take some solace knowing there are others out there like me. Kinda like when Feivel and his sister are separated but singing to eachother!LOL! Strange how it does make me feel better about myself. l am beginning to see that if my H does decide this is truly over then l will STILL be a great person who deserves a good life and he will be the one losing out. My feelings of hoplessless and unworthiness are gone,although l do still hurt for the what could be if he could only see it. Seriously.........take care of yourself,and everything else will follow!!!<br>ali

<br>Ok, ladies. If possible I'd like to avail myself once again of your insight. What's with the up and down thing? How can my wife treat me so good last week and like a stepchild this week without my having done anything over known problems to bring it on? This is a source of great confusion.<br>I called her at work just an hour ago and asked her how she felt about going out to dinner on Saturday evening. She said she had planned to go out with her friend Erica, but just tell her where I want to go and we'll go.<br>So she'll break a date with Erica to go with me. That's as it should be in my view, but at any rate I feel good about that. But from experience i know that the very next day I may be treated like a college room mate.<br>On the one hand she sometimes makes me feel like I'm a leper. On the other she'll do things that make me feel great. For me to try and analyze that is a path to the crazy house. Can anybody explain it?

<br>Ok, ladies. If possible I'd like to avail myself once again of your insight. What's with the up and down thing? How can my wife treat me so good last week and like a stepchild this week without my having done anything over known problems to bring it on? This is a source of great confusion.<br>I called her at work just an hour ago and asked her how she felt about going out to dinner on Saturday evening. She said she had planned to go out with her friend Erica, but just tell her where I want to go and we'll go.<br>So she'll break a date with Erica to go with me. That's as it should be in my view, but at any rate I feel good about that. But from experience i know that the very next day I may be treated like a college room mate.<br>On the one hand she sometimes makes me feel like I'm a leper. On the other she'll do things that make me feel great. For me to try and analyze that is a path to the crazy house. Can anybody explain it?

Bruce,<br>The only thing I can tell you is it goes on all the time. It's obvious from our situations that we can not read their minds, even though we are expected to. It could be something you did, or didn't do. Or, just that she expected you to do something that you didn't. Right now, your wife (and mine) is in as much turmoil as you. The difference is they have been living like this (internally) for a while, and are used to it. For us, it's fairly new. I hope we don't have time to get used to it. Everyone keeps telling me that it took years to build that wall. You can't expect to knock it down overnight. But, if you work a little each day, it's bound to fall sooner or later. Also, if you havn't read the book "Men are from Mars, Women from Venus", I recommend it. Highly. The walls that are built are based on lack of communication, and misinterpreted communication. <p>Ladies,<br>I see lots of parrallels between your words and my wife's. She, herself, doesn't know if she is unable, or unwilling, to let me inside those walls. Some weeks she tries to be affectionate, and accept my affection. Others, she is almost irate with me. This week was good. We talked, and learned about each other. Although we had a major fight, the next morning we both let it go and re-assured each other we were ok. <br>There were probably several factors in my wifes "softening". But I think that two major ones were: 1) I told her I was going to stop showing my affection to her. Since, like Bruce's wife, she didn't want it. I called it cohabitation. 2)I demanded that we tell our kids that we were having problems.<br>I think that brought the reality of the situation to her. Perhaps one brick was dislodged. <br>

Bruce,<p>It is true that we do tend to want the man to read our minds. Things that seem so simple to us men (and I don't mean all) don't even see. I'm guilty of getting really mad at my H to the point of ignoring him and refusing to touch him. I will give you an example of why and maybe it will help you to see. Just last night I sat down with my H and told him that I needed more help from him. I needed him to help with the kids and help with cleaning the house. I'm very touchy about how clean the house is because we have a dog and a baby that crawls and I don't want the baby crawling around it dirt. With that said I proceed to take my older kids to an ice show and didn't get home till 10 p.m. When I came home the dinner dishes were still on the table. The house was a mess and the dog had gone to the bathroom on the kitchen floor and all he did was place newspaper over the top of it. I was livid and thought he should understand why. After I got the kids in bed he wanted a hug and I told him no. He asked me why and I told him it was obvious. I went about my business cleaning. I thought because he was home alone he would have at least cleaned up one thing. The least he could have done was clean up the dog mess. He just went to bed. This morning I was cold and distant because this had been resolved in my mind. In his mind it was done and over lets move on. I'm over it now but it took me longer than it took him. There are times that I'm having a bad day and old issues that were never talked through will come to mind and I will get distant with him over something that happened months before. For me it is that these things have never been talked over or resolved in my mind. Without having closure I can't just get over it. That is why I can be loving at one moment and distant and cold the next.<p>I have to tell you that I let my wall down and the response I got for my honesty was that I was being selfish. Very tempting to put that wall back up and just move on but my kids deserve the best I can do and running is not the answer for me. Keep it up guys. Even if we don't win we will be better for trying. <p>Steph

Bruce,<br> You can always bring a little laughter out of me! Maybe we can all start a leper colony?;-) l really need to ask you men a question about men and their hot cold attitude about sex! unfortunately l don't have the time right now because l have to get ready for tomorrow.......drum roll please..........we are going to a pairs seminar. l told him it wasn't just to try to get the marriage back together but it was more so for the kids, so that we can learn to communicate because like it or not we are stuck with eachother for life because of them and we will need how to be the best parents to them we can be even if it is apart. Our biggest problem right now is we can't talk and l can't live like this anymore because l know it is not good for any of us. l dont' know how it will go,but l am going with a positive attitude. l have gotten so much strength from this forum........ and my meds;-) Now, lets just hope that Saddam will stop this nonsense cuz he is messing up MY life right now and if he ruins this weekend l will personally go kick his butt! Already we had to get special permission to go cuz it is 2 hrs away,and my h is on standby, but we can't stay over night so we have to drive it both days. Wish us luck!!!!<br>Ali

Ali,<p>I can't wait to hear your question about men's hot and cold attitude about sex. My attitude in that regard is always hot. Maybe I'm abnormal.

Bill,<p>Good point about the fact that our wives have been living this way internally for a good while, therefore they're used to it.<br>I agree that I hope we won't get time to get that used to it. If it goes on too long I'll be drinking lithium milkshakes.<p>Steph,<p>I think it's true that you women do expect us to see what you view as simple. Now in the case you just described with your husband leaving the dog crap on the floor, that would have been simple to me also. I couldn't have stood it even if my wife didn't care.<br>In my case she said I didn't used to clean much, and she was right. Since I've re-examined how I should act I have this outlook; My wife works. I don't think she should have to, that is we shouldn't have to depend on her bringing in a salary. But since we do at the present time I now try to divest her of excess weight.<br>She now hardly ever has to do dishes. Often I'm doing dishes while she's on the computer. I've always gotten the kids breakfast in the mornings. I keep the floors swept. If she mentions that the boys need something (another sore spot with her from the past) I say let's get it. I try not to leave something broken unrepaired or not replaced any longer than I have to. These are things she said she has noted that I'm doing. Also, if I say I'm going to do something (like I recently told my son I'd by him some cd's on math)I do it as soon as possible. My wife was waiting to see if I'd do that and I did it the next day. I'm very conscious of this stuff now. If I slip up it's truly because I had a good reason. That's why I'm mystified about how she treats me at times. I'm sure there are some things I'm not doing right. She said that but has yet to tell me what.<p>She's about to turn forty and I think this is playing a big part in this whole affair. She is determined that she is not going to waste any more years in the way we did before. I don't blame her and I keep expressing that I just want the chance to show that it won't be that way.<br>The boys went to a birthday party for a few hours tonight. My wife asked if I wanted sex and I said I'm not turning anything down these days. I asked if she felt she could kiss me, because even with sex she doesn't kiss as much as she used to. She laughed. When she saw the look on my face she asked what's wrong. I said I was just confused about a whole lot of this.<br>She said it will be clear to me one day, whatever that meant. Later she spent the evening with me on the couch and fell asleep leaning on me. I didn't even want to get up to use the restroom.<br>I'm rambling now. The journey continues.

Bruce,<p>Your probably right about her turning fourty playing some part in this. Her actions make me somewhat confused also. If my husband made half the effort that you make I would be thrilled. My H reads this board often while I am going through it and responding. I asked him one night why he didn't fight for our marriage like the men on here seem to be fighting for theirs. He didn't have an answer for me. I let it drop because I don't want to add new issues to our already huge problem. I was wondering one thing though. Does it bother you when she just outright asks if you wants sex? This would drive my H up a wall. If I am willing then he just wants me it initiate it. If I ask about it he doesn't want it. I wish I could offer you more advice or tell you the one thing it would take to make this end. From what your wife said about someday this all making sense I think she was just saying that she needs time. The hardest part about trying to fix this whole thing is being patient and giving it the time it needs to heal correctly. If you push it you can end up reopening the wounds and having to start from scratch. Hang in there Bruce. My prayers are with you as always.<p>Steph

Steph,<p>Yes, it does drive me up a wall for her to ask me if I want sex. Every time I say why do you have to ask? You know me, you know what I like. Yes, I hate that.<br>But I've been reduced to the point where I cannot afford to be too choosy. Also I have determined that no matter what sort of attitude my wife shows before sex I will go in there and make it a great time. Even if she is acting particularly unsexual, if she lets me take her in the bedroom I erase that attitude. At least by the time we're finished you wouldn't know she started out with an attitude if you hadn't seen it beforehand.<br>But this is one of her characteristics. She has never been the greatest of initiators, but she did do it sometimes. I guess you can say she still initiates. She knows that if two or three days go by I'm ready, so she'll generally say something even though it's not in the way I yearn for it to be.<br>But, like you said, it's going to take time. Thanks again, Steph.

Bruce--Here's my 2cents.<p>When my husband think I'm being "moody" in actuality it is because HE has changed HIS mood. That's why the consistency is so important. My husband will treat me great one day and perhaps do something loving. Maybe we end up being intimate...then that's enough for him til the next time he's ready to have sexx (usually a bout a month later) and he just doesn't get it that I'd like attention at some other time than in bed right before. But from what it sound like, you ARE doing all the right hings. I would also be thrilled if my husband was involved as you are. But hey, my husband would never even come to a site like this, let alone, post on it. So, once agin, consistnecy has ALOT to do with it for me.<br>But also, I have also noticed that my monthly moods have changed since I've had children. I never used to suffer from PMS. Now I have 2 low times, when I'm ovulating adn right before my period. They have actually gotten better since I am taking Prozac. <br>Hope this helps you somewhat. Good luck.

GBM,<p>I never wait until time for sex to show caring. I love just having my wife sit next to me. Of course in my present starving state I'm sure that's a reason why, but I've never been one to only show affection when I want sex.<br>We had a long talk yesterday. My wife flatly told me that if I give her the space she feels she needs (by leaving for a while) she said she thinks she'll be ok. She even went as far as to tell me that she knows there is nothing out there to desire as far as being single again.<br>And, this one floored me, she said that all her time spent on the Internet has shown her that there are a lot of people who don't have a life. She said a lot of them try to make a big deal out of kinky sexual themes but she doesn't believe that hardly any of them have as good a time as we do without kinkiness. She also said again she sees how hard I am trying. But she said she feels she simply must have this time with me not around in order to get her thoughts straight.<br>She took time to explain some of her thoughts in a way she hasn't before. I told her that I was so glad she did that because it helps me so much when she explains things instead of keeping it in. And as long as I understand where she is coming from it gives me hope. Things are easier to bear when hope is there, but very difficult to bear when confusion and seeming senselessness dominate.<br>So I'll do what I have to do and long for the day when she is beside me fully.

I feel the 'forty' issue is relevent, too. Although, we should call it 'mid-life'. As in "Is this all life has to give me?". My wife is 2 years shy of 40, but she is questioning her whole life, decisions she has made, and where her future lies. She has said that none of her feelings for me is mid-life related, because she has felt this way for a while. <br>The mind-reading issue is quite a problem in my marriage, too. Things keep coming up like "You should have known that I don't like this". She admitted that she resented that I didn't help enough around the house. She also admits she didn't ask for any help. The difference with us was that she was not working. So I guess I expected things from her, too.<br>I also had the problem of saying I'd do something, and never get around to it.<br>We currently discuss that things will have to be different going forward. But, she is unwilling to discuss what. So, for now, if things need to be done, I do it NOW. No procrastination.<br>Steph, I would also like to know what your "hot and cold" question is. I guess I am as abnormal as Bruce.<br>

Bruce--first of all, I think it is great that she realizes that a lot of the internet junk is a waste and that you can have a REAL life. <br>Is she overwhelmed?? I know sometimes that I feel as though I have been so busy that I don't have a minute to think. I would just like some solitude and be able to think things through in peace. Hmmm---maybe that's how my husband feels. He really never gets a minute to himself, except for yard work and driving to work. HE has to be "on" at all other times. Maybe she is in a way suffering from a long term effect of that. Maybe she could either plan time at home by herself or time somewhere else by herself. I forget the ages of your kids, but maybe she needs a break from them for a minute too.

Bruce,<p>It sounds like she is making progress, hang in there. I can relate some to how your wife feels. I often feel that I don't know who I am because I have been a wife, mother, daughter for so long. It took me almost six months of effort to find the real me and what the real me wanted. I never stopped loving my H during this but there were times I wish I could have left to figure this out. It might have happened faster. I also knew that if I had asked for a separation at that time my H would have just said divorce. We all have to work with in our own situation. I think your wife is very fortunate to have a Hubby that would give that to her. Just keep up with what you are doing and keep talking to her. I know you can't read her mind so ask her questions. Ask alot of them and that way you won't miss anything. The hardest thing for me to do is ask my H to do things that I feel he should already see needing to be done. Like this morning, he knows that every sunday morning I rush around getting me and the kids ready and have asked him several time and told him that I need help. We have to be to church by nine and getting three kids and myself ready by then is hectic. At eight I finally went upstairs and asked him to help me. It took everything in me to bring myself to ask. I tend to go into what he calls marter mode where I just take it all on myself and then get mad at him. Good thing he had the right response and got out of bed and did as I asked without any complaint. I think it might be easier next time to ask but after years of the wrong response it's not easy to start. My prayers are with you Bruce.<p>Bill,<p>First, I'm not the one with the hot and cold question but I do know what she means by it. It's ok for my H to say no but it is not ok for me to say no. If he wants it we have it but if I want it then it depends on his mood. I also know that not all men are like this. Most take what they can get when they can get it because women have been taught to use sex. I don't think sex should ever be used to teach your spouse a lesson.<p>As far as a mid-life crisis goes it doesn't have to occur at fourty. It can happen whenever the person starts to think, where am I and am I where I want to be. Like I said to Bruce, I went through that. I couldn't do what your wives did because I was also worried about my H's depression, but I did question my life and where it was so far. Imagine haveing your third child and only being 27. Looking back and seeing all your friends graduating from medical school and law school and me being an at home mom with three kids. Don't get me wrong, I love being home with my kids and wouldn't trade it for the world but seeing my friends it did make me look and see some things that were missing from my life. Through the journey I also found things in my life that I had forgotten were there. I didn't find them overnight but I did find them.<p>I think the big key to this is being consistent from now. Let them see that you have changed. Do the things you say you will do and do them as fast as possible. You have less of a chance of not doing it if you do it right away. Every time my H does something good in the back of my mind I doubt that the next time will go as well. I have to constantly remind myself to judge him on each one and not prejudge him for any mixup he might make in the future. My prayers are with you too.<p>I guess I have rambled enough for now but my best wishes are with all of us to find happiness. <p>Steph