<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> How many times have I heard stories about people can who give their time, attention, and money to a zillion strangers, yet neglect their own families? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>my stbx was brought up that way: be friendly to people outside the home, and just be uncooperative at home. There is a syndrome for it.<P>Also, STBX also was taught within her family not to do too many nice things, because then they, the infamous they, come to expect it, and that is bad!<P>I never really understood that, but now it would be a big red flag! no, two red flags, each with a black square in the middle!<P>thl

Student, I think he really loves these kids and has been a part of their life for 8 years now. He doesn't neglect his daughter, now now anyway, but of course he left me. Anyway one of the things I find most discouraging is that how will he ever leave her when he loves her kids? Once he even told me that he considers himself their stepfather! So since he seems to love these kids and they love him I guess, how will he ever have no contact with her? That is one of the things that has finally led me to a place of total hopelessness. He takes them places on his own even! I know he goes to their events and drives them camp and who knows what else and has for years. In one of my conversations with HER (there have only been a few) SHE said that he loves the kids and has begged HER to let him be a part of their life if SHE ever left him. I asked him about this and he said that yes he loves the kids and will be in their life no matter what. Oh and SHE said that she promised him he could always see the kids no matter what. This was back when he was with me for that year and 1/2 after I found out and SHE told me that SHE would never ever do anything to force him to stay or control him! She always implied that I was doing these things and I guess sometimes I was but I was desperate! Her power seems to come from her just letting go and being independent. But I have tried that and all that happened was that I didn't see him and barely talked to him for over three months! Didn't seem to phase him at all. Anyway according to my husband these are the most wonderful kids that god ever created. They excel in sports and school and according to him are the smartest children ever born. The youngest two probably can hardley even remember my husband not being around. He's been a constant in their life for a long time now. I know you say that they will be screwed up because their mother is with my husband but why do they seem to be doing so great and fine?! Oh and she is like mother of the year, always going to their events and volunteering at the school. I had to hear all about her mother virtues from my husband. I said the same as you that what kind of mother would be this example and that probably set me back months. He will not have her criticized in any way. Of course he always has to point out to me how I am the one who has attacked and screamed at HER and SHE would never behave that way! Well I didn't do anything to HER! Oh here I go rambling again. Anyway these posts are really helping me work through some issues and try to look more to the future, a future that I am becoming more and more sure won't be with him. There at least I can say it!

Dear Discarded,<P>I am very sorry that you feel so unwanted and to keep getting around like this for 8 years takes a lot of courage and pluck. You are a survivor.<P>I cannot even stomach my WS's A of two years and I was even suicidal. ALthough WS came back and knelt sobbing at my feet, and stopped the A (didn't have a choice - the banshee knived him and landed in jail and banshee came to my house and yelled through the door. WS said he rejected the banshee until she couldn't take it anymore?!). <P>The stolen times they spent together and the gifts and my own feelings of being put aside, were so piercingly painful. I still feel so tormented to this day.<P>You have more courage than I can ever call upon. I know God will never test you beyond your endurance, and if you call and wait upon Him, He will give you peace, joy and love.<P>A thousand years is but a wink to God, and when we get to heaven and eternity, we will find the remaining years here so short and we just squandered them away.<P>I am still very young and I may have to live the other 50% or so of my lifetime with someone I consider unworthy of my love for the sake of my baby. I am so tempted to run away and build a hatred shrine to WS.<P>I really mull over and over again about the A, and the pointlessness and senselessness, both of which WS agreed. In fact he said the banshee could never hold a candle to me in any aspect of life from millions of miles away. (So why did he stray?) But I still feel the rejection and the humiliation and the pain and the wasted years. <P>The bottomline, I feel, is that an affair, whether done in the dark or out in the open, destroys the BS's self identity as well as identity within the marriage. That sends us spiralling down into stormy confusion, and we grieve the temporary or permanent loss of a spouse.<P>As I reread your threads, I see IT again. IT means that every situation is as individual as the characters that are involved.<P>It is possible to categorise and sub categorise the type of WS, OP, solutions, situations, i.e., the golddiggers, the mid life crisis, the weak, the hopeless cases, the real thing, etc.. However, our focus should eventually shift to rebuilding our identities and our shattered lives.<P>Eventually, we (BS) can give our 100% and more to 1. forging a new identity or 2. resuscitating a long forgotten identity.<P>1. means that after a long period of suffering and being the 'long suffering one' or 'the discarded one' or 'what else can I do', etc., you break out of the mould that is starting to shape the way people regard you and the way you feel and see your yourself. You can do this in numerous wonderful 'I am alive' ways (I posted in another of your threads some ways to rejuvenate). You live again for yourself, on God's and your terms. You help others live, give out hope, you quietly (or brashly, depending on your personality) radiate peace and joy. It is a blessing to have such complete freedom and indulgence to be what you want to be.<P>2. means awakening the potential in yourself that was buried because of the roles you took on. For instance, your childhood dream was to pursue a PhD or become a qualified ballroom dance instructress or a health food gourmet chef or a member of the Harley's Bike Group. But motherhood, wifedom, self doubt, financial, peer pressure, etc., led you to let go of your childhood or teenage dreams. But it is still there in your head, this 'what ifs' goals. Sometimes they whisper when you are in despair, other times when you see someone who has achieved your own dreams. Don't shake your head at these little dreams because they can help define you and your life and reshape your future.<P>If you find that nifty surgeon that Hillary Clinton, Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan or Ivana Trump used, post me and I will keep the address book handy, you see I still want to ski downhill at 60, and not be refused a seat on the chairlift by some concerned young punk. If any one ever asks you about why you did it (if you want to): My mirror Loves it!.

Forget about the kids. It's just one more thing to eat you alive.<P>His words about them have as much meaning as his promises to you. If it comes down to his leaving the OW, the kids will be gone too. It's just the way of it. <P>How many step-parents (and he isn't even their step-parent) have all these good intentions of being involved, but then only call only once in a while? With the passage of time, it gets less and less. As our lives fill with what's important to us now, we have less time for what was important, and the past fades into the background.<P>I'd really guess that these kids are only going to be important as long as she is.

Discarded,<P>THe more I read about your situation, the more I dislike the OW, the more I think your husband is being selfish and foolish, the more I see that there is nothing you can do. I feel for your daughter, and the sorrier I feel for those children.<P>First, the OW. She is a good example, of an amoral woman who on the outside, seems to have it all. Your OW, is living life that she is so darn special, that the "rules" don't apply to her, that the world owes her, whatever she wants, regardless of whom she hurts in the process. She has never thought of anyone but herself, a day in her life.<P>She has convinced herself, and is trying to convince you, that there is nothing wrong with having a man pay her for her services. It doesn't matter if it is a house, or a car, or a diamond bracelet, or a hundred dollar bill. It is all the same. She will provide your husband sex, or conversation, or a running partner, or dinner, or the feelings he gets by "raising" her children for money. She can try to elevate it to something noble, as an expression of love, or try to convince everyone its no different than accepting a dozen roses, but it is. Discarded, ask yourself this question - if your husband suddenly lost all his money, what do you think would happen? The old joke applies here, "we have established what you are, we just have to negotiate the price."<P>Your husband is being a fool to not see what is going on. He is deluding himself that he can recapture a time in his life that is over. My guess is that he regrets now, not having been involved in raising his own child, and is selfishly using innocent children to experience the things that he missed - he picked work over your daughter - but he wants that now that he has time.<P>As far as having you as his confidante and partner, it is a shame that he didn't ask more of you, or that you didn't see the sexual and fitness elements were as critical to his happiness as they were. But that is the past. You must look to the future.<P>He will understand down the road, when he does slow down, exactly what he has done - and believe me, he will regret the convoluted mess he has made of everyone' life.<P>Your daughter has some rough times ahead of her accepting this woman, but she must. She sees she has an amoral calculating interloper usurping her birthright - not just her inheritance, but her father's love and affection. You know there is going to be an even more insidious power struggle between her and the OW, than between you and the OW.<P>Her children don't have much of a shot growing up to be truly decent people with the upbringing they will have had. They may be well educated and gifted, but they will not have had the moral upbringing that will bring them true happiness. I would not want them to be spouses of my children.<P>These are the few years for them that a 20 year age difference doesn't appear too great. That is going to change. They may share their love of staying in shape right now, but they are from two generations, who cannot have an equal relationship, and that is soon going to be very apparent, when the balance shifts, where he becomes dependent on her. But as she always has done in the past, she will blythely go on, doing whatever she pleases - and your husband will be stuck. It is a good thing he has money, to buy the care and companionship he will need later. I am sure she will find a faster running partner.<P>My advice to you, (and then I will be quiet, I think I am the one obsessing now!) is to accept this ugly situation as graciously, and as respectfully as you can. Stay in your home - because you know what? someday the angst will be reversed. And your husband will feel those pangs, and remember what he tossed aside, everytime he passes by your house.<P>You need to help your daughter through rough times coming up. It is going to be very hard for her. Don't begrudge those other children. The OW and your husband are not giving them true love or guidance, they are being used as fashion accessories for two very selfish people. <P>And, now, since you do have money (which is an irony isn't it, since is was a contributing factor?) take advantage of what money CAN do for you. Use it for things that make you feel good. Help people. And while you are at it, why don't you get a personal trainer, and get yourself into shape? Exercising got me off antidepressants, I couldn't have imagined how much better I feel physically and emotionally, now that I am fit.<P>You are a strong person, you just don't know it yet.

Honeywest. Extremely well said! If there is a 20 year difference there is no way he'll be able to keep up with her in a few years to come. If she is really this young beautiful thing she isn't going to want to sit home and place nurse maid.<P>However, I think that filing for divorce and getting the money your entitled to should be done. Commented before about him staying married for financial reasons. I think for now this chapter needs to be closed. Stay in your home (I agree he needs to see it while your in it), get what your entitled too and move on with your life doing things for you and your daughter.

thanks BonnieSept, and oh yeah, you think in a a diatribe that long I'd have remembered to mention divorce...it seems unavoidable to me, and the only way for you Discarded, to do anything to better the situation for you and your daughter. <BR>

I have another meeting with my attorney next week and I am going to tell him to proceed with negotiating the disolution. I want a disolution rather then a divorce. I still am not sure about staying in the house. The memories are very hard for me. Also it is a huge house. My daughter still lives with me but I know a young woman of 26 should be on her own. She won't leave because she doesn't want to leave me here alone. Also I have leaned on her alot for support and companionship and I don't know if I can let her go. Maybe if I just sell the house it would help us both with the break. My husband is the type of man who still has maintained friendships from when he was in grade school. He is know for being loyal to his friends. In fact there were many times I felt he was too good to his friends! He still has close friendships with many of his fraternity brothers, friendships that have lasted nearly 40 years. That is why what he has done is such a shock to me, that is leaving me. It is so not him. He has assured me that he will always take care of me if I need him to and that he will always be my friend but he says he just can't be my husband anymore. Of course the pain of having him for a friend is too much to stand in the long run. So there is no way he would ever turn his back on these kids. He has made them a part of his life and there they will stay. I know him so I know this is true. It seems that of all his friends and family, the only one who he has ever really turned his back on is me. I mean this man is absolutely known among all his friends and associates as a man of honor and a man who can be counted on to help you when you are down. That is why people seem to assume that it must have just been a horrible marriage for him to leave as he did. They just can't imagine that he would do something like this otherwise. You see, it is completely out of character for him. He has always had a very large sense of responsibility. He takes care of his father and he took very good care of his mother. Of all his siblings, he is the most caring and responsible. So what about me? How could be be this way all his life and continue to be this way except to me? Why am I the only one that he betrayed and so horribly? <P>I just found out yesterday that he was going to be away for a long weekend this weekend with HER in a city where his brother lives. I know they are both going because my husband told my daughter they were both going. He said **** and I are going. It is impossible that he would be visiting this city to not see his brother as it is not a tourist destination. This brothers wife is the only one that has stayed married. His other two brothers are divorced and of course his sister has passed away. I felt that this one sister in law would be loyal to me and refuse to see her. But I hoped that maybe my husband was just spending time with his brother while she did something else. She goes to a lot of fitness type events so I thought maybe she was going to one of those. Well this morning my daughter was talking on the phone with my niece, this brother's daughter, and the niece mentioned that they were looking forward to having her Dad & **** visit and stay with them this weekend! Well I am sure now they are both be staying there and this sister in law is finally willing to meet her and put her up in her house! I know my husband has never forced this issue and just has let his family deal with it as they were ready. Of course she is too smart to force the issues. So am I wrong to feel betrayed by this sister in law? Should I call her and confront her? I am feeling very angry right now and bitter.

Hi D,<P> Please do NOT call and confront her, it will only make people think your H must've had a right to do this, it will make you look bad.. <BR> If you can maintain your sense of grace and dignity your sis -in law will feel guilty ....don't make the OW happy by being the angry , miserable wife.<BR> Yes, it seems like the OW has triumphed but let her be, as everyone has pointed out, things will not stay so blissful, try to stand back and let it proceed......LU<BR>

Discarded,<P>don't be angry with your husband's family. This has gone past accepting a double life, they must accept this woman, she is obviously going to be a part of his life now, most likely as his wife. <P>And that is why I see it is going to be so hard for your daughter. She has to accept her too. Nobody has chosen her over you. It isn't a loyalty issue at all, but the reality of the situation. Now, I can say, that if I were your sister-in-law, I would maybe tell him that I will accept her in my home as his wife, but not as his mistress. But it does appear to be a moot point.<P>By the way, they seem to travel alot together, where the heck are the children in all this? Do they have an involved father whom your husband is competing? <P>THere is going to be a time for you too, when you are going to have to be at social functions when you are there for your history with the family, and she is there as his trophy wife. That is going to be hard for you, but you will get through it - but that is going to be the price you must pay to remain a part of his family. But you will have that choice. I honestly think this is such a tragic situation, because I see your husband as being foolish, and afraid of growing old, not as a bad person.<P>He will feel that same discomfort, when you are with your daughter and her family, as the doting loving grandmother, and he sees that he has chosen a life in which he will be distanced, and not as much a part of the life of his own flesh and blood as he wants to be. THat is going to be very hard for him.<P>It really is up to you for the next few years to forge a life for yourself, and get through these bad times with dignity and aplomb. You need to make sure you can look back and be proud of all your actions.<P>I do believe you will see that life doesn't turn out like roses for your husband or his opportunist partner. <P>

The OW has a son in college who comes and stays with the children when they travel or she has to attend this fitness things. Sometimes they take them with them if it is a weekend thing. The OW's daughter is a very good dancer, at least my husband says so, and she competes out of town alot. They take her on weekends to these dance competitions. Her son plays soccer also omn some kind of team that travels around so sometimes they take him. Sometimes he takes one and she takes the other! Can you believe this? I think maybe he does regret missing out on his daughter growing up and that is why he is doing this. I brought up the flesh and blood argument to him once and he said that made no sense because then people would never love children they adopt sometimes at an older age. I don't really know the situation with her exhusband but I know he lives somewhere else and only sees the children rarely. So they might be taking them along this weekend. The OW told me that she would never go to a family function that I chose to attend because she knew I had known these people all my life and she didn't want to make me uncomfortable. So if she sticks by this and so far she has, I won't have to deal with that. I think she is the one who should feel uncomfortable! And I intend to keep going if just to keep her from going! But as I said, she always acts like she is so nice and in control and has a way of making me feel weak and look weak too. She made it sound like she was doing me a favor by choosing not to go someplace she has no right to be to start with! I'm glad I could post here because I realize I shouldn't call my sister in law. She really has been supportive of me but I guess the time has come for her to accept OW. Of couse OW would say, well I was invited! I never asked to go! Somehow she has a way of getting my H to do things for her without asking.

Discarded,<P>I have been reading your posts and they have really bothered me. You are in such pain and the situation is such a mess. I wish I could help. I am afraid I cannot.<P>However, you asked a question about your H and the OW's children, that perhaps I may be able to shed some light on. You asked why is he so attached to her children?<P>My feeling, based on being a father, is that he loved your D very much, may have even wanted to have more children. But he never got the chance to be a father. He was too busy making money and his business a success.<P>Now that he is older, the financial pressures are off, he is enjoying the father role. He would have enjoyed the father role with his own children and probably does with your D although it is a different situation.<P>I speak to this as someone who in my 50's has children still in school. I truely enjoy being around them and raising them now. In my 30's I was too busy trying to acheive other goals. The good news for me and family is that I didn't marry until my 30's and while I will have a High School age child when I hit 60, I do enjoy them more.<P>So you are right, he enjoys being needed. He enjoys that he has been financially successful and can now bestow the fruits of that work on someone. <P>Have you noticed that in nothing I have said have you come up or even the OW? There is a reason, it is not about you or probably about her as far as helping the children. <P>Discarded, I really don't know how to advise you, but if you want his attention, then start talking about divorce. This affair is way beyond the normal affair. You have Plan A'd and you have essentially Plan B'd him. The only reason that I am reluctant to say you should divorce him and get some of the money he is spending on OW, is that you still love him.<P>Now, here is the rub. Do you still love him or do you still love the marriage that you had? I don't know the answer. But Discarded, I have the feeling that your life will not be one of loneliness unless you want it to be. But as the obystetrician (sp) pointed out to my W, when she was expecting our first child and the subject of pain killing approaches were being discussed: "They don't give out medals for pain."<P>Your H and indeed your friends don't want to see you in pain, but they are not going to reward you for being in pain. If you want happiness, you will have to go seize it. You will have to decide not to be in pain and lead a life for yourself.<P>It appears that you will be well off financially, and I suspect that you are a very attractive woman. You are a very knowledgable woman, and having been here you now know a great deal about marriages and how to make them work.<P>Discarded, use you assets, use your abilities, and most of all realize you have a future. Go enjoy it. This has been a very sad time in your life, but it isn't the end of your life. Nothing attracts people like a person that enjoys their life. You are not old, heck, now that I am in my mid 50's, old is starting to slide way over the horizon. <P>Discarded, do come and vent here. But make an assessment of your assets, and you will see that you have many (I don't mean just money), use them, enjoy them, and quit worrying about H and OW. You simply don't want her controlling your life, and right now she is. <P>Please think about this. I hope that something I have said will make sense to you.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dear discarded,<P>A person's affair is not so much rejection of the mate as a rejection of role restrictions.<P>The very nature of being the "third party" instead of the "spouse" means it's a fantasy relationship. When people are in affairs they represent a side of themselves that's not representative of the whole person.<P>When a person chooses a third party over their spouse they frequently learn much later (if the other person takes on the role of the spouse) that their specialness had more to do with their earlier role than with the person themselves. Many people have an illusion that this new person offers a new life, only to discover after a few years that all the old feelings and issues are there just as in the past (for both of them).<P>They really didn't change games at all, they only changed the players. Today's third party may be tomorrows spouse who is unhappy in their marriage.<P>Not to be rude, but I have to tell you this, as soon as you get your "poop grouped", the sooner they will have the reality of their ways.<P>What special thing have you done for your "new" self today?<P>Peace,<BR>Ragamuffin

Thanks to both of you. I really thought about what you said. Yes I do miss being married maybe more at this point then I miss him. I miss doing things and being invited out as a couple and doing things with other couples rather then just with other women. I miss being at a man's side. I am sad and angry that something has been taken away that I will never get back, that is the security of a marriage of 30 years. Even if I was to meet someone else and I know that is not too easy for someone my age, that is one thing I will never get back. I have tried to listen to my husband openly when I could put aside the pain, and I have not always been very good at this, but one thing my husband points out is that while he was a workaholic we both benefited from it alot. We both are very financially well off. I have three sisters and all of them have had to work all their lives. I haven't had to work for 29 years. But I have told him I would trade the wealth for an intact marriage. He says that is easy to say when you already have it. Maybe he is right. Ragamuffin, the thing I guess that really bothers me so is that he acts more married to her then he ever did to me! Yes we had a social life but we never did much just the two of us. With her, he does. With her, he acts as a father to her kids. With me, he was never home. With her, if we to to a family event or he comes over for some reason, you can tell at a certain point he is just itching to wrap it up and get out. Yes I am ashamed to admit I have followed him and yes he always rushes to her house. AT this point I guess the best I can do is bow out gracefully and I doubt it will even be noticed. But I have been taking to heart what I have been reading here. I spent some time researching plastic surgeons today. I also am going to a Spa in Austin, TX, for a week next month. I am going to try and see what I can figure out to do this weekend to keep my mind off their visit. So I do listen. It's just so hard.

discarded,<P>WAY TO GO GIRL!!! Checking out plastic surgeons and a week at a spa lined up!!! Now get to work on something for this weekend! One foot in front of the other, (even if it hurts) you are doing it!<P>I'm rooting for you!<P>Ragamuffin<P>

get over it ! lady<P>anger leads to unhappiness....<P>dont go there .....