Sorry, but I have to note....TheStudent is at it again (all of us baaaaaaaaadd people who have started dating again) on Nellie's thread: "It's like Playing Russian Roulette".<P> Posted by TheStudent:<BR> "Sometimes I think that those who are out there dating again (and happy about it) just don't bond all that deeply. Therefore, having<BR>their marriage end isn't all that disturbing. Just like the spouses who left them.<P> Also posted by TheStudent:<BR>"Another thing that cracks me up, is how so many think they know "so much more" now, and how they can make better choices. UM...they thought that when they got married the first time. For some reason, they think that if<BR>they just find the "perfect" person, that everything will be great." <P> I'm sorry for putting this in this thread, probably very poor netiquette...but I am beyond ticked off at her. I have posted a reply to her in Nellie's thread. <BR> <P> Mynabird

Greetings friends,<P>To reply to Mynabird, anyone who has seriously took time to try Plan A, or Plan B or attemtp to save their marriage does have the right to say they are smarter.<P>Many of us married young, or fell in love young. Each day we grow older, wiser and we learn from mistakes and experiences.<P>Unfortunately, life's lessons' don't come easily. Generalizations are not fair.<P>TO stand up for some men, I have met 3 absolutely WONDERFUL men since this break up. I can't believe it but they truly are the greatest. They show respect to women at all times, are wonderful fathers and are FRIENDS that would do anything for me and the feeling is mutual. It does help to meet some positive influences like this because its just too easy to point fingers and lump all men in one category. Its truly not the case.<P>Same goes for women. Many many of us get called bitter money hungry ex wives just because we divorce our spouse for an affair. Its ridiculous.<P>Lastly , I never thought my marriage would be perfect and I never thought it was a perfect situation, I had to make the best of a bad situation and made great progress along the way. I do believe I deserve better and won't tolerate unfaithfulness EVER in my life. <P>This is a place for healing, growth and friendship. I personally don't mean to offend anyone, I am just getting a little irritated by some of the remarks getting thrown around. <P><BR>Peace, happiness and prayers,<BR>Dana<BR>

Ok,everyone.......I just want to add my 2 cents in!!<P>I don't like the fact of putting men into a "Men category"....it is not fair,just like it would be very unfair to group all women into the same!<P>I for one think that the Men here on these boards so be comended for even beining here!!<P>It is not easy or I at least I don't think for many men to "Talk" about "Feelings" and the things that they have contributed to the down fall of their marriages!!<P>(I could be wrong here,but I actually think that it is even harder for men more so then women to have to admit that they are not the perfect spouse!......I do believe that it is harder on there egos then women.....)I could be wrong just an opinion... <P>I have the most highest respect for each and everyone one of them!!......they are here for understanding and support......<P>I have no doubt what so ever that each and every one of them will find happiness again and will make it work the next time around!<P>We have all grown from our experiences....and all of our pain......and that will help us for the future!!<P>Just wishing you all the best!!<P>Gina <P>------------------<BR>"If we deny love that is given to us,if we refuse to give love because we fear pain or loss,then our lives will be empty,our loss greater!"-----Anonymous----

Sorry Cinderella and Sue, I also must interrupt this post, to say a few things to The Student if she is still out there.<P>I can't belive what has happened on this thread. I thought this was suppose to be a supportive site. I know you have decided not to date for many reasons, but many others, including me, have decided to try again. You know my story, we have gone back and forth a few times on our views, but you really are tearing us all apart now. Why?<BR>Do you think your replys are helpful? Do you enjoy getting a rise out of us? <P>I appreciated many of your replys in a thread I started a while back. But, when I decided to go with what I thought was right for me, that was the end of your support. I thought you believed in unconditional love. To me, that means being supportive of someone even if we don't agree with them. Isn't that right? I know we are not friends but we are two people here on a divorce support site. Shouldn't we be supporting each other not tearing each other apart.<P>I notice that you have not responded to the latest posts regarding what you have said. I think you are entitled to your opinions. You definitely do not like to hear us all talk about dating, feeling chemistry, etc., so why do you reply to these posts? When you see the topic, why don't you just move on to one where you feel the topic is more to your liking. Like some of the others above have said, it is ok to have different feelings and to come to a post and try to give us some advice to help us from making mistakes. But you are no longer giving advice, you are just attacking us. You said one thing in a prior post that I have to question. You said that you wanted us to keep our male sons away from your future daughters. Have you changed your mind about being celibate? I guess you might be considering adopting but I was curious when you said that. <P>Thanks to all the others for your replies. I really can relate to everything you all are saying. <P>BTW, my relationship is going GREAT!!!!!

Okey Dokey people!<P>I liked what 711 wrote on here! Thank you for taking time to write and not react the way I did! I am with you, EVERYONE DOES have the right to post what they want and voice their opinion, but I also have the right to thrash out too, Freedom of Speech works fro EVERYONE, so "the student" hope you can take our "freedom of speech" as well, cause you kind of have to, and while noticing you just post to get "a rise" out of people and you DON'T reply back, well I guess that speaks for itself!<P>Thanks 711, couldn't have said it better, and obviously if you read my post I didn't say it better, it is a GOOD thing I edited it!<P>Anyway, back to the main topic at hand! I for one KNOW that I was 100% in love with my STBX, she was totally in my heart, soul and mind! I really do miss her, but SHE wanted this NOT ME. So I CHOOSE to move on! And I WILL move on!<P>I do beleive that we all can move on, find happiness with another woman (or man) cause even though we have the bad/grumpy days, and we may not feel "loved" we know deep down in our hearts that we are!<P>When I am ready to get back into the committed relationship again, and I WILL, that woman will feel 100% loved, cared for, supported and she will see it, feel it and hopefully like it!<P>I am not afraid of dating at all, sure we all have this feeling of newness when we go out again, but you know that can remain if you keep up with the little things, the romance, the emotional needs and being the supportive person that you were when you started dating again!<P>I don't chalk up my pending divorce to the lack of effort, in MY case, there were NO affairs, we just simply went through so many traumatic moments almost from day 1 of our married lives. My father passed away 3 weeks after we were married, there were some minor family issues, and then my mother passed away in 99, sure those are things that can be controlled with the right support from your spouse and "outside help" But you know what it hurt us! Much more then that too<P>Anyway, I DO feel and KNOW that I will again be very very happy being in a commited relationship/married again! Cause I know that I am the kind of person that can and will provide for "her" and NOT just financially, I mean all the things aside from that! Emotional, physical, and always be there to support them!<P>I care alot about people in every walk of life, doesn't matter about their race, religious belief's or political affiliation. If I care for that person NONE of that matters, it is what is inside their hearts and minds that ultimately matters most!<P>So not sure that this equates to what your looking for Cinderella and Sue, BUT I know that I WILL again be very happy, I have dated again, and I LOVED IT. Coming away from this divorce, I didn't feel like I could attractive to women, but I have recieved the feeling again that I am indeed attractive and by god it feels WONDERFUL to be told the little "warm fuzzies" Does a body and heart and mind good!<P>Someday again...I WILL BE MARRIED...I already miss it...I however will be very careful this time! Ya tend to be a bit more "cautious" At least I am! <P>Drew

I think what really ranckles us is not that we may disagree on a subject, but when we are personally attacked for it. <P>TS has a strong belief and is living it, and while it might not be what I would choose for myself, it is working for her and I respect her decision.<P>But the personal affronts she has made to many is what the problem is. <BR>For someone to tell me that I never had much a of a commitment to my marriage, or that I am an animal, or that my x never loved me (believe me, he did) really bothered me, and I feel I am pretty far down the road to being over it all (if you ever truly are). <BR>So how would that effect somone here who maybe has not healed?? That is the problem with personal attacks. <P>In an emotionally delicate situation as these boards can be, when we come here to vent and for help, we need to be able to without anyone attacking us. TS, the best way to approach this thread would have been to state your opinion about waiting, and let it go at that. <P>I believe it is a natural thing for humans to want to be in loving relationships. Most divorced people DO remarry, and it is not because we want to go through hell again and another divorce. It is because we like the togetherness of marriage, we like the idea of supporting one another, we like the idea of growing old with someone. <P>I will be the first to admit, while I loved my H, I did take my marriage for granted. I did not put the effort into making it the best it could be. We just kinda got into the life mode and did not take the time to nuture each other. Both of us did. <BR>While I would never have had an affair, I did not meet his needs.<P> I do not excuse him, but I have learned that in order for a marriage to truly be what it can be, it takes work!! Not just unconditional love, but making sure that person knows you are there for them, wanting to meet their needs, and putting your marriage first, above all. <P>I want that second chance, somewhere down the road. I will take my time,and the next time, I will be more prepared to give it my all. <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Susan

Hi Sue,<P>I know I took my husband for granted too, and there were so many things going on in our lives, I thought he was thinking the same thing I was. I missed the fun times as much as he did, but felt that the family responsibilities were taking a front seat, for the time being, to our time. <P>As undersexed as I was, it wouldn't have occurred to me to seek it elsewhere. I touched on it in another thread, that it would have been easier for him (and God knows cheaper) to replace the housekeeper in me, rather than the lover. <P>At one point, I thought my big mistake in my marriage was not understanding my husbands need for the playful sex we used to have - but it ran much deeper. Even at the beginning (of the end), when I sensed something was wrong, and would slip on Victoria's Secret outfits to start something, I would get rebuffed. It didn't take long for the rejection to take a horrible toll on my ego.<P>I will say, one of the honorable things my ex did, was when he started sex with her, he stopped it with me. And for that I am very thankful - his warped sense of love, and ability to separate sex from love. But it sure hurt.<P>With hindsight, I can see we should never have gotten married, it was such a fundamental difference between us - heck, now I see how much he loved me, that he remained faithful to me for as long as he was. His idea of love was flawed, and so deeply ingrained with the way he was raised, that I could never change it. Nor could he change me. In that respect we were both very strong people - but a total moral mismatch.<P>A very important lesson I learned from my divorce, is to never let the romance fade for me, or the sex for my partner. I didn't understand that it can never take a back seat.<P>I do now. I honestly don't believe it would have saved my marriage, perhaps delayed the inevitable, but it sure made for a herd-earned and bittersweet lesson for next time around.<P>And I too, was happier married than I ever was single. I don't fear choosing the right partner, because I do know what I want, I know what is important, and I don't think anyone could go through much more self-analysis than I did. I think maybe it bordered on psychotic obsession at one point.<P>I have all these talks with my new man, I don't fear telling him anything, or asking him anything. It is more open and honest than I ever had before, because I understand the stakes.<P>My analysis, is you take everything you have learned, all the experiences good and bad, mix them all together, and you are lucky enough to find someone who somehow, through their own life experience has come to the same conclusion, and BINGO! Fireworks and chemistry... Its a good feeling.<BR>

Sue,<P>that is exactly why I use personal examples of how I have interacted/ would have interacted, so that I don't tell people how they should be or feel, I tell them mypoint of view and why.<P>That is why I use lots of personal examples, so that people get to know who i am through seeing my actions, and my thoughts.<P>my college motto was "Acta, non verba"<BR>easy translation, "deeds, not words"<P>I hope to offer questions, and possible answers to others, but try to not tell them what to feel or think.<P>I make that mistake occassionally, but hopefully, not too many times.<P>thl<P>

[Quote[ I don't chalk up my pending divorce to the lack of effort, in MY case, there were NO affairs, we just simply went through so many traumatic moments almost from day 1 of our married lives. My father passed away 3 weeks after we were married, there were some minor family issues, and then my mother passed away in 99, sure those are things that can be controlled with the right support from your spouse and "outside help" But<BR>you know what it hurt us! Much more then that too. [/Quote]<P>Drew,<P>are you sure that the outside influences of your family was the biggest contribution to your marriages demise? Sometimes, I have a tough time believing that. Is that what your STBX would really, honestly say?<P>thl

Hi THL,<P>Well no your right, I maybe "mis-spoke" there with that reference. My point is/was that when my mother passed away, left me/us a financial mess (I felt like it was my job to clear up the mess really) and yet still grieve her loss, while being so mad at my mother that I, by self admission, pulled away from not just my wife, but also my sisters too! NO that isn't the only issues we had, but it sure didn't help! So I guess to say that it was the biggest problem...I will rebutt that and say no, it wasn't the biggest problem.<P>But I will say this...While I was battling my depression (this sounds like such an excuse, this "depression card" and my apologies in advance) But while battling this depression, getting help and FINALLY overcoming it with meds, counseling and inner self drive, my STBX found her "rescue" if you will in co-workers, friends, and she got so use to doing it that way that when the night came that she said "Drew I can't stay in this relationship anymore" that she was sold on the fact that I wasn't able to provide for her anymore in and Emotional Needs way!<P>In NO WAY will I ever ever pin our divorce just on this, or her, or me, it was a culmination of many things and a distancing of personalities and ways of life. But also a loss of "in-love" qualities too. I still Love her, and I am sure I always will, but "in-love" just seemed to falter for us both!<P>Drew<p>[This message has been edited by Blue Drew (edited August 15, 2000).]

Drew:<P>Well, I needed to say something to The Student. I'm glad you thought it was well said. <P>This whole dating thing is very confusing. I've decided to date but it hasn't been worry free. That's why I like to post and read what people have to say about it, good or bad. Unfortunately, it started to turn ugly. I hate to see that happen. Hopefully, this will turn back around. <P>It's funny, my therapist told me I was codependent and I thought he was crazy. An example he gave was how I interact in my group therapy. I really become concerned when some of the "quiet" people in the group don't seem to get a chance to talk or if people end up arguing about something. That is how I started feeling about the direction this thread was taking, so I was trying to make things better. Is that a good or bad thing? I guess that would require a new thread. HMMMM.<P>Honeywest: I think you are so right about the importance of maintaining a healthy sexual relationship. I think one of the reasons I dived so quickly into my current relationship is because we have so much chemistry. I never really had that with my x. He had a lot of good qualities and I thought that would be enough for me. I know now that I should never have gotten married. But, I was one of those stupid people who thought it was expected of me at the time, and besides the invitations were out, gifts had been received, an how could I call if off now. But once I committed to the marriage, I felt I had to stick to my vows. I did have a hollow and unhappy marriage but I would have stayed in it. But, my x couldn't anymore. I don't take the entire blame for it's failure, but I take the lion's share. I feel so bad that I married him for the wrong reasons. But, we do have two wonderful chilren and some good memories to look back on, so it was not a total loss. <P>Sorry for the digression. Just a little background as to why when the sparks were flying with this guy, I seized the moment. Now I have to be extremely careful not to go to the other extreme and be blind to faults because of the chemistry. <P>Oh Boy. I am hopeless.<BR>

711,<P>Well I think that we both needed to speak up. I have absolutely NO problem with anyone and everyone speaking their minds! TS, you or Me, doesn't matter. And actually some of what TS has said on here makes perfect sense, I wasn't trying to attack her as a person, but I was taking offense to her approach!<P>I to hope that this all takes a turn for the better...actually MUCH BETTER!!!!!<P>I told her that I would be the first apologize should she stop attacking personalities and be more general with her opinions.<P>It just bothered me that I felt lumped into the "typical male" group...that is how I felt. Sure I am not perfect and yes I have my stupid time and could be constrewed as a "typical male" but I am not just after a piece of tail in life...I am wanting to eventually find a loving, caring woman with a great heart!<P>This whole dating thing IS scarey! Totally!! I however won't be the kind of person that will just go to work, then go home and lock my door until it is time to get up for work again!<P>If I again have to go through some more pain to find that "right" woman for me! I will find that woman.<P>So I did read TS's posts several times, and other ones that she has posted. And she does make alot of sense. I may jump people sometimes, but I still learn from them too!<P>anyway, I am off my "soap box" and back to the normal Drew self, I just also needed to address some issues that TS brought up in my mind!<P>I have always been a sorter of thoughts before I react. That drives some people nuts that I don't get into issues right away, but that is how I am....BUT, on occassion I lock and load and shoot off my mouth right away, that is what I did the other day with TS!<P>Feel like a slight "heal" but I needed to speak up!<P>So to you all, have a great day <P>Drew

Hi 711,<P>I know what you mean, but I also think the pain we have all gone through, and the bad choice(s) we made before, puts more than the usual self-doubt in our heads - that we don't trust our instincts enough. I think we get panicky more than we need to be. At least I know I did. When I first got physical, I was kind of sick about it, like, why did I do that? Am I rebounding? What if my ex turns around now, maybe the divorce will change him? How could I complicate things like that? But time is making it a sound choice. The more time that passes, the more objective I can be.<P>I just don't think that any of us, having been through what we have been through, is going to be tooooo stupid. I really don't. I know we all have a basic faith and trust in men (or women) in general, which is good we never lost - we just have to learn to trust ourselves more. And I'm doing it now, but I was a mass of self-doubts at the beginning. Even now, if it doesn't work out between us, which is a real possibility, I won't regret any of it. Nothing in this relationship was ever ugly.<BR>

Honey west, <P>I think that is the key here. I also have not lost trust on others, of which I am grateful. It would be a long road to recovery if that were the case for me. I think ALL of us, men and women, go into marriage and relationships wanting it to be the best it can be. <BR>I am now working on myself, and ME trusting again. I have now met a wonderful man, who obviously took his vows seriously, he was married for 27 yrs! I trust him. I feel he would never hurt me deliberately. Now I have to trust my feelings. <BR>That will take time. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Everyone,<P>I see this thread has progressed a full two pages without my presence. My ears are burning! I haven't replied back because it is clear that my opinions/values are completely different than the people who are posting here. <P>--A couple things though, before I go...<BR>I work with all men. I certainly don't consider them all "pigs". I do hear how alot of them talk about women,though. Just last week I opted out of a lunch excursion with a group of them because one of them was *****ing about his wife (he has never shown his wife much respect), and another was complaining about all the planning his soon-to-be-wife was doing for their upcoming wedding. Of course, he is not participating in the planning. He just wants to gripe. This is considered "cool" and ok with the other guys, I guess. I'm the only one who tells them how uncool it is for them to be slamming their wives/girlfriends. The other guys don't say a d@mn thing. Do I need to mention the percentage of men to women on this forum? The percentage of women is much, much higher than men. So, my conclusion is that (in general) women put a great deal more thought into their relationships than men do. That doesn't mean they are "bad people" or "pigs". It does mean (to me) that they (in general) are not as trustworthy because they aren't doing the work. Harley happens to agree with me on that point (or I agree with Harley, whatever). Check out "Why women leave men". The vast majority of divorces are initiated by women. <P>--I haven't changed my mind about being celibate. I plan to adopt, probably from China. A place where they discard their daughters. There will be no weekend visitation mess for me. I do agree that children need male role-models though. That will be a challenge, but at least it will be on my terms. <P>At the heart of all of this is that I don't think there is any point in being married if divorce is so easy and so many people have few moral or emotional problems finding someone new after a divorce, or even before. I'm sad because my some of you remind me of my ex. Who cheated on who first doesn't much matter (he did, by the way). The only fact remaining is that he has no problems finding someone new. Our marriage was nothing to him. I was nothing to him. I was just someone to occupy his time till he got tired of me. So I can't help thinking that people who "move on" so easily can't possibly have been all that attached and aren't all that bothered by divorce. That is just my opinion. Now, you can get on with whatever else you were talking about and leave me out of it.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited August 16, 2000).]

TS,<P>Points well taken!!! I am not so sure I was "attacking" YOU but was more upset with your generalizations is all!<P>I WOULD TOTALLY agree with you that some men ARE PIGS, TOTALLY AGREE. They are the ones that give a decent guy a bad name.<P>Your views are equally as open to mine, if I deserve someone's piece of mind..I deserve it! Just toook it as a personal thing!!!<P>Drew

TS,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> So, my conclusion is that (in general) women put a great deal more<BR>thought into their relationships than men do. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You can't hear thoughts, so how do you know?<P>Through evolution, that has been the role of women since the beginning of time. So tell us something inspirational that will help us all be better people?<P>thl

Hello Everyone!<P>Lots of things to think about on this post, huh? <P>Honeywest: You are right. I am a little panicky. But, with time I am becoming more comfortable with everything. I still have so many issues to work out though. But, I have the rest of my life to do that, right?<P>Drew: Nice talking with you. I might have to go check out your party thread.<P>The Student: I'm glad you have responded. You are right that most of us on this thread do feel differently about why we are moving on and how we felt about our marriages. We are all different. You have some very valid points. I have considered all of them. And, still worry about some of them. But, as I have stated numerous times before, I am a romantic and so is the guy I am dating. We both may end up getting hurt, but we are both adults and know what we are getting into. Only time will tell.<P>As to your child situation, I think it is great that you want to adopt a baby from China. I hope that works out for you and I feel that as long as the child is LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY, it doesn't really matter the family structure. There are lots of studies out there on that issue. Good luck!<P>Sue: Thanks for all your posts. I really appreciate all the advice you give. It has helped me quite a bit.<P>Cinderella: Are you still out there? Sorry we have taken over your post the last few days. How is it going?<P>

711, <P>I also feel that chemistry, but I also feel a comfortableness (sp) in this relatonship. I really was not looking for it this soon. My full intent when I started dating was just get back into life, to start over, etc. <P>I have no problems being alone. I was alone till I was 28, and enjoyed life a lot then. But I am at a different point in my life now. I always knew that even if my X and I never got back together, I wanted a loving relationship in my life. <P>When this man came into my life, I remember thinking, " he is pretty special, am I ready for this?" So we talked, and talked, about our marriages, where we were right now, and I told him of my reservations. He understood completely. <P>So, ya know what? It kinda reminds me of plan A. ( By the way, he has read "His needs, her needs", and we did the questionaire). He is loving towards me, he found out what my needs are and is doing everything he can to meet them, and, it is working!! <BR>So I will give it time. If the chemistry is real, I will know if I take the time to feel this relationship out. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Susan

I'm still here. Just a busy week for me. Probably next week you'll hear more from me. I just have to survive until next Thursday. After I get youngest child in school, things will stabilize. This week is a seriously time-crunched week at work and that's the place where I have net access. Don't even own functional computer.<P>Until thread changed focus a few days ago, I was having to deal with some personal stuff about this thread. I went back and editted my early posts because I was a bit embarassed about so openly "spilling my guts" and, while I was a ladylike in doing it, I just felt it needed to be changed. And to think a thread which dealt with chemistry (emotional and physical) bore my name and was flaming high! <P>Guess the good girl in me took over. Now I need to read the last 10 or so posts here.<P>