All,<p>Well, I'm back from my Thanksgiving trip to Ohio. While there I called my wife daily to make sure she was ok. I expressed to her that I missed her and loved her.<br>I was hoping that when I returned she would be mellowed, so to speak. She's still the same. She didn't react with any affection when I came home after being gone a week even though she offered and gave sex that night.<br>I was off on Monday and so was she. She said she still felt I should leave, telling me again that as long as I was there that my presence blocked her from getting things clear in her mind.<br>I started packing right then. I saw no need to keep prolonging it. But I asked her straight out what her intentions were. I wanted to know that after I left would she really be thinking that now she could proceed to block my return. I said I was asking point blank because I was confused about her motivations so I just wanted a straight answer. She said no, that wasn't her intention at all. In fact she said she wanted to keep close communication with me all the time I was gone, however long that is.<br>I told her I was planning to take advantage of Steve Harvey's phone counselng for my own sanity. I described it to her and asked her if she would participate, but that I would be doing it even if she didn't. She said, yes, she would do it.<br>I found a place to stay with studio apartments. It's rather expensive, $275 per week. This is a very high cost of housing area. I didn't want to go the apartment route. It's expensive, has leases to sign, and I would have to buy items to furnish it.<br>The studio apartments can be rented from week to week and have all the furnishings.<br>When my wife saw that I was definitely going she asked where and how much it would cost. When I told her she thought I should look for something cheaper.<br>I was getting a little exasperated at this point. I told her that I was to the place where I could not bear being her roommate and that I was ready to go for my own peace of mind. Since she has said that the sooner I go the sooner she can sort things out, then why should I hold things up any longer?<br>She just listened, saying she understood. This morning she says, "Do you think it's a good time to go, with Christmas almost here and everything?"<br>I said no, I don't think anytime is a good time because I don't want to go at all. But if my presence is hindering her then why should I prolong it? I can't stand living this way too much longer.<br>Point is that I'm now confused. She has told me on two separate occasions that I should leave that very day. Now that I was obviously going to do it she shows hesitation. She said she thinks I should wait and find a cheaper place. I say waiting is bad for me because I can't continue to be married and live single.<br>These confusing signals I get are driving me nuts. Anyone else had this experience?<br>

Bruce,<p>I don't know if this is the case with your wife, but let me tell you what happened with my H, and maybe we are on to something!<p>Every time we argue, or I get upset with him, he tells me that he wants a divorce, and leaves the house. This started happening while I was pregnant, and continued until last weekend. I always begged him not to leave, and apologized, even though it was almost always an argument over something he had done wrong, drinking, lying, etc.<p>On Friday, he left me, told me he wanted a divorce, and even packed some clothes. Now comes the good part:<p>I did not beg him to stay. I changed the message on the answering machine, with only my name, and then said "if you are calling for H., he is no longer here, and can be reached at ..."<p>He spent the night in a hotel, (the 2nd time in 2 weeks) and I went to my parents house. But, the next morning, he called and said that he is committed to working on our marriage, and was sorry that he hadn't been committed before. He later told me that he was worried that I wouldn't take him back.<p>Bruce, I can't help but wonder if this change of heart came from my changing the machine, and trying to move on with my lfe, instead of asking him to stay. It wasn't "an act" on my part, I really was at the point where I didn't care, but I think it scared him.<p>I say all of this because I wonder if your wife is getting scared and having a change of heart because you are actually leaving. Why else would she want to stall you and bring up the cost, or the holidays? Sometimes I think they need a good reality check. <p>I don't know if this helped, or if I'm right, I just thought our situations sounded similar on this.<p>I also don't think that they are really trying to be manipulative, I think it probably comes to them as a surprise too, when they realize that they want to be with us. We've just allowed them to tell us that they don't want us around for so long, that they never really thought about how sad or lonely or wrong they might be.<p>What do you think?<p>Deanne

deanne,<p>No, I don't think my wife is being manipulative. She has always been pretty honest in expressing herself to me.<br>I would like to think the the reality of my leaving caused her to hesitate but I'm afraid to think it. I'm afraid because every time I've thought a certain way that made me feel hopeful she has managed to dash that hope for me.<br>When I came back from Ohio after a week I thought she would be a little different. She isn't mean or nasty. She is cordial but she simply does not respond to me in an affectionate manner.<br>She tells me that it is still hard for her to think of me in certain ways. Example: When I said I was leaving I asked her if she had the money to pay the rent next month. She knows she has to pay it if I go because I can't afford to pay it in two places. (Maybe that's why she doesn't want me to go yet. What a cheerful thought.)<br>She said that I have to remember that I said I would buy the boys a Playstation. I said that since I already said I would, then I would. I said I was getting tired of being spoken to as if I had no intention of following through. Yes, I had that problem in the past, though I haven't been an inveterate liar.<br>At any rate I could tell by her manner and the look in her eyes that the reality of me getting ready to step out the door did have some effect. But, as I say, I'm afraid to put to much of a spin on that. I've crashed and burned on that account too many times.

Bruce,<p>I don't know if I have much to add other than my support. I think the reality of you being gone will have some affect on her. The trip didn't because you had the kids with you and she didn't have to deal with them. She may be changing her mind but I understand your hesitancy to believe that. Keep your chin high and continue being consistant. My prayers are with you.<p>Steph

Steph, jbm<p>Thanks for the input, as always. Nice talking to you again.<br>Yes, I think I'll hang around for now, considering the point jbm made about my kids. Also it will be easier on me, and therefore the family, financially, though I was fully prepared to deal with that anyway.<br>The plot thickens, my friends. I came home from work yesterday evening wondering what sort of situation I'd encounter. My wife was not on the computer as she almost always is. I ate supper and she came in to sit with me on the couch. Sunday night, after we made love, she mentioned that she'd like to have a massage the next day. Monday evening I offered to give her a full massage with no sex involved. She never took me up on it and was on the computer all evening on Monday. I said nothing and went to bed.<br>But yesterday, as I sat on the couch, (mind you I had said I was leaving that night) she told me she would put the kids to bed and I could give her that massage. Then she got on the couch with me and lay her head on my shoulder as we watched tv. The twists and turns of this thing are amazing.<br>I was getting the message from this not to leave, at least not right now. So, considering I didn't really want to go, among other things, I stayed. I gave the massage, which did turn into love making, but not through any pressure from me. She was rather passionate and actually told me that the week I was gone made her a little horny.<br>By this time I know better than to make the assumption that this means everything is ok. But it does reveal something to me and I think I'll continue to work on things hoping that I can turn this into a more explicit recovery. We'll see what happens.

estr,<p>I think your assessment is pretty accurate. I do believe that my wife is having a hard time letting down her wall. I believe that she sees the changes in me (she's said as much) but may be having a hard time reconciling that with her past conceptions of me. So, like you said, I don't think she is playing games either, just trying to deal with things the best she is able.<br>The other day she asked me what my plans were for the future career wise. I told her that I wanted to continue advancing myself in the computer field and that I wanted to do more with my writing.<br>But I explained that if we get our relationship together, and we become the intimate friends we should be, that I will have to be adjusting my goals to accomodate her and vice versa. We should have some shared vision of where we are going. So, I said, since we aren't at that point presently, I can't give a detailed response of where I want to be in the future because that future includes she and I being a real husband and wife, and we're not to that place yet.<br>She said that's hard for her to see, but I could tell she was weighing my words as I spoke. So, yes, I think she has to be able to finally reconcile the present me with the past me.<br>You are also correct that I am trying to read her mind. I have to constantly remind myself not to do that.<br>Good point about the kids. My sons love us both, and she knows it. I do not drink for the most part, but occasionally I buy a bottle of German wine, maybe about two or three times a year. I did that recently and my 7 year old saw it in the refridgerator. He said in front of my wife, "Oh no, is daddy going to get drunk. I hope not because I like him the way he is."<br>I explained to him that no one would be getting drunk in this house and that he doesn't have to worry about that, that I will never do anything to intentionally make him sad.<br>I spend a fair amount of time with my boys and I give out a lot of hugs. In fact I sometimes pretend to be losing power to function until one of them hugs me and restores me. So we're pretty close and I know my wife takes notice of it.<br>I think I'll take your advice and try to make this a memorable holiday in a lot of small ways. Thanks.

Bruce,<br>Sorry I couldn't get back earlier. I have been busy at work and didn't have time to post.<br>As you know, we have similar situations. About two weeks ago, my wife wanted to leave for a while. I was not sure whether it was for days, or weeks. It was spur of the moment. She packed some things on a Sunday night, made her announcement, and left. I did not stop her. I only told her that I loved her. <br>That same night, she called the house. (I asked her to so I would know where she was) She didn't know where to go, who to go to, or anything. All I told her was that I loved her, and that she did have a home and bed to come home to. That her family loved her and wanted/needed her.<br>She came home a few hours later. Since then, our relationship has gotten better. She has told me that she loves me (yes, Bruce,). But, she said she still is not sure what that really means to her. We have cuddled more, held hands more, and been more intimate. Progress. <br>Two things I think made the difference. Consistency. We have discussed this before, here. I have always told her that I support her in her effort to find happiness. I have never said we HAD to work things out, only that I wanted to, a lot. I removed all (most) of the love busters that I could. <br>Second. I keep the pressure off of her to tell me, and show me emotion. I still do. She has told me that she still resents that I do all these things for her now, yet hadn't done them for years. Again, the wall is not completely down. <br>I don't see why you have to rush out of the house before the holiday. It will be tough enough on you and the kids, anyway. But, don't make a unilateral decision. Talk to your wife about it. Explain it to her in those terms. Family holiday, and all.<br>The key here is her confusion. My wife admitted that she is, and has been, confused about many things in her life. Unfortunately, we can't explain away this confusion. They have to work it out for themselves. We just get to go along for the ride. <br>Keep in mind that the woman you love is feeling desparate, and is still hidden behind that wall. Keep chipping away. Believe it, or not, she wants to get out from behind that wall too.

Bill,<p>Your wife told you she loves you? Wait a minute...<br>Ok, I'm back. I just had to stop and do a little cheer for you. I'm really glad to hear these things. I can remember how some of your posts sounded so despairing.<br>You're right that the consistency is important. It has made a difference in my case as well, though obviously not the one I'd like.<br>I believe you're right about her wanting to come out from behind that wall. Lately I've begun to get that impression. She just seems to be fearful that she'll be faced with a replay of the past. It's my job to convince her otherwise.<br>I've decided not to go anywhere. I didn't really want to go anyhow. Even if I don't get the affection I want for now it's enough to not have to explain anything like this to the kids. that will be reward enough for the time being. In the meantime I'll continue to concentrate on being consistent and making the best environment for her that I can.<br>Thanks, Bill. Hope I'll be hearing even better reports from you soon.

Bill,<p>Your wife told you she loves you? Wait a minute...<br>Ok, I'm back. I just had to stop and do a little cheer for you. I'm really glad to hear these things. I can remember how some of your posts sounded so despairing.<br>You're right that the consistency is important. It has made a difference in my case as well, though obviously not the one I'd like.<br>I believe you're right about her wanting to come out from behind that wall. Lately I've begun to get that impression. She just seems to be fearful that she'll be faced with a replay of the past. It's my job to convince her otherwise.<br>I've decided not to go anywhere. I didn't really want to go anyhow. Even if I don't get the affection I want for now it's enough to not have to explain anything like this to the kids. that will be reward enough for the time being. In the meantime I'll continue to concentrate on being consistent and making the best environment for her that I can.<br>Thanks, Bill. Hope I'll be hearing even better reports from you soon.

Bruce,<br>I think sticking around is a good decision. As long as it doesn't distance you more from your wife. <br>And, I don't think I'm back totally yet, with my wife. She said it once, before Thanksgiving. And told me she can't keep saying it. Yet. It's still slow going, but at least I feel some progess.<br>My best wishes you and your family.

Bruce--Lookis like I am a little late coming in on this one. I don't have much to add either. But I agree with others that it sounds like your wife is confused also. And the reality of you leaving and the financial impact etc did have an effect on her. (but I also think if she REALLY wanted you out the financial impact would be overlooked) What yu reeelay to us about her behaviour also confused me. The massage etc., I'm surprised that there is so much intimacy between the two of you and such a lack at other times. Best wishes and like someone else said--keep up the consistency.

GBM,<p>I really think the reality of my leaving made something happen. When she told me that maybeI should wait I made it clear that I didn't want to because if my presence was hindering her coming to a resolution then I wanted to go now. It was the first time since this has happened that I saw her really going through a reconsideration.<br>Since that day she has been making visible attempts to be easier to live with. No, the affection I want is still not there. But conversation is more normal and she has made a noticible cut in computer time.<br>At this point I intend to rest no hope on it. I'm glad it happened this way and I certainly intend to continue showing my love for her through actions. I think she wants to know for certain that I will stay a changed man, so I will put no unecessary pressure on her, except to be as honest with me as she can.<br>No, things aren't the way I want them. But they are better than they were, and I do feel a stronger than before.

Bruce,<br>Maybe I am coming in way behind the info curve, but why is your wife on the computer so much? Is there someone with whom she is communicating with there? Raised some questions in my mind, but I will wait for your reply before I think about those anymore.<p>Don't leave at Christmas. IF you and she were to separate/divorce, your kids will have a hard enough time with that without the added trauma of no daddy at home Christmas morning.<p>Ambivalence is pretty easy for me to understand. If I ever do really think seriously about separating, I think about finances (I would lose my job - I work with him in our company), I think about the embarassment family and friend-wise, I think about the vows I made (til death do us part - pretty heavy stuff), I think about the loneliness and angst of dating in the 90's, I think about the trauma to my children, I think about sleeping in a lonely bed, I care about him and really dont want to hurt him so bad All of this makes a huge difference in my feelings.......<p>Probably no help -- as you said about the finances, pretty un-cheering thought!<p>Good luck.....<br>Maria

z<p>[This message has been edited by CarlLaFong (edited 02-12-99).]

Maria,<p>My wife has used the Internet as an escape hatch. She was unhappy about a lot of things and she started using it to avoid how bad she was feeling.<br>There is a particular group that she talks to a lot, primarily females. She's not having an affair via the Internet. Of that I'm pretty sure.<br>In the past we've had some bad arguments about her computer time. She used to say that if it wasn't the computer it would be something else since she simply didn't want to spend time with me.<br>Since all this has come to a head, and I've learned better about how to deal with things, I don't bother her about it. If she ever gives me time it will have to be because she wants to be with me more than being on the computer or whatever else.<br>So I leave her alone now and concentrate on making myself someone she'd want to be with. Every day this week she has noticably reduced her time on the computer. So...I hope things are working out for the better.<p>Carl,<p>I have the Divorce Buster's book. It's very good. As you say there may come a time when you're spinning your wheels, because ultimately the spouse will have to participate if things are going to work out. But the point of Divorce Busters is that your best chance of getting your spouse to that point is by changing yourself because that means the other spouse has to change to deal with you.<p>I'm not sure about what you're saying about leaving somehow short-circuiting God's sovereignty. Nobody can really interfer with that or terminate His goal. But before we get bogged down in some deep theological consideration I'd simply say that if you are exercising the utmost diligence from a sincere heart you shouldn't have to worry about crossing His purposes. <br>Our weakness is no surprise to Him, you know. After all, like the Bible says, He knows we are but dust.

Bruce<br>Stop for a sec & regroup. try this once if you haven't already. Do a search for Bruce and bring up all the topics you posted & posted to. I did this last night and saw a little progress, a little is better than nothing. (at least you still get to have sex =P I about forgot what it's like!) <br>You may view things just a bit differently & add some motivation to help you along till something else comes along to cling to.<br>I've read prolly most of your posts (we are in simular situations) and you've had good days & bad, like most all of us here.<br>That's why you shouldn't think of leaving, but go through the motions and show you are serious. Maybe reality will hit, like I hope it hits my W. I have several places to go, a couple here in town & several out of state. ow of the places here in town I can go to but can ASSUME about places out of state, but nothing for sure. I think she sees IF I go, that's it, I'm gone and is uneasy with that. (boy do I hope!) <br>W isn't so cold ALL the time, as a matter of fact...... She gave me a peck on the lips this morning before she left for work! "well color me happy!" =D That's almost like sex isn't it? Anyway, you hang in there & keep your distance, and let her see you are still planning in case you do go & DO have somewhere to go.<br>Hang tough, show a happy you - one who is preparred, for better or worse (better, being the whole point of it all) =)<br>good luck<br>chance

i lost part of a sentence somehow<br>She doesn't know of the places in town i could go, and can only assume of the places out of state.

Chance,<p>Oh, man, all my defenses are down. My wife knows I don't have anyplace to go except a local room or hotel. I could go back to my hometown but she knows that's out of the question for me.<br>Hey, my suitcase is still sitting in the living room with all my stuff in it. I never put it up. Thought it might be a good idea to leave it there just in case. My kids don't know the difference because we had several suitcases there for about a day after we came back from our trip, so they just think it's something that never got put away.<br>You got a peck on the lips, huh? I never get that. The only kisses I get are during sex, and not always then. But...I think I'll keep the sex. Otherwise I'll have to go out and buy one of those wooden posts people buy for their cats to scratch on.<br>I'm hoping to make love tonight. It helps to sneak the boys a dose of benadryl I had around for the youngest when he had poison ivey. It makes them sleep.<br>All of a sudden I'll look up, it's still fairly early in the evening and they're asleep. Now, darling, what can we do...?<br>Like Clint Eastwood says, a man's got to know his limitations.

yeah, got a peck...... this evening wasn't good though. she displayed some disrespectful judgements, dishonesties, & selfish demands - of which I'm supposed to be guilty of. Her & some employees (2 other women) have to go out of town to a confrence & were to fly , but the company pulled all travel expences for "non work related" functions - flying, or driving. If you are attending, you'll find your own way there. (hmmmmmmmm)<br>She told everyone that she'll drive (my truck) there & back & they can ride with. It's a 5 hour drive, from Reno to SF. Then after work she TELLS me what she is doing. The roads suck this time of year (just got a few more feet of snow on the mountians) & she can't see well at night, can't drive in the snow, blah blah blah.<br>Anyway, I said why don't you fly? it'll be an hour eachway not to mention it's safer. <br>Rather than coming to me & asking what I though about her taking MY truck & her friends there, just out of concideration AT LEAST. We talked about why travel plans changed & I said yeah, sure. But the point here is she neglected to talk to me about it and told me how it was.... hmmmmm<br>well, lets say I prolly added a few more bricks. *sigh* I pointed out the 3 busters (she would know more about if she'd read!) and I was totally sincere when talking about this, because I know how touchy it is. Well she went off the handle. "I don't have to ask you for sh*t. You aren't my father blah blah blah...................................." All I said in return was, "If you could only hear how much of an [censored] you're making yourself out to be, you'd be ashamed. It's concideration. I never told you what you could do or couldn't do. I just pointed out if you approached this in a mature respectful mannor as you would expect it be done for you, we wouldn't be having a hard time here. I'm trying & I saw what was coming in our conversation & tried to stop it, but you had to put your foot in your mouth." <br>She was pissed, as well was I, & I just left the room. This was a few hours ago seeing it's now 3am. Hehe my feet are cold & I know where it's warm! "Coming honey!" lol =)<br>I hope to get some input to see if I was out of line. I don't think I was & though I did a "fair" job avoiding anymore grief from the attitude. Her story was changing from the original one & I said to her, please, you don't have to explain anything to me. The more I hear the more I feel a sence of decete going on. She is a rotten liar! One of the girls going is afraid to fly that's why they are driving. But why volinteer my truck without even asking what I thought. Hell I woulda said yes, no big deal, but she made one out of it. I bit my tongue and didn't say something like "keep being a rotten b*t*h & and treating me as bad as you do there won't be anything here when you get back, except maybe her shredded clothes hanging in the neighborhood trees. Yes I'm very angery with her & her attitude, trying to impress her fellow employees volinteering her time (she doesn't have to go, only the president of the committie (W is vice pres & the 3rd person is also a vice pres) but I said oh yes you will. No way will you say I kept you from going.<br>I'd like to see when she comes back if she is more "here" or more "out to lunch". This isn't till after xmas. I had not a problem telling her she was going & not gonna hang here, "missing something" because of me. I said "yer going & yer gonna have a good time with your friends (also fellow employees). The pres told me that the confrences on thursday & friday were only a partial day. hmmmm but coming back on sunday. That doesn't bother me at all, but why tell me they were all day events thursday - saturday returning on sunday? Geeeeez, I told her I wanted her to go & she doesn't know the pres told me about it - AFTER W told me about the trip. hehehe, I think she might feel like an [censored] when she finds out I knew they were staying an extra day & I didn't mention that I knew!<br>Why must she always revert to the ugly past. I told her those days were over with. So spiteful! Hopefully she'll see.<p>After these past few months, I've come to terms in case of the worse, that not being what I want, But I don't want to be treated like this anymore. Well it's 4am & time to warm my feet! =D have a nice day & will write more later<p>chance

Chance,<p>From what you describe I don't think you were out of line. Tolerating deceit isn't the same as trying to keep peace. But if you decide to shred her clothes and hang them in the trees that, I could be wrong, just might be a love buster.<br>Isn't it funny how things can deteriorate in a moment because of seemingly nothing? I'd say things have been good around here, relatively speaking. We don't argue, and when we do disagree we seem to be able to handle it well enough.<br>I've trained myself to do without affection, but sometimes it seems to catch up with you. You know, like working a couple of double shifts and then later in the week you begin to run down. On Friday night you begin to relax a little in expectaion of the week end.<br>My wife walked around as usual without really interacting with me except for what she needed to say here and there.<br>All of a sudden a great sense of tiredness came over me, and the prospect of being there Friday night with a roommate for a wife and possibly the whole week end just depressed the heck out of me. I went in the bedroom and lay down. Later she comes in and asks what's wrong; I say nothing.<br>She said, "Are you lonely?" She knew she'd swerved into the truth. She pauses and I'm thinking perhaps she is about to say something comforting or at least understanding. She says, "Well, sorry, I can't help you." <br>Oh, God. I wanted to do a flying drop kick on her. I had not intended on going out last night but I got up and put something on to leave. The kids were up and I could feel an argument brewing in me so it was time to go. I said I couldn't believe I let her talk me into staying when I was prepared to leave, just to be treated this way. I could get the same environment by myself without having to be near her as a reminder of what I can't have.<br>I went to Barnes and Nobles book store and read magazines until they closed, road around a little and came back home. Kids asleep, she's on the computer. I sit down and start looking at the news. She comes in and sits with me then cuddles up on me. She sees the anger in my eyes and explains that she had a bad day at work, that she had no help there today and was doing everything alone.<br>All that's understandable. It would be nice to hear it sooner than later. Besides as far as receiving affection is concerned then she must be having a bad day every day. <br>But she acted well the remainder of the night and took the edge off my anger. Today is another day, the saga continues.