Thl, <BR>I came from very traditional roots, stay at home mom, Dad who worked, and yes, chores were divided by gender, mom inside,, dad out. <BR>X came from similar background, but his Dad did very little around the house, even on the outside. They were well off, hired help for major outsdie work, and Mom did the rest. It is still the same now even though Dad is retired. mom does it all. My x did not do much, his mom did everything. <P>Now, on to us. Married at 28, 29. Both worked full time. Both came into the marriage with discussions about sharing responsibilities fully. X lived at home before we got married, Mom still did everything. <P>He always said he would take care of it. I took him at his word. It seldom happened. I just got tired of asking. It was easier from a certain standpoint to just do it myself, at least I knew then it would get taken care of. <BR>So, I took care of all finances, took care of all childrearing,did all household chores, took care of a 4 acre farm, and also ran our business. He got up in the AM,worked a few hours, played RB, went out with his buddies, spent a lot of money,(we kept it sep), and was online a lot, sometimes 2-3 hours a day. (No wonder I was too tired for sex!!!!)<BR>I tried several approaches to get him more <BR>involved but mot much worked. He is now living in a one BR appt, with no responsibilities at all. I hope he at least washes his underwear instead of just buying new ones!!!!<P>------------------<BR>Susan

What a surprise, I have a strong opinion here.<P>The pendulum has swung too far. "Women's liberation" was supposed to be about choices. Instead of that, now a woman is supposed to do it all.<P>Stay at home moms are made to feel guilty that they aren't bringing home a salary, and many working mothers have to endure the horrendous guilt of dropping off their babies at daycare, because they think they "have" to work, that something is wrong with them that they would rather be home taking care of their kids.<P>Throw in this transition time, where men are learning to ease the domestic burden that is still placed on the female, and you have potential disasters.<P>I know these issues had an impact on my marriage - had I not been working, I may not have been divorced - but the flip side of that, if this divorce was unavoidable, if I had not been working, I would not be in the secure financial position I am in now.<P><BR> <P>

THL,<P>Your comments on the traditional functional household vs. modern equality household are very interesting. I suppose I'd like to fall somewhere in between both of those one day. If one person is far better at one thing (say husband at yardwork), then I don't see it a problem if he usually does that, or vice versa with say the wife and laundry. <P>I know I worried way too much about that kind of stuff and new nothing about the needs and all. Did you get those topics from an article of some sort? <P>By the way, I replied to you on my latest post.<P>Sue, again, how come we think so similar?? <P>Prayers, Dana<BR>

Dana,<P>if thl doesn't have anything, if he is "just brilliantly perceptive" on his own,<P>Read a Mars/Venus book - (a cursory glance at one is probably enough) it speaks to these issues. Was rewarding for me to have gut feelings I had validated.<P>Another very good source for a fresh view on "feminist" issues, is the Independent Woman's Forum - addresses these issues, from a perspective that doesn't fit in with NOW (which doesn't represent the vast majority of women). And if they have it archived, read Camille Paglia's interview about Monica Lewinski, Hillary Clinton...besides being wickedly funny, she is brilliant in her insight.

No books or articles, but comes from thinking and understanding where I come from, where my wife comes from, and where we went wrong, or had insurmountable expectations.<P>I was thinking about posting this under Domestic support emotional needs, as a response to maggie### when she posted a question about how domestic support is divided.<P>But also, the extremes with which I have had to deal make me wonder how and why some of these insurmountable differences come about.<P>Also, seeing (well, reading) alot of these posts, I see insurmountable expectations and differences which the individuals find are hard to solve. The reason they are hard to solve is not obvious, but learned, as a large percentage of emotional health is supported by one's surroundings. Learned from the expectations of marriage which are learned from many of our parent's marriages.<P>Humans learn and repeat, and Harley tries to get us to learn from a different perspective, so as not to repeat. It is like a lawyer's training, argue your case, now argue against your case. Then, examine the weakness and strengths of each.<P>JL is an expert at trying to get everyone to examine their relationship from the other's point of view. What this does is two fold, get you to understand how you are being perceived, and how you can change how you are being perceived, by understanding how you will be perceived with your initial reaction.<P>It is all about the philosophy of many different points of view can be right, and can be wrong, all at the same time.<P>what else is there to do on the 45-50 minute drive to work?<P>thl

Thl, <P>Speaking for myself, I enjoy to domestic responsibilities a great deal. I like to cook, maintain an orderly household, decorate, etc. I also like outside stuff too. I did not care who did what, just that it got done, and he was helping as well. I would have been happy to divide by "gender", but he wouldn't even mow the yard very often! My concept of a home and his were very different. I liked it well maintained, cleaned up, I was not a fanatic, but I liked order and neatness. He wouldn't have cared if the dishes were a mile high, as long as he had one to eat on!<BR>He did enjoy that those things were done, he just didn't want to do them. They were not important to him. <BR>Actually, not living with him in some ways has been easier. I don't have to pick up after him anymore. But I sure miss the feeling of someone to be close to. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Dana, <BR>Perhaps we were related in a different life!!! I think I am older than you, I am 45, soon to be 46, but you are right, we do think alike in a lot of aspects!!<P>------------------<BR>Susan

Honey: Yes, read one of those Dr Gray books a LONG time ago, maybe I'll dust it off and read it again!<P>THL: Ok thats it, your ex wife is related to my ex husband. Many of your horror stories, I have lived thru and are very similar. You actually reminded me about a lot of things I FORGOT. Looking back, I am kind of glad I don't have to live like that anymore!!<P>To Sue: Yes, I love all that domestic stuff too!!! All my friends called me June Cleaver . Age is nothing but a number, and we are who we are by our experiences in life. You have a great outlook on life (if I do say so myself) All in all, I still think I'm way too young for this "knowledge"!!!! <P>Prayers and hugs to all,Dana<P><BR>

Sue,<P>now what you said makes sense, in that your XH looked at the world the same way as his father did, and you looked at the world the way your parents did, responsible, hard working, get it done.<P>One thing I have learned, is that it is very important to meet potential spouse's parents, and observe them closely, listen to stories from the prospective spouse's family life. <P>I believed that I could change some of my STBX unhappiness. I actually tried to help her with her parents, etc. If their parent's are likeable and similar to you and your parents, you have a positive sign that difficult times will be surmountable.<P>Yes, one of our problems is that STBX does not want to own her own house, she loves living in old, rotten houses provided by her employer, where you can't do anything to the house, you can only make suggestions, and then hope there is enough money in the budget. I wanted our own house, and loved it when we did, a beach vacation home. After we sold ours, and then missed buying a better beach house, something went wrong inside the STBX's mind. I think it was partly that she saw owning her own house equating with not keeping her job. She also said that the stay at home moms in town are bimboes, and she didn't want to be one.<P>not sure how that works, but then again, I only now understand it now. I definately want my own house, and have it mostly clean and orderly. not always perfect, but respectable. STBX never threw anything out, but stuffed drawers full of crap, so that cleaning became impossible, and I gave up,<BR>except the dishes and the kitchen floor, and my laundry.<P>Heck, the lawn even gets mowed by someone from the school in the house she likes. At our beach house, I built decks, cleared land, had a garden, painted, really customized it.<BR>Living in someone else's house really stinks, and I hated it. <P>thanks for revealing a little bit more about your life. <P>take care.<P>thl

Sue,<BR> The weather in Seattle has been nice.Maybe a little rain tonight,but upper 70's for the weekend.<BR> You know,you're a lot like me.I've always been proud of owning my own home.Even though it's old,it's pretty well maintained,comfortable,and suits my needs.<BR> <BR>My stbx could of cared less,I think.She was always throwing her clothes,and shoes around,and really didn't like to do yardwork,or cook,or clean.Not that I'm crazy about cleaning,but it's has to be done,and it looks nice after you do it.<P> Do you still live on that 4 acres?Lucky for me,stbx is leaving me almost everything.She didn't want me to lose the house that I worked so hard on,for her,too) <BR> I have 3/4 of an acre with a two-story house that's in the city of Kent,but on a countryish road.Been here 15 years,probably will stay longer.<P> My W is what you would call a hopeless romantic,which if you read about one,they don't always do well in marriages.Real life bored her.Always reading the books with Fabio on the cover!<BR> Yeah,I guess I could of been a little more passionate,but I was one of those kind that showed their love by doing things for her.She said she needed more than that.<BR> Oh well,better luck next time? Take care. <P> ~~Murph

Yep, stiil have the acres...I love it out here. <BR>My home is important to me, he had very little pride in it, verymuch like you X. <BR>The guy I am dating now comes over and works around the outside.....now that is the way to my heart!!!!<BR>Supposed to be 100s here for the hydro races this weekend....HOT!!<P>------------------<BR>Susan

1) losing faith<BR>2) believing that a man can love me for life.

In the first marriage it was:<P>Believing the whole "What's wrong with ...." (fill in the blank). We're consenting adults and it's all out in the open. Everyone can see there is nothing wrong with that.<P>Being too young and immature to be married in the first place.<P>In the current one:<P>Having blind trust. Believing that we were invincible to infidelity. Not checking up on my H. Being complacent. Believing that love would keep us together forever and happiness would always be there. Love would prevail. All the stuff that fairy tales are made out of, but real life ruins with its real life demands.<P>Not having good enough communication skills between us. My H diffused arguments by making me laugh usually, but that meant the issues weren't resolved. We both told each other "I told you that a million times! What do you mean you didn't know that's how I felt?" Obviously we were not getting the message across effectively.<P>Sad to lose your marriage because of poor communication skills and too much trust.