I recently heard something on a Christian talk show that I had never heard before. In fact I need to give credit to the source.<P>I heard this from "Dr. Phil" (Phil McGraw) who is a frequent guest on Oprah. He wrote a book entitled "Relationship Rescue".<P>Appearing on the same show with him was a couple that had been married for 22 years. <BR>The husband openly admitted he had made alot of mistakes and was now trying to correct all the hurt/damage he had caused.<P>However, despite all the changes for good; the wife had no more feelings and wanted out of the relationship.<P>What Dr. Phil told the man was (I'll paraphrase); "You screwed up all that time and suddenly just because you've made these changes, you expect your wife to just fall at your feet and worship the new you. Sorry, it doesn't work like that".<P>(Personal note: This confirms what I have heard that men tend to want to forgive/forget and say "let's just move on"..while women take a long time to get over hurts/wounds.)<P>Dr. Phil told the man it would take time and that his wife was going to have to see consistency plus need time to heal.<P>Then, it was what Dr. Phil addressed to the wife that caught my attention. He basically told her this: "You have to earn the right to leave this relationship. By that I mean, you have to have turned over every stone and made every attempt at reconciliation before you have the right to walk out". Then he bluntly asked her if she had done this (she hadn't).<P>This really ministered to me because of my situation. After nearly 30 years of marriage, my wife left me in Feb of 1996. We were separated for 4 years before we finally divorced in March of this year.<P>During this time, I remained faithful to her, I didn't date, I made every attempt at reconciliation, I turned over every stone possible to restore the marriage, I made all of the changes necessary, I dealt with every issue (and then some) that caused the separation...but my wife wasn't buying.<P>Finally, after 4 years I gave up and filed for divorce. In Texas there is what is termed a No Fault Divorce...simple, 60 days to finalize, both parties sign and it is over.<P>I didn't want to divorce my wife, but she said she wasn't going to divorce me; in fact what she wanted was a "permanent separation".<BR>Even after I filed the divorce, I would have taken her back.<P>So, when I heard Dr. Phil say that we "have to earn our way out of a relationship", I can honestly say I can look in the mirror and declare I did everything humanly/spiritually possible to save/restore my marriage, but God would not cross my wife's free will.<P>I honestly believe in most cases, the #1 cause for divorce is "selfishness" in one of the two parties. Not always...but most of the time!<P>I want to admonish anyone reading this post, before you give up on or walk out on your relationship; ask yourself....."Have I earned the right to leave? Have I honestly turned over every stone and made every attempt at reconciliation?"<P>If you can say you have and the other party refuses to change; then I say in the words of Jesus...you are free to "shake the dust off your feet" and move on.<P>What I have shared, I tried to share in love and compassion; and not in judgement towards anyone.<P>[censored] from Texas

Dear [censored] from Texas,<BR> Thank you for your post. I am sitting here with tears down my face.<BR> It hasn't been that long for me. My H & I had a very rocky relationship. We are both in recovery & each in our own right have been sellfish. When we were together I tried everything I could I wanted to meet his needs make it work showed him love took it back showed him love again for years he said he was leaving if things didn't change he said he couldn't live with me I didn't clean the house right I didn't pay the bills right etc<BR>Sex was always good & we did that until the day he left. I became resistant to his leaving & that forced him away. He left after he graduated machanical engineering school got a new job in another state (I put him through school) And is angry & miserable And I still love but he doesn't want me. He bought a 2000 Harley & living his life.<BR>Mine is falling apart. I am accepting that I had a 100% responsibility in the destruction of our marriage. I have taken a work shop on this billferguson.com Now I treat him with love I set him free I let him go. I still go through the hurt but I process it & let it go.<BR> Now the paper work needs to be done the no fault divorce. I don't want to file or pay for anything I did not want. He says he loves me but can't live with me. I don't have a choice. I tried so hard to do it right in our marriage now I am finding there are things I am not doing well Now I am behind on my bills <BR>and I had a problem @ work & I have the boss today. I am still sober & clean 17 3/4 years.<BR>& I am doing the best I can I am goin to a finacial advisor & get my life on track back to your post I am looking at did I turn every stone???? I'll look at that . Now I need to take care of me He left in December & doesn't want it to work.<BR>Thanks for your insight.<BR>Where in Texax are you?

Yeah, I've earned it. Still not ready for it yet thoough. I'll give her maybe another 6 months.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

[censored],<BR>This made me think. I've looked back, and short of losing all my self respect and individuality.... or basicly doing only what he said I could/should do, yes, I feel I did do everything I could do. I know my X would disagree, he disagreed with everything I did/said anyway. <P>He didn't want a wife, he wanted a cleaning woman/financial planner/cook/hooker (sorry, but it's true) without a mind or opinion of her own. That is one stone that I could not turn... losing myself and being unhappy just to make him happy. <P>Still, I didn't leave.... he did. No, I don't feel he did everything to earn the right to leave. But I can except what has happened and move on because I did.<P>Thanks for posting this.<P>Butterfly<P>PS ~ where have you been?

Gypsy<P>First of all, you can not take on the weight of accepting 100% blame for the destruction of your marriage.<P>I believe when a marriage fails or is in trouble, 99% of the time it is always the man's fault! I'm sorry men, but God appointed us as the heads of our home and He calls the man into accountability!<P>I know there are rare exceptions to this rule, but your husband sounds very selfish and he has to take account for his part!<P>You say he just left in December, this is too soon for either of you to think of divorce. Remember I went almost 4 years. Just back off, take care of yourself....leave him alone and let him make the next move.<P>Oh, I am from Fort Worth, Texas<P>Chris 123<P>Initially your response "Yea, I earned it.." almost sounded beligerent to me; but then I remember reading many of your posts in which you did hang in there..... If you can look in the mirror and from your heart know that you turned over every stone and went the 2d mile, then I would say "you earned it".<P>Butterfly<P>Good to hear from you again...aren't you the one I e-mailed about the UPS systems (you're from Alb, NM?)<P>How have you been? I have been mostly lurking here lately...I guess I just got tired of posting on the Mega-Thread with Mitzi/Murph......I hope they reach 2,000<P>You say your husband left (are you separated or divorced?) - If he didn't "earn" the right to leave, there is nothing you can do about that. He has to live with his choice. Just don't 'beat up' on yourself...ok?<P>Thanks to all who responded here....<P>[censored] from Texas (Fort Worth)<BR>

[censored],<P>Haven't seen you on in a LONG time, unless your hiding out on another board??<P>Your post was a good one and made lots of sense. I sure hope I earned the right to walk from my marriage.<P>He cheated once every 5 years , 3 times in a row, left on xmas day and moved right in with OW. I gave him a month only because we had been this route 3 times now, and leaving his children on Xmas, I didn't feel I could trust him again. I would have saved the marriage for the children but not necessarily for myself. <P>I suppose it wasn't a lot of time, but ultimately, his cruelty and pure disrespect had grown over the next few months and in my heart I believe I made the right decision.<P>Don't be such a stranger and prayers to you,<BR>Dana (formerly "lonelymom")<BR>

I tried so hard, so hard. But I couldn't measure up to his expectations. It broke my heart to file for a divorce. Actually took me from a good emotional place back to Paxil.<BR>I would have done almost anything but he wanted a performance based realtionship and I couldn't perform up to his expectations. <P>Would I take him back? That's a toughy. I'd consider it but, and this is the fly in the ointment, he would have to change in lots of ways. It would not be healthy for me or the children to live with an emotionally and verbally abusive man who definitely displays some tendencies toward violence. I think the potential for him to physically hurt me exists. So, I would really have to see a lot of positive changes and I certainly wouldn't consider doing it without him actively participating in a lot of professionally-led therapy.<P>Meanwhile, I still grieve a bit each day although I wouldn't go back to the life I had before. There's still "one last cloud that just won't rain".<BR>

[censored],<P>This topic did make me think.<P>I believe with all my heart that I earned the right to "leave" my marriage. I did everything I could to hold my marriage together and he still moved out. Then after that, I tried all that was possible. I had to file in order to get child support. He wasn't giving me money and wouldn't visit the boys. I can't change who he is or force him to spend time with the kids.<P>I didn't try as long as some here, but I know my stbx and I know that nothing would have worked.<P>I feel very at peace with my decision to go ahead with the divorce. I endured more during my marriage than any one person should have to. I know that I have made the best decision for me and my kids.<P>BTW, I've missed you! <P>Mitzi <BR>

[censored] could you send this to my wife? This is how I feel!

[censored],<P>You put into words exactly the thoughts and feelings I've had about my own marriage. <P>JL, a person I greatly respect, has told me more than a couple of times that my ex had a "right" to divorce me because I cheated on him. For some reason, that really stuck in my craw, for the following reasons:<P>1) My affair was very brief. The EA maybe 2 months. The PA two weeks. I do understand that this did not minimize the pain my ex experienced, however, the deception was not long term. <P>2) I confessed voluntarily and did everything my ex asked of me to regain his trust. I also know that trust doesn't happen overnight. I expected and was ready to live with his distrust for a very, very long time, maybe even life.<P>3) My ex did not go to counseling himself, and only went to three sessions with me. In my opinion, he exited the marriage emotionally the day I confessed. Never did he address the things he did to breakdown our marriage. This had always been a problem with our relationship, actually. <P>I feel like I "earned" a second chance because of my efforts after my confession, and also because even he admitted I had been a very good wife before this happened. I was willing to do whatever was necessary to prove I was worthy of it the rest of my life. Some say my ex had a right to divorce me. He had a "right" only insofar that anybody has a right to decide what to do with their lives. We all have free will. However, my ex, IMO, did not earn the right to leave our relationship because he did not do anything to address his contribution to our problems, not before the affair, and not after. The only reason he stayed around after my confession is so that he could punish me, not because he was willing to work towards reconciliation.

Cinderella<P>Unless your husband is willing to deal with his own issues, things will never change. His need for a performance based relationship is a mask/cover-up of his own demons.<P>When I say you must 'earn' the right to leave a relationship, if a woman is in danger of physical harm...she has no choice but to leave.<P>To Cinderella, Mitzi, The Student and anyone else reading this:<P>Again...I still say the success or failure of a marriage relationship is 99% on the shoulders of the "man" and not the woman!<P>I am very hard on men because I are one and also because of my own experience!<P>Even tho' the Bible says "the woman was deceived (Eve) and not the man (Adam) in the garden, when God came down, who did He call into accountability?<P>He didn't say "Eve, wherefore art thou?" - No, He said "Adam, where are you?"<P>In other words, He called the man into accountability.<P>When God gets ready to put a home/marriage back into Divine Order, I believe He begins with the MAN and will totally break that man and crush him and then begin to put him back together as the man of God/husband he should have always been.<P>Of course this is contingent on the man being willing to be dealt with (as I have for 4-1/2 years)...however; if the man fights the dealings of God and refuses to deal with his own issues and blames the wife..God's hands are tied.<P>Mitzi<P>Hi! I really don't know your story, but what you shared today and from what I had read before...you certainly 'earned' the right out of the relationship. I am just sorry your husband didn't wake up.<P>Hey...I see you are approaching 1700 posts, I still "lurk" but just haven't posted lately, I'll probably jump back in later.<P>Anyway...you have a blessed day.<P>The Student<P>It was nice to hear from you again. From what I had read on other posts/threads, you have caused some people concern here on MB. I hope you are doing ok.<P>Now first of all, your husband did not have a "right" to divorce you because of your indiscrete affair. Even tho' the Bible talks about this being the only grounds for divorce, this should never be automatic.<P>There is a higher law and that is the law of love, mercy and forgiveness; obviously you husband didn't extend this to you.<P>Then you mentioned you don't feel he earned the right to leave the relationship..this may be true; however, it is no concern of yours. You can't be responsible for his immature actions. You can only be responsible for you.<P>Then, not to excuse your EA and whatever else happened; but if a woman is being treated the way God intended her to be treated by her husband, why would she want to look elsewhere?<P>In other words, did your husband knowingly or unknowingly drive you into the arms of another man?<P>I have read some of your other posts and you are obviously deeply scarred and I pick up that you are so wounded, you have adopted the mentality "I will never love again, I will never trust or give myself to another man".<P>This may be where you are at right now, but you don't have to stay there....given time and the sweet love of God....you will come out of this.<P>Hurting in Omaha<P>I'll be glad to send this to your wife..does she have an e-mail?<P>Thanks again to all who have responded...my prayer is that I can be used of the Lord to touch/help others.<P>[censored] from Texas (Fort Worth)<P><BR>

How long does it take till you earn the right<BR>to leave a marriage??? I mean..a year..six months? How long? <P>My thing is..my husband has never trusted me..not before we married..not since we have been married..he said the reason he married<BR>me was "so I wouldn't need any other man in my life". I have always had men friends..some<BR>I have known since I was little (1960's) and<BR>some I have known since the 1970's..and we have been there for each other during bad times and good..when parents died..through divorces..marriages..childbirths..everything.<BR>I have women friends I have had just as long..and he is threatened by them as well..before we married, he would find letters I was writting and had set aside to do something that I would go back to, and get mad that I wasn't writing anything about HIM<BR>in the letters..I wasn't writing anything about any men..just writing in general about life..and things God was doing in my life..He went to church before we married, only if I went..if I didn't go..he didn't go..(Yes I know all the signs were there of control) but because I hadn't allowed God to fully heal me<BR>from past abuses, it's what I was used to in<BR>relationships..and didn't fully understand what unconditional love was..three months into our marriage, my husband took a job that<BR>takes him out of town continually..(he's home about 1 weekend a month, maybe 4 days a month) he provides finacially..so that I can stay home w/ our children..but there is no other support..nothing emotionally (I would try and talk to him about things I was going through and feeling and he'd walk out of the room..because it wasn't leading to "sex")he doesn't talk to me..doesn't open up emotionally to me..so I talk to my friends..both men and women..he see's that as <BR>a threat..yet he doesn't give me that of himself..I have sent him e-mails, asking things and telling him how I am feeling about things..and things God is doing in my life..<BR>and he doesn't even respond..he's been saying for the past 7 years he would look for a job<BR>in town that he is home all the time..yet he hasn't even done that..I sent out resume's for him at one time..he didn't even return the phone calls of the ppl who did call him..<BR> I ended up having an affair last year..his response..see I knew I couldn't trust you..<BR>(we've been married almost 9 yrs) he still isn't looking for a job in town..yet he expects me to "make up" for having an affair..if you do this then I'll look for a job in town...if you do that..then I'll look for a job in town..he hasn't looked in 7 years..why should I trust him to do so now? <BR> I've been praying about this for a long time..and I wonder..how long do you wait??<BR>

Thorned Rose<P>Sorry, there is no 'pat' answer/formula as to how long you wait. Each situation is different.<P>Sounds like you are about at the end of your rope....you might consider writing him a detailed e-mail, unless you think he'd sit down long enough to listen; and listing each of your concerns/hurts etc.<P>This is why I strongly believe in 'trial separations' in lieu of divorce. Many times, they can be real 'wake up calls' to people like your husband.<P>Wish I could just hand you an equation or a formula...but there is none.<P>[censored] from Texas (fort worth)

Thornedrose,<BR>My ex sounds alot like your H. He got mad one time because I called my cat "sweetie-pie". He was the only one allowed to be called "sweetie-pie". <P>After I confessed, he told me he never did trust me and always knew I would cheat on him. And I said "Ok, why did you marry me, you selfish b*stard?". Basically, I spent most of my 8 yrs with him proving I wasn't cheating. I work with all men, so it was no easy task. I had never cheated on anyone. Of course, after my confession, he was telling his friends, coworkers, and family I was a nymphomaniac-sex addict. Yea right. I was faithful to him for almost 8 yrs, cheated on him one time, and that makes me a sex addict. Sigh.<P>Anyway, my ex had some serious trust and control issues that had nothing to do with me.

[censored],<BR>"In other words, did your husband knowingly or unknowingly drive you into the arms of another man?"<P>This is a question I am not,um,allowed to answer. If I say yes, then people will think I'm looking for justification. If I say no, then my ex is off the hook for the things he did to cause damage to our marriage. The truth is, I am completely responsible for my behavior. However, we are both responsible for the events leading to this behavior. I know I told him many times prior to ever meeting the OM how much his anger hurt me, and reminding me of past mistakes, most of them before I ever met him. Even after I met the OM and before anything physical, I told my ex "I'm afraid of you". His response "I don't want to be married to someone who is afraid of me". I can't remember a single time he took responsibility for anything in our relationship, either before or after. So, my feelings say YES he did push me away. I had OTHER CHOICES about what I could do with those feelings besides cheat on him. The difference between him and me is that I took responsibility for the things I had done to damage the marriage, and he could not.<BR>

The Student<P>I hear what you're saying about "did he drive you into the arms of another man" - It's almost a Catch 22 situation. <P>You'll catch flack if you take either position. And yes I agree, "two wrongs do not make a right" even if "in the natural" you were justified.<P>Also, you brought up a good point and that is the issue of "taking responsibility". I think the paramount sign of maturity is when a person begins to take responsibility for "their own actions" and quits blaming everything else and everyone else.<P>This is what turned my life around back in 1996 when I realized my problem wasn't my wife, my kids, my job, my finances, my Pastor <BR>etc/etc....my problem was me! Was my sins, my faults.<P>Introspection, transparency, open-ness and making yourself 'vulnerable' (all in balance) is liberating.<P>As long as a person, no matter how old they are; continues to blame their spouse, childhood etc, they will never grow up, never change.<P>Thanks for the response!<P>[censored] from Texas (Fort Worth)

I'm new to the Divorce board. Was hanging out in Emotional Needs and Infidelity sections earlier in the year.<P>Brief history: D-day for me on wife' affair 12/99. No commitment from wife to work on marriage but we both start going to individual counseling. PA with OM-1 basically over because he is afraid I will tell his wife. Wife goes through withdrawal but still can't decide if she wants to work on marriage. This goes on until 6/00.<P>I decide to quit job (some other reasons for this in addition to marriage situation and it's effects) and take kids on long vacation. We left end of June and returned last weekend. Goals were to give W time and space to try to reach a decision on marriage, me to heal, think things over and be prepared either way, build even stronger relationship with my kids and keep them from being shuttled off to daycare all summer. ( wife was stay at home mom for past 2 1/2 years, but now working so she would be able to pursue her independence).<P>I knew the minute we arrived what I was going to hear when we talked. We didn't have a chance to talk that night. That evening I found an e-mail from newly discovered OM-2!! I wasn't even snooping!! It was tucked in the sun visor of my pickup, which she had been driving while we were traveling in her bigger car. E-mail references a night where she turned down sexual advances but was still signe smooches all over, referenced her new naval ring, etc.<P>W explained this as "friend" that was feeling more than she was, etc. There were some inconsistencies in her story that I brought up but basically let go.<P>We discussed where we are going. She says she knows that I could make things work with her, that I have grown and changed immensely, and that she knows I could do the work of building a real relationship, etc. But… she has not interest in any relationship, liked living the single life while we were away and all that. Basic resolutions are that she will move out in 3 weeks when kids start school and we'll begin the divorce process. She even mentioned me having primary physical custody! (which is fine with me and maybe better for the kids)<P>Later this week I find e-mails from OM-3!! This guy is more serious, things have gotten sexual, and all that other good stuff! And what is even worse from a mans', or at least my point of view, is that she is experimenting with accepting sexual favors that she would never allow me to give, even though I was willing and approached her on this numerous times throughout our marriage.<P>Anyone else ever seen anything like this on these boards? Up to OM-3!!??<P>What chance does Plan A or even Plan B have if, as the fantasy ends with the current OM, she begins with a new OM? <P>Met with counselor for first time since return last night. She, of course, has told him nothing about her new relationships. He doesn't have much to offer me at this point except to begin to rebuild my life without her.<P>So at this point my strategy is Plan A until school starts, Plan B after she moves out and try to sever my emotional ties to her so that I don't have to suffer any more of this. Plan B will become Plan D and that's that.<P>As far as "leaving no stone unturned", I feel like I am getting very close to that point.<P>Not sure I even want to hope for a last minute miracle after all this. Hope for this marriage only seems to cause me pain and dissapointment. I feel like I am better off hoping and preparing for some future relationship.<BR>

[censored], <P>Thank you for your post on "earning" the right to leave a marriage. That is the point that I am trying to make with my H now. 3 weeks ago, he walked in and said he wanted out, I told him I didn't want the marriage to end and wanted to work on it, he basically told me that it would be a "disservice to himself" to try and work it out. We've been together 10 years, married 8, he told me he wanted it to end the eve of our 8th anniversary. We have 2 children. I say he has NOT earned the right to walk out of our marriage. He hasn't even attempted to try and work things out. He is coming over this evening to discuss things, he isn't in a hurry to divorce, and what his mother said yesterday to me about him going through with a divorce was not correct. General consensus of friends is that he lost his mind for a bit, and that it will all work out later. I plan on printing out your original post on this thread and giving it to him to read. I am in the process of scheduling an appointment with Steve Harley and H's comment was, "telephone counseling?, what does that do?" I'm doing it for myself first of all, if he wants to be there, too, then it shows me he isn't as hardened as he is trying to seem. He has read the print outs I gave him from MB site, and he took LB with him last weekend to read. <P>I'm trying to work on that "earning" ideal, I know that if this marriage does end, I at least, have tried my best to try and reconcile. I'm also working on other issues, been looking into Guy Finley's site and Bill Ferguson's sites about letting go. I'm trying to find self peace at least, it's the most I can do for the kids in all of this. Thanks again,<P>Lori

Bangarra/Lori<P>The whole issue about "earning the right to leave a relationship, has to do with you" and not the other party.<P>In other words, you stated you don't feel your husband has earned the right to leave your relationship; this may be true.<P>However, you can't "make him" earn the right so if he refuses to see the light, then you have to let him go.<P>I heard this statement that I have tried to live by: "sometimes we have to keep doing the right thing, even when the right thing isn't being done for us or to us".<P>I think it's great you are going to print this out for him...I pray he will be receptive. Just remember, you are only responsible for you and no one else.<P>He has to take responsibility for his own actions (good or bad).<P>[censored] from Texas (Fort Worth)<P>

[censored], <P>You are so correct in your statement that it is up to him to figure out if he earned it or not. he read the post, he took it with him. We talked a lot, or maybe I did, he said he really didn't ever see us getting back together. he has walled himself up pretty deeply, and actually doesn't make a lot of sense in his words vs. his actions. He did say he wouldn't give me any promises, but he would think about all I told him. He isn't ready to jump into a divorce, he's taking some time to think about things. He did say he was ready to drop it all and just start over, I said doing what?, he said he had no idea. I've decided that I need to let him go. let him have his time, I made it very clear what I wanted to try and do. We have to meet at times because of our business, but other than that, I think I will give him as much time and space as he thinks he needs. Guess I can't expect a quick fix, when he says there isn't anything left in him to care. I can at least say I tried when it comes to looking back at our life and wondering what happened.<P>Lori