TS, <P>I also have read some of your posts and felt you were attacking me as well. <P>Believe me, I was married longer than you, I cared deeply for my marriage, I believe my X did love me when we got married, and NO, I am not a slave to my hormones, I am an intelligent woman who wants the best for my life. I made some mistakes, so did he. <BR>I hope I have learned from my experience. If what you are doing with your life now is working for you and you are happy, then good for you. I have never attacked your choice. <P>But for you to insuinate that my marriage wasn't a real marriage, and that my "hormones" and my "sex loaded" friend are out to lunch because we want a second chance at a real relationship, well, you have a lot of growing to do. <P>Those of us that are posting here want to explore this second chance. Start another thread about how bad men are and how they only want to jump our bones and then marry us and leave us. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Susan

Sue,<BR>I do think YOU cared about your marriage. I don't think your ex loved you. <P>I don't think all men are bad. You've shown me that women are equally capable of jumping a man's bones without commitment in order to have their "needs" met. Someone in another thread mentioned the term "go through" (referring to dating), I think it was? How many men are you going to "go through" in your quest for self-knowledge? The I-don't-want-a-commitment-but-this-feels-good kind of attitude usually results in more pain for those who are actively looking for someone who wants to make a commitment. I think your advice is harmful.<P>honey.west,<BR>The shock you are feeling is not love. That is why "it" is not so shocking to me. While it is nice to have a guy writing you little notes and saying sweet things, anybody can do that, and lots do in the beginning. Ask yourself this. Is he the kind of person who would be willing to wipe your drool when you are old and gray and just had a stroke? What about if you gained a few pounds? These are things people don't really think about much when they are wrapped up in the rush. <P>"It is a great feeling TS". That's right. It is a feeling, but you and I disagree about something. I don't think love is a feeling. It is an action. I think Sue's husband did not love her because it is easy to get married when you have this "great feeling". It is harder to stay married when you are not feeling so great. That is when you find out if they truly do love you or not. He did not love her, IMO. Alot of you are hooked on this feeling, and that's ok. Nature made us this way for a reason. You don't want to think of all of us as rutting animals, but sorry, that is all it is in the beginning. Once you can get past that, you can see what they are really made of. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited August 13, 2000).]

Student,<BR>Again, we don't agree. I am sure you didn't love your H either, because you had an affair on him. Now, see how silly your response sounds??<BR>Of course you loved him, you made a bad judgement. My H loved me at one time. He made a bad judgement. <BR>I do not disagree that many marriages fail because of lack of commitment. But there are also many other circumstances. <BR>Many marriages stay together because of commitment alone, and they are hollow and unhappy marriages. <BR>If all I wanted was that, then I guess being in a relationship with someone who had no respect for me would be fine. <BR>Fortunately I want more. <BR>ALL of us here, I would suspect, felt that chemistry with our spouses at first. The key is making sure we always feel some of that with our spouses. It may feel different as time and experiences alter our relatioship, but when you talk to those who have been married happily for a long time, comments you will hear is "I enjoy being with them, I respect them, we talk a lot, we do things together, etc. They are meeting each others needs. <BR>Now getting back to the chemistry thing. I want another relationship. I hope what I have learned here will help me be a better partner. I have dated, as friends, with a few. Now I have met someone who I care about. I have taken the next step. I will take it slow and see what happens. But I am not afraid to try. I am single now, this is ok. It may not work, it may. But I will be more in tune with his needs this time, and he will be with mine. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

TS,<P>There you go again.<P>Well I touched on this once before, but I never got caught up in the one-night stands of the 70s, and I certainly haven't started it now in my forties. And I could have - then or now - imagine the prospects I had as an exceptionally attractive woman working among the highest military and political circles in Washington. It didn't take too long to figure out the men who wanted you for the night, or as a trophy, or the ones who were genuinely interested in the person I was - and that was because of the home life I had, the family I came from. That has influenced my outlook, just as your family has influenced yours. I picked the wrong man to marry - I see it now, but I didn't see it then. He absolutely did love me, but he was a product of his upbringing too. Just like your family, where your mother forgave your father every transgression, so did my ex's. So he assumed he could do the same to me - that I would be the revolving door his mother was. Our upbringing definitely affects our expectations. But I came from a family where spouses didn't hurt one another. I suppose if I had turned a blind eye, and let him fool around for a few years, we maybe could have been happy in our old age, but I had no intention of sacrificing myself or my sons' future happiness for the interim.<P>So TS, I disagree with you. It is love. The right kind of love - the kind I understand much better now, having been through everything I have been through. And I expect, in a decade, I'll understand even more.<P>It shouldn't be necessary for me to defend myself like this - you need to stop being so quick to judge everyone else through the bitterness you feel, and your limited marital experience - it is limited, TS. Your pain isn't close to the pain experienced by others married 20 years with families. I was married about the same amount of time as you - I know it would have been worse for me married longer. You may have more sexual experience than I, but that is hurting you - you seem jaded. Trivializing me is totally uncalled for.<P>I do enjoy this feeling I have - I didn't think I could have it again. The women in this thread are all feeling it, but are also having the natural self-doubts that come with the pain and suffering we have all been through.<P>There will come a time TS when you look at the positives in your life - you are obviously an attractive, bright woman. You chose a successful career path, to not only be self-supporting, but to enjoy wealth beyond most on this board. You do not have children to make the divorce pain worse, and contact with your ex permanent. You have a good life ahead of you. But right now it seems you are wallowing in your bitterness - it is destructive - you are lashing out, belittling others.<P>In older threads you have presented sound opinions on the perils of casual sex. And if you recall, I have agreed with you. But lately, you have just been meanspirited and condescending. I hope you can see that. It is only hurting you.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by honey.west (edited August 28, 2000).]

"Your pain isn't close to the pain experienced by others married 20 years with families."<P>I don't claim to know what they are going through. You don't know what my pain is like.<BR>For people who don't have a problem being married many times (children or not), I can only assume their pain is less than mine because they don't suffer any moral or emotional crisis by looking for someone new. They might even consider it fun. I don't.<P>Sue,<BR>I was not acting in a loving way when I cheated on my ex. My "affair" lasted a whopping two weeks. My husband never knew, as we had been living in separate states for about 4 months. I confessed because I loved him. He did not love me then, and never did. He stayed around as long as he felt good and everything was going his way, just like your ex. Good intentions (i.e. that so-called love feeling) don't count for a whole lot without the will to follow through.<P>What is the point of getting married if you believe love is mainly about having your needs met and you have no problems finding someone new? I'm not trying to cut you down. Lots of people are not ashamed to be divorced, and don't seem to suffer more than they would with any other kind of relationship breakup. Maybe you are one of those people. I'm not saying you didn't take your marriage seriously, but you have already stated that "till death do us part" and "for better or worse" isn't exactly what you are up for. Honestly, if you do get married again, you really need to change the vows to "as long as our needs are met", or "as long as we feel in love". At least that is honest.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited August 13, 2000).]

Honey west, Cinderella, Dana, 711, etc. <P>Just ignore TS. She obviously is just trying to create trouble. She has her views, and hopefully she will go somewhere else to voice them. <P>We have all been through hell. Trying to defend ourselves, once again to someone who knows absolutely nothing about our situations is ridiculous. <P>I am sure we all took our vows seriously, and walked through fire to save our marriages. After all, that is why most of us came here in the first place. <BR>But now it about starting our lives over, and whether that includes another relationship. The initial attraction we feel can be powerful, and that leads us to the real thing to talk about here, at this point in our lives are we ready for it?? <P>THLS' thread about how many to date, and how do you know about the rebound thing was a good one. <P>Like I said before, I dated 5 other men before I dated my friend now. And, I had known him for over 10 yrs before that. The relationship was always comfortable on a friendship level, I in fact encouraged him to date a friend of mine while I was still married!!<BR>I always thought he was nice, never had any romantic thoughts,until he asked me out and we went out a couple of times. It was like a light went on. It felt so comfortable!!<BR>Several months later, it stills feels great. He is a caring and gentle soul. He was in a long term marriage (27yrs) and wants it again someday. His kids are the same age as mine...we enjoy the same things, we are both settled and secure in our careers and our lives. <BR>Time will tell, but I am secure enough with this that I choose not to date anyone else, and to be with him on an emotional and sexual level. And after all the pain, it is great to know that life does go on!!<P>------------------<BR>Susan

Go ahead and ignore me. Yes, life does go on. If you end up with divorce #2, you might remember a few things I told you. Or not. I think you'll find getting a second divorce much easier than the first one. I suppose you'll never understand me and I'll never understand you, but I do wish for half a second I could forget my marriage as easily as you seem to have done.

TS, your pain is apparent.<P>Sue, <P>I had the same kind of reaction, that the "chemistry" started after the friendship developed. That never happened to me before. It is the most mature relationship I have had. We had the time to discover we liked one another, and had almost identical tastes in things, and similar dreams, before we "took the plunge".<P>And I explain part of the giddiness I feel, is that 1) I never expected I would feel this way again - it was a surprise; 2) I never expected to find someone I had so much in common with, similar tastes, same dreams for retirement (egads that makes me feel old); 3) I appreciate it now, and understand it is special - I took things for granted before. Not now!<P>Sometimes I would think, isn't it a shame we didn't meet 15 years ago - things would have been so different. But then I realize, we wouldn't be the people we are now, and I wouldn't have my children. So all in all, I guess I am just very thankful for what I have. It is a nice "place" to be. <P>

TS,<P>if you notice, I stopped responding to your posts along time ago. In other chat rooms, I always notice that there is one or two people who want to join, but can never make the connection because of the personal abilities do not match the desires. That the internal thoughts / personality inhibits the acceptance. You appear to be holding on to the sour grapes gets some attention, looking for the eventual: "see I told you so" response for someone with whom you can console yourself.<P>TS, you made mistakes, i made mistakes, however, I will grow from it, learn from it, and be a better person, I will help other people learn to realize their mistakes, so that they don't end up in the same place as I am. I will help them make a better life by SUPPORTING them to see different perspectives I have learned. It is all about seeing different perspectives, and picking the best one for your growth. <P>Nellie gave me the book that answered questions I have had for 15 years. From her questioning and research comes great wisdom for me. I never stopped searching for the answers, but when I find them, I am relaxed and happy. <P>Hopefully you can find your answers so that you can get beyond the jaded responses. best of luck to you for picking your best perspective.<P>thl

THL, <BR>Well said. <P>Honey West, <P>I agree about how maturity and our own growth make us look at this "second chance" differently. <BR>During the affair I felt very alone and unattractive. My X was seeing a younger woman and even though I had never had a problem with my self esteem up till this point, it made me feel old.<BR> It was after the fog of pain had lifted and I started living my life again that I realized that there where others out there, who had been through similar situations, and I wasn't so bad after all! <BR>THL, I also did the divorce care thing through a church. It was simliar to here, others living and making it through just what I had. <BR>I also did not expect to feel that I am feeling now. I had always felt that "spark" with my x, but didn't think I could ever feel it for another. But I do now. It is real and I will give it the time to grow. <P><P>------------------<BR>Susan

Me too, Sue,<P>I felt the same unnattractiveness - my x was with a teenager. I was dumbfounded - he jumped at the chance to be with someone young - there was nothing else to her - one reason he had the opportunity, was never in my wildest dreams would I have considered a teenager a threat. <P>And I too, always felt that spark with my x. But then - frankly, his choice of a fling was a barrier for reconciliation, when I thought, could I ever let him touch me again, knowing he would always compare me physically to a teenage girl? How could I compete or make myself more desirable, when the problem was my age? That was very hard for me.<P>Since the divorce, this was the the ONLY man I have dated - but part of it was not wanting to date without purpose - I turned down many men who asked me out. There was always something there, that I knew there was no chance of a future, so why bother? My grandmother gave some sage advice - "Don't start something you can't finish." That is why I highly recommend the route I took - keep it simple, until you know them better, but trust your heart when you know its right. <P>I do feel very lucky. Oh, and it was the DivorceCare group that helped me so much too. An excellent program, if you get a good group.<p>[This message has been edited by honey.west (edited August 28, 2000).]

THL - is your thread on how many to date and how to recognize a rebound relationship still around?<BR> <BR>***<P>I'm in no hurry to make any new commitments. I was with my x in a marriage 17 yrs and legally married to him for almost 21. I'd love to do that and more with another man. I'd love for my children to have a male role model at home. But it has to be the right guy.<P>Right now, though, I'm really struggling. While this guy and I met on a blind date, we had talked on the phone for a number (8-12) hours before we met. Talked a couple of times before we ever decided to go out. So far we seem to have shot pretty straight with each other. Asked tough questions and given tough answers. <P>But I've never felt this kind of chemistry before. Really confusing. It's not like me to want a man this strongly. But I'm smart enough to see that he isn't perfect (which I take as a good sign) though I've only known him 3 months. After all I didn't date anyone for almost 5 years. However, we know that for the time being, when he brings me home, he doesn't need to go in. <P>So, Saturday night while we were sitting in his car, I finally decided there were a few things I needed to get off my chest. I finally told him I was really confused. Then we had a discussion about not knowing what was going on and not knowing where we were headed. Apparently all the confusion is mutual and the best thing to do now is "wait and see." <P>This is one of those cases where I wish I had a crystal ball. I'm in a place where I simply have to give it time and listen to God and my heart. And sometimes He takes too long. <P>I didn't have a rebellious adolescence. Is this what it would have felt like? I do worry about setting an example for my children. I know they'll ask me, "Mom, did you...." and I want to give them good answers and guidance. Or does this feel any more acute because the privileges I once had were taken from me? Shouldn't maturity make it easier? <P>You know something? It just hit me that I would be mortified if my daughter was a teenager and on the internet discussing her boyfriend with all her girlfriends. But here I am with my big quandries. Life is too weird.<P>Also, I wonder how many men are lurking. <BR>What would they make of all this feminine angst? Frankly, I'd be interested in lurking into their masculine angst. Would be interesting to see how they suffer and what they say to each other about the same issues. But I don't wish to hear them on this thread.<P>So, ladies, what to do? Am I too adolescent?<BR>Do I still have my head on straight?<p>[This message has been edited by cinderella (edited August 15, 2000).]

<BR>Cinderella, <P>As far as I am concerned, you are doing everything right, you aren't jumping into things, you are analyzing everything and talking about it with him. How many times did you do that as an adolescent? I never did - that is why we all have a much better shot at this now.<P>I don't think anyone can put it better than Sue did in her posts. <P>But, as far as your kids, frankly, I have no intention of telling my boys I had sex before marriage. None of their business I say! And I'll let them know that too. Figure my sex life is taboo (and frankly, I doubt they would ever want to know - the gross-out factor, you know?) <P>Enjoy the good feelings you are having, and that you can feel this way again. You have your trust that the Lord is guiding you to do the right thing, now you need to trust yourself to know when you can trust him. That sounds pretty hokey, but you know what I mean.<P><BR>

Hello ladies,<P>I have been away for the weekend and I have a few comments on this post.<P>To Cinderella and Gina- Follow your HEART. Don't lose it because things didn't turn out well the last time. Only you have to live with your decision and if you must rely ever on others opinions, BE IT SOMEONE that you trust, has a life comparable to yours and your views, and that you feel is happy and successful. Be it someone that you admire. If it feels good, it feels good. Don't look TOO far into the future, you know why??<P>IF you look TOO FAR into the future, you wind up with a lot of empty YESTERDAYS. Take it one day at a time and one day , you'll be where you want again. And guess what so will I.<P>There is nothing wrong with wanting to be married again, quite honestly, so do I. <P>Now to TS, you slammed me in a dating thread months ago on General Questions because you felt I made a bad decision about dating. You have slammed me a few times since, and I am not one to sit around and listen to nonsense, not after I did it for 11 years.<P>This site is out here to HELP one another. Its not for controversy. Its for people to learn how to SAVE their marriage and guess what, if we can't save the last one, we are still working on improving ourselves because many of us will go on to marry again.<P>No one ever said that your way is wrong either. But lets not forget, weren't you in a relationship where the first husband cheated horrible, something like 25 women or something. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong. Either way, as far as I know, your first hubby cheated, and my my, you went on to marry again. OK so it didn't work out. So you cheated, BIG DEAL, I have had issues with commitment the second time around in just dating but I am still strong enough (SO FAR) to do the right thing.<P>We are all human. We all feel pain. We have all been in pain for many months. This sight is to help each other.<P>You always post controversial replies to the topic of dating, sex or second marriages. I rarely see you post anything thats actually helpful or lend a fellow friend on here a prayer.<P>I am sorry that you and I dont' see eye to eye, but I will say that you come off as very bitter and very hurt. You have even told me you that someone will laugh at my misery someday.<P>Ultimately, we all believe in different standards, different levels of commitment and even a different level of spirituality.<P>If you want to be single the rest of your life, go ahead. It may be cool now but when your old and lonely with no children and no one is around, thats when it will be hard.<P>If you think we are stupid for dating, we already know that, and we don't always think with our hormones, many of us struggle because we have kind hearts and are loving people.<P>We're all human. We all make mistakes. No one is perfect. Not us and not you either. This site has literally saved my life more than once, and I have made many good friends, a few who I have met in person and a few more that I will meet.<P>I am here to help anyone who asks for my help and anyone who wants to email me, I always write back. <P>I am here because I believe in marriage, commitment and faithfulness and I don't care about anything else really but learning from my past and becoming a better person.<P>Every marriage is different. Every affair is different. Some of us were with our first love since we were teens, and as a teen you don't know much about real love, but guess what, many of us have raised children, stood by our man thru thick and thin and never cheated and we do this because we know what true love is. <P>Its just hard to think with your heart and not your mind and thats why we ask the questions we do. <P>To my other friends who have offered me prayer for my sick daughter, I'm sorry for interrupting the post, but I have made a commitment to myself to not be treated with disrespect after I tolerated it for so long before with my ex.<P>This site is to help each other and if people can't put out some positive efforts than I too will try my hardest to ignore it because that kind of negativity will only bring you down hard in this world.<P>To Sue, you have a wonderful outlook on life, and I have always admired your views. OK its because I am so similar but guess what, I know about 25 women, maybe a handful from this board but moreso in real life who believe in the same things.<P>Its ok for all of us to be different. Its ok for us to disagree, but its not ok to hurt people's feelings in the process. We have ex spouses to do that for us.<P>Sending prayers, hugs and best wishes to all,<BR>Dana<BR>Back to add a PS, honeywest I like your views as well on this subject.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by DanaB (edited August 14, 2000).]

Cinderella, <BR>It is a good thing to take it slow...we all want that loving relationship in our lives, but we can take our time and make sure it is right first. As far as the"cooking" goes, we are all consenting adults, if we feel a connection with this person, and feel comfortable enough in our own growth, then we can decide if it is right for us or not. <BR>Honey, <BR>Boy, I can really relate to what you said...I was intimate with my x after, and I did have feelings that I was not as nice looking as what he had. But you know??? I was always there for him, even with his belly and his age-foibles. I never thought of those things. He was my H, and I loved him despite that. <BR>The OW in his life told her soon to be X that my H was "too old and too fat" about a month ago. It was after they had broken up. I wonder how my X would feel if he heard that from his "true love"!!! I will never tell him....<BR>Dana, <BR>I feel the same way. This is a place to help eachother, and while we may not always agree, and some of us are at different places in their life, we can help each other. I remember well the first time I came here, the pain and loneliness I was feeling. I felt then I would never love again, I would live out my life alone, and no one would ever care about me again. Almost three years later, I can say with certainty that my life is just beginning!!<BR>My new friend is ready for more. He says he has known me long enough (10yrs) and has been alone enough (3 yrs) to be ready for another crack at marriage. He says he feels none of the concerns that I do, and whenever I am ready, he will be here waiting. We have discussed each others needs, and he read "His needs, her needs" as well. <BR>So, I am enjoying this wonderful new relationship, I am still taking it slow but not letting anything pass me by. <BR>The maturity I feel at this stage of my life gives me a better perspective on what is important to me. While I never felt like I was in any "mid life" thing, maybe this whole divorce experience has been my midlife thing!!!<BR>Now, life is asking me to try again, to truly experience love again, and know now what it takes to make it work for the rest of my life!! <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Cinderella and Sue,<P>Sounds like you two are doing very well.<P>Sue, you sound as though you have this new life well thought out and under control.<BR>Congratulations.<P>Cinderella, (I love that name here, its sounds so bizarre to be here.)<P>You are doing just fine, at least you have asked the questions, and got some responses.<BR>I would keep the conversation going to discover as much about HIM as you could to be satisfied that you could keep him or not.<P>And yes, if you never experienced (as I have not either,) it might be truly scary, or it might be something we never had because of our history.<P>I said it before, although not correctly, in the male abuse question you posted, has he met your girl friends yet, and what do they think of him? Your friends usually have similar interests and thoughts as you, and can give you a good read on him. <P>As far as the kids, try to get your X to take the kids more, so you have more time alone.<BR>I know that sounds bad as your X is a monster, figuratively speaking, but its way too early to let them see and know, etc.<P>So keep up the good work, ask yourself the questions every day, what is there you don't like about him, and can you live with it.<P>If you don't come up with anythingvery big,<BR>over time, it can be real.<P>I have always thought that you could sit down near him at the park or somewhere fun, without introducing him to your kids, and then just have him say hi to your kids, and<BR>see if he interacts well with the kids.<P>BTW, how old are they?<P>thl<P><BR>good luck.<P>

Pardon me for a moment here Sue and Cinderella from your chemistry analysis, but TS, this man is VERY upset about your posts on here. I know you said or at least meant that not all men are bad, or however the heck you put it, but MY GOD this is just rediculous you jumping all over people.<P>YOU don't know what Sue, or Cinderella or Honey.West or Dana or however else on here is going through YOU ASSUME everything...And Assumptions can kick your butt!<P>I for one LOVED MY WIFE DEARLY, NO AFFAIRS, NO BAD WORDS, we jsut didn't make it. Maybe I did let go to easily, maybe I am a "MAN" but by GOD I will tell you this, I am a Decent Man To!<P>I come on this site for support, I have fun some to, but you know what, it is MY release away from always venting to my friends where I live! These people are wonderful to me, cause I treat them with respect and I care for them! So if you wanna to tear down others on here then find another site that loves this kind of talk!!!!!!!!!! <P>I am NOT perfect (after all I am a man)...but by god I will tell you this, I hate generalizations about "men" as a group. Not every man in this world is a a jerk. I was compeletly faithful to my wife, my next wife when I DO GET MARRIED again I will be equally as faithful and treat her with respect and LOVE HER TO DEATH...and be IN LOVE WITH HER TOO!<P>You just got me as mad as I probably have ever been after reading your posts!<P>Hopefully will see something nice come out of your mind again, and I will be the first one to apologize to you, but not sure you can do that!<P>Sorry Sue and Cinderella for ruining this thread, but that just got my craw! and it got it like I have never been mad before!<P>Sorry again to you all to for venting so loudly. I usually sort my thoughts out before I talk, but NOT this time!<P>Drew <p>[This message has been edited by Blue Drew (edited August 14, 2000).]

Sorry again Sue and Cinderella! I know this isn't what you two intended for this! BUT I had to, for ME and only ME, VENT about TS's posts!<P>Drew

Thanks for all the support....<BR>Ok guys, Cinderella asked you a question....<BR>Do you also go through this wondering about women you are dating stuff?? <BR>Do you also feel that chemistry and are unsure how to handle it??<BR>Do you ever feel unattractive to the opposite sex, and do you care??<BR>When do you start trusting those feelings and allowing yourself to see if there is more there??<BR>Just thought it would be good to get a mans' perspective here. I don't think men discuss this stuff with one another as freely as women do, do you????<P>------------------<BR>Susan

Sue, as soon as I have a date, I'll let you know. <P>Generally, I have never been one to ask other guys about dates, although I do remember a discussion i was listening to with some of my guy friends, about women, and they did discuss the women, not the feelings they had inside. I learned alot, although i did not know the other women.<P>it will be a long time for me, because I think the ones that I would have a successful relationship with are all taken.<P>thl