Cinderella, <BR>Not sure I understood your last post...can you explain??<P>------------------<BR>Susan

I am in great turmoil over sex and chemistry. The man I'm seeing and I are able to carry on conversations about lots of things. History, architecture, theology, art, lots of stuff. We stimulate each other intellectually. We also have this sexual chemistry that took me totally by surprise. Big time. But I would have qualified as the ultimate good girl. The only person with whom I had ever had sex was the man to whom I was married for 17 years. I have never used an illegal drug. Been drunk very few times. Never smoked a cigarette. Go to church every Sunday - and Wednesday night. The ultimate good girl. <P>So, I meet this attractive, interesting man and am rational enough to see that he's not perfect. But, boy,oh, boy, what he can do to my body. And I'm not putting up a fight. Sometimes it just happens. No matter how hard we try to keep it from happening. <P>The problem is, I've been shocked at this. It flies in the face of what I expect of myself. It is contrary to what I grew up expecting myself to do. I really feel that sex was intended for married couples. <P>On the other hand, I had a consentual sex life as did this man. That was a hard thing, as we all know, to give up.<P>So the conflict is between my flesh and my spirit. To what degree is this a rebellious act? To what degree is it normal? Should I feel guilty or allow myself to enjoy it and do better later? Can I get over this reaction to this man and continue to have a stimulating relationship personally without it being so physical?<P>That's what all my agonizing is about.

Cinderella,<P>Having these feelings doesn't mean you are "bad". Any sex between consenting adults who are clear about their intentions is not bad. The questions are, what do you want, are you clear about your own intentions, and can you trust the other person's intentions? <P>Me personally, having sex without commitment muddies the water. Most people have a very hard time being clear about their intentions, especially with someone they have not known a long time. I've had my free-wheeling sex life before I got married, and didn't like it too much. So, I'm choosing abstinence NOT because sex is a "bad" thing, but because sex without commitment is not good for me.<P>Here is the litmus test... Think of the worst possible thing that can happen if you waited vs. not waiting, then ask yourself if you can live with the consequences. Lots of people tend to focus on the "perks" for now because that is what feels good now. They also like to think they can handle the consequences later, till it happens. Then it is "oh sh*t". You will never go wrong by sticking to your values (whatever they happen to be), but it is damned hard sometimes. Believe me, I used to love sex before my divorce. Had sex almost everyday. This celibacy thing is the hardest thing I've ever done, but the alternative (i.e. sex without commitment) is not something I'm willing to live with.

Stu - you make some excellent points. I think that doing this with no committment is the crux of the struggle. That and the question of - is it so good because it's good or because it's him? Is it a brain thing or a body thing?<P>Do you understand? <P>I think I need to go talk to my therapist and sort things out.

Hi Cinderella, <P>I've been off for awhile again, just taking a quick peek, and my goodness, your name keeps popping to the top!<P>I understand quite a bit of the turmoil you feel. From everything I have read about you, there is no doubt in my mind that it is not the act of "sex" you are enjoying, it is the pleasure you derive from sex with this man. If your mind were not open to him, if you didn't trust him, and respond to him intellectually, your body would not respond. I haven't had too many partners (thank goodness), but I have only responded in hubba hubba mode to two men. I cannot separate the act of sex from the feelings that go with it, like men can (not a slam to men - that is just the way it is, no man can deny what the horny teenage years are all about). I don't think you could either, and while you may not have a plethora of sexual partners with whom you can compare, it is a blessing you aren't experienced with the feelings of being used for sex that so many young women have. That is not a healthy learning experience, that is a tragic consequence of the sexual revolution.<P>In addition, both you and I were raised in the church, where it is understood, that you don't have sex before marriage, it is wrong, it is a sin. It is easy to say, that teenagers shouldn't have sex. Its easy to say that recreational sex without regard to the consequences is wrong at any age.<P>But how do you deal with people in our situations? How do you deal with the mixed feelings, fears, cautions and outside influences we have? When maybe if we were young with our whole lives ahead of us, we would be marrying these men?<BR> <BR>I know it should be cut and dried - it would be easier if it were cut and dried - but I have put myself in a situation where is isn't. And frankly, the intimacy draws us closer together, and is solidifying the emotional ties and bonds between us. We are going slowly about marriage, not because of doubts about each other, but because now we have careers and children to think about, and we are fully aware of the devastation of a mistake. Much more to unite and integrate, than if I were 25 and trying to build anew. Influences which could destroy it, as well as build it.<P>But I sure understand (I think?) - when the physical part is that good, it is scary, like it could influence our "logical" self. <P>But I do believe that our hearts and minds are working together - but we have been through bad times so it is very natural for us to doubt when things seem "too good."<P>Right now, I'm in a phase when my love life is good, I'm telecommuting so my work life is good, my kids are thriving in their new school, my ex is almost too nice, and almost responsible ... Kind of sad that instead of just appreciating it, I am a bit concerned that its TOO good? like the OTHER shoe is going to drop now? I hate that - this is what should seem normal...

Cinderella,<P>I think you should stop worrying and relax and enjoy it abit. I think that with the way you are thinking, any attachment would invoke these feelings, and I think this may be the first time you are REALLY in love. And I mean really, and you are confused because you don't have a reference point.<P>I think you should go with it, without worring about commitment right now, and see where it goes. Just be wary of comittment, and you should be fine, and then use POJA for the marriage, if ther should be one, but who says you have to get married?<P>as i said to sue, do you have to get married? or do you just live monogamously and not worry about the legal paperwork for awhile until your kids are totally understanding and all OK.<P>just my humble opinion, although remember, I am an atheist, brought up as one, so the religious control doesn't exist, although the Christian values do, and without the ability to say 5 hail marys to make the guilt go away.<P>religion is all about mass control, and it can really mess up a good thing.<P>thl<BR>thl

THL - To just let go and enjoy it and see where it goes is something I would love to do, in all honesty. But that's contrary to what I was brought up to feel is right. Not that all the things we are taught are right.<P>Frankly, I think right now he's even more distressed over this than am I. I've considered saying that we need to have a discussion on what kind and how much touch where is allowed. I'm not sure we know where each other's threshhold is. Or maybe that we shouldn't see each other for a couple of weeks and sort of make a fresh start of it.<P>Honey - I think you need to come to the Big Bash in Nashville in January. We have to meet. Your posts so often sound like they could be mine.<P>I'm really struggling with whether the sex is so good because it's good or whether it's so good because of the person it's with. Am I falling in love or am I already in lust. There's such a difference and I'm confused. I feel so dumb being confused over this at my age. <P>But after all, the first time I had sex I was date raped and then, like a really big idiot, I married the man. He's been my only other partner.<P>I'm not ready for this!!!!

Maybe I should just quit seeing him at all. Join the Frustrated Lackanookie Club and quit feeling guilty about feeling this good.

I'm glad this post is still going because everyone's replys hit home with me.<P>Susan: Your post about your x and his drinking and sex was like reading my life story. So strange to be so similar.<P>Cinderella: Your struggle with your religious beliefs is something I have dealt with too. I don't feel comfortable going to church right now because I feel like I am such a sinner in that environment. I am now questioning my religious beliefs.<P>thl: I like what you have been writing. Your statement that religion is for mass control is something I have been thinking about quite a bit. As to remarriage, that is something I am unsure about too. But, how long do you stay in a relationship without making such a commitment? I wonder what the kids would think of that and how that would influence future decisions.<P>Honeywest: Great advice in your post. <P>Student: I think you are right about commitment.

Cinderella:<P>I thought about not seeing the guy I have been dating too at one point because it was all too confusing. I actually did put it on hold a while back, but we got back together after only a few days.<P>We get along great, we talk all the time, we have great chemistry and we both are trying to figure out if this can work. But, we also are aware of the potential problems and the terrible statistics out there. Just keep your eyes wide open and go with what you feel is the right thing to do.<P>Pray for guidance and see if God leads you in a different direction.

Hi All!<P>Glad to see this thread continuing....I think after a marriage is over, we question ourselves so much...<BR>"What was wrong with me?"<BR>"Can anyone love me?"<BR>"Am I still desirable?"<BR>"Can I ever love again?"<P>And the answer is that yes, we can do all of these things, if we are far enough in our healing. And, sometimes we hit a few speedbumps along the way. Maybe we go through a few relationships to find that certain someone we are willing to commit to. Sometimes, it just happens. <BR>I am not sure what it was for me. YThis relationship feels so right, but I am in the early stages. But I do know that I have grown a lot, feel better about myself than I have in yrs. <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Susan

711<P>What the definition of commitment? living in the same house? being married? only doing couples stuff together?<P>I vote for only couples stuff together. And since I am struggling to get to where I thought we were going, which is where I thought we had the best to offer our kids, <BR>I have to do it at 35% efficiency.<P>So adding anyone else to the goal would be detracting, unlike mid life crises'd STBX, who will probably get married to the first BF she gets on the rebound, and will only last 10 years max.<P>I think finding a second, permanent mate will take lots of time, and testing different people. One person I met at work is great, but wouldn't work. I don't even think about it these days. If it happens, it happens, but I am not about to go looking for it. I have the goals of being with the kids as much as possible and STBX is already complaining about not having enough time, even though she is just wacky.<P>I have to be, the current STBX Bf is not an educated type, nor a highly motivated type.<P>So to have very intelligent kids get ruined by this is something I will fight against for along time. yes, I did not completely understand how this stuff all works together.<P>So that is my goal, for the next 10 years. After that I might consider getting married, but then, if being married is only to have kids, and the kids are now in college, why would I get remarried?<P>good luck, and be sure you know yourself before getting involved again.<P>thl<BR>

cinderella,<BR>You've hit on your dilemma. You have a conflict because your lifestyle and values are not in sync right now. So, you either need to change your lifestyle or change your values. <P>A huge crisis like we've all been through here is the time when people question everything about their lives. It may be time to re-evaluate your long held beliefs about sex. On the other hand, if these values have served you well in the past, then maybe it is your lifestyle choices that need some readjustment. <P>For instance, I've made a huge adjustment in my values since my divorce. Before I was married, I had absolutely no problems with sex before marriage. There was only a brief period in my life (in my late teens) where I had sex without "love" feelings (just lust was ok). With both of my H's, I had love feelings and thought there was a bond there before we had sex. Still, looking back, I still think it was too soon. That is why I've changed my values. For me at least, it is much, much harder for me to distinguish between love and lust, so I've had to shut off the lust part for now. <P>Not trying to tell you what to do. It is just obvious you are having a confict. In those situations, I can't imagine that "just going for it" is going to erase your concerns or eliminate your conflict. I also can't imagine too much that could go wrong with taking things a little slower. <P>One of my favorite sayings for times like this...<P>"A little bird told me that flying is easy, that falling is fun...right up till you hit the sidewalk, shivering and stunned." <P>So my only advice is test out your "wings" by jumping off a little shrub first. Don't be flyin' off the Empire State Bldg. just to see if you can do it.

thl:<P>I guess my question is this. If you find someone you like but are not ready for marriage, what do you tell the kids about your relationship? Do you just keep telling them that you are just good friends? Do you do things together with the kids and your friend. Would you do this for the next 10 years? Or would you not get so involved with anyone until the 10 years were up?<P>Student: I really like what you wrote. Especially, the saying. I think it is so important for all of us to really think before we act. <P>Cinderella: SO how are you holding up with all this advice? Have you come to any conclusions or are you still as confused. Hang in there!<P>Susan: You did start quite the thread. It is good to be here and talk with all these people again.<P>Dana: How are you doing? I see you slid in here for a post.<P>I'm glad I have had some time to post again. I'm selling my home next week and purchasing another the same day. It is sad and exciting at the same time. Another bittersweet experience to put down in the record books.<P><p>[This message has been edited by 711 (edited September 20, 2000).]

711,<P>I think you tell your kids you are friends, you don't have him sleep over with the kids around, and you show the kids that 1) you can be close friends with the opposite sex<BR>without living together/being married.<P>In other words, with your kids around, he is really just a friend, no hand holding, no touching, no "honey, get this please!"<BR>no kissing.<P>This will show your kids how to handle other sex friends in marriage, not like your XH did. then if you decide to get married, then the kids will understand, and will appreciate the fact that you were friends first, did not go right to the sex, and what it takes to be sure.<P>In other words, you are in control of your brain, and your body, not giving it up to anyone without the correct relationship first. <P>that is my goal. My kids, especiaily my daughter want us back together again, and I think that has to heal first, before either of us should remarry, however, my STBX is impulsive and needy, so I bet that it will be soon. although she told me that whe would never have sex with anyone until our divorce was final. That lasted two months.<P>So it gets all F!@#$^&* up for the kids because STBX is impulsive, reactive, non communicative, and non thinking, and you don't think the kids won't learn anything from this?<P>Be very careful in that all your actions are being absorbed by the kids, and they will repeat them without good understanding, and communication.<P>thl<BR>

thl: Good advice. I think your intentions are good. I too think it is so important to make sure we think of the kids first and proceed in any new relationship accordingly.<P>Unfortunately, we have no control over what our x will do. My x likes to take the kids out with his girlfriends but always says they are just friends and doesn't kiss and all that in front of the kids. So I think he is trying to do the right thing. I just hope we are both doing this right. I don't want them to be screwed up by all of this.<P>My kids (3 and 6) have been very receptive to his "friends" and my "friend". They like to talk about them. I don't really like to hear about his girlfriends but I listen and remain positive when they talk about them. Fun Fun!<P>I think we might have to start a new thread on this subject. Sorry, Cinderella, if we are now moving in a different direction.<BR>

I'm happy that you found this feeling. I found it to I think, unfortunately I found it with an old flame while I am married. Now it looks as if I will have to give that up and lose that feeling I had and found again. I'm happy that you have found that feeling and are in a situaton where you can take advantage of it.

I think the thing that's planned is to change our behaviour. I think, in different terms than POJA, that that is what we need. What is doable, what isn't? What are your limits? These are mine.<P>I don't know. <P>I haven't given up on religion. I frequently have differing opinions from others at my church. But there will be a lot of people with differing opinions in heaven. <P>

Cinderella,<P>you don't need to give up on it, I just don't happen to like it. I have been to Isreal and the holy lands. It is very interesting to see.<P>I think you are talking POJA with the other person, which is good. and as long as he respects POJA, i think you should progress very nicely. However, don't be afraid to enjoy yourself, sounds like you want to, and you should still be yourself, and learn to enjoy it.<P>where's the new thread onthe trip?<BR>and you haven't responded with the van idea? <P>is that a go? <P>thl

What is nice about my relationship is that we did a lot of talking about our marriages, what we had both contributed to them in regards to LB and what our faults were. I told him about Dr. H, and this site, and the reading I had done on marriage. <P>He asked to read my Dr. H. books. We have discussed a lot of the info we have learned. It has been very revealing to hear our stories, and how we feel about another marriage. <P>He has never seen himself not married in the future. I always thought I would be married too, but thought it would be to my X. He is just farther into recovery than I. <P>Can I ever see myself married again? I think so, later down the road. <P>------------------<BR>Susan