NO, NO, NO. Most of the WS's of the people on this board DID NOT PUT ANY EFFORT WHATSOEVER into preserving or improving the marriage. Most of the betrayed spouses were caught completely unawares, by spouses who sometimes the day before told them how much they loved them. Yes they do flit off into the sunset as soon as someone else comes into the picture. No, they do not try to "make it right." They don't even bother to tell you there is anything wrong. <P>As my H said, "Why would I be motivated to work on the marriage when I am happier now?" <P>My H was not atypical. HE DID NOT TELL ME ANYTHING WAS WRONG. Even after the affair started, when I could tell he was not acting normally, he told me it was not about me, it was about him. It was only later, after "WEEKS OR MONTHS" of feeling that way (which "coincidentally" coincided with the how long the affair had been going on) that he blamed me, that he decided we should have divorced long ago, that he made a mistake marrying me, etc, etc. Even after he left he admitted that at a time a few months before the affair started he had no plans to leave. <P>DIVORCE IS NOT IN MOST CASES A CONSIDERED DECISION OF RATIONAL PEOPLE. IT IS TYPICALLY A UNILATERAL DECISION MADE BY SOMEONE WHO IS INVOLVED IN AN AFFAIR. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited September 21, 2000).]

Whoa, Nellie!<P>Actually, the info I've read says that an affair is a *symptom* of something bigger and worse in the relationship. It doesn't just *happen*. <BR> Maybe the person having the affair would like to think he could have his cake and eat it too and "not leave" and not give up either relationship. But moving out of the primary relationship into one on the side is a big red indicator that other stuff is going on in the original relationship and isn't being addressed.<P>You better believe it has roots and a reason. It's not just an "accident" ....

Nellie, you are so right. What you've said is true for MOST of us here. Most of us were caught off guard. Ya it's a sympton of something bigger, I call it mid-life crisis - the big quest for fun. The abdication of responsibility on the other person so "I" can go out and hunt for fun. The finding of a new young hot babe. The "raising of kids is too hard" syndrome. Chasing after whatever it is they think is missing in their pathetic lives! Weakness, that's all, on the part of one person and selfishness regardless of the effect there is on innocent small children. The greener grass on the other side of the fence (fertilized with sh** as someone else once mentioned here).<P>We never fought. There was no violence. He just decided he wanted to screw anything that winked at him. I said I do and meant it, and he kept right on dating. Then came home to me acting like the moral upstanding Christian man, loving husband, devoted father he really wasn't. This may be me just looking thru my narrow slice of the world, but it seems to me there is more of this going on than people researching their feelings over years and years of anguish before they finally decide to call it quits.<P>By the way, thanks Jim (I think). You're the man.<P>------------------<P>Kathy<p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited September 21, 2000).]

In Frank Pittman's book "Private Lies", he says that 90% of all divorces involve infidelity, and I believe it. Now that my eyes have been opened to it, I see it EVERYWHERE. <P>Yes, infidelity may be a symptom of problem in a marriage, but it is never an excuse.

From everything I have read and seen, infidelity is often a symptom, not of something wrong in the relationship, but of depression or unresolved issues in the betrayer. Frank Pittman attributes the vast majority of affairs in men to a problem in the relationship of the men with their fathers. While that may be an overgeneralization, it is not true that affairs necessarily have anything to do with the quality of the marriage. <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited September 21, 2000).]

I agree with Nellie on the above point. My therapist said that of all the affairs he knew, the men either come from homes where the father had been unfaithful or the men have a predisposed personality to cheat because the 'conditions were just right at that time'.<P>He also noted that men who had cheated before tend to continue being unfaithful. Men who have never been adulterous continue to try their best to stick to being faithful.<P>I believe that although there are cases of infidelity due to emotional needs not being met adequately, there are more instances of infidelity that stem from the unfaithful spouse's lack of commitment to the relationship and/or lack of strength of character. The quality of the marriage is a non issue. <P>There are exceptions to the above and these may be, as one member puts it, the spouse's lack of protection in a vulnerable situation. My therapist said that this is rare but there are instances of spouses being drunk and got into an affair / got raped. My WS belongs to this category. However, I still feel that it shows a lack of character when you cannot prevent being so pissed drunk because that makes you vulnerable.<P>Like it or not, the 'wronged' party in a divorce is left with the pain, and often the females are saddled with the 'she is not doing enough in the marriage' tag. This is especially painful if, like myself, one has been hit twice in the same way in both marriages. The talk is there but if I were to listen to 'well meaning' suggestions, I would have thought I was a major failure in the bedroom because an affair involves another woman and sex; naturally people would jump to conclusions.<P>How does one pick up and dust the mud off and say, amid all the finger-pointing theories, that I was not inferior? I have come to realise and even feel now that they were feeling inferior. I married 'down' believing that men who think you are the stars and do not match you but instead can't believe their luck that you would marry them, would be faithful. Well, I divorced the first, an abused orphan for the abusive and unfaithful marriage. I am contemplating my present situation with WS. It is harder with children involved. It is even harder to accept that the affair was schemed and set up by the banshee (2 years of blackmail) and was exposed when banshee knived WS in public and landed in jail because banshee couldn't take anymore rejections?! Life is tough as it is without all this mystery. My self esteem plunged and I wanted to believe that WS being toasted drunk by clients and got set upon in his bed by the banshee is my partly my fault, if you look at the theories on infidelity.<P>Ironically, if you were in my position, it seems to make more sense when there is something concrete to fix, then something so sinister. I keep having doubts about everything, and my how can I accept the affair (WS said it wasn't one; he was merely a slave to her blackmails?!) when I can't even accept the reason?<P>

I'm going to jump in here on the bandwagon with Nellie. I too had what I considered a good marriage. I loved my H, he loved me (or said he did), we spent lots of time together and with our kids. What happened to us was a 4 month long business trip and a woman who had no morals whatsoever. After 15 years with me, I guess the excitement of someone new, with no kids and no responsibilities was too tempting. We didn't have a loveless, unfulfilling marriage. Everyone I know has been completely dumbfounded by my ex's behavior because we always had such a good relationship. We always respected one another and had fun together. I'm not saying we never had problems, but his "dissatisfaction" NEVER came up until AFTER he met the ho. Now we are divorced and he's been living with her for months. They are getting married soon. He went from one stable marriage into a brand new relationship. We had NEVER discussed divorce in our entire marriage until after the ho. I am not exaggerating here. I don't believe the affair was a symptom of anything but bad timing and a mid-life crisis. We definitely had plenty to salvage...it was worth it. There was no abuse, there was lots of good stuff. Had he been the least bit willing to even TRY, we could have made it. But like Nellie's H, he figured - why bother? He was happier with the ho. You can't pigeonhole people and relationships. I don't believe an affair is always a "symptom" - sometimes it's just stupidity and selfishness. And the ones who pay are the kids. They will forever be from a "broken home" that could have been prevented if my ex had decided to be a grown-up. Sorry for the rant.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

Keridwen and Nellie (weep too),<BR>Maybe I'm still in denial or something. I know I tried talking to my H over and over before my affair happened. While, I will never blame my H, I also know we had problems. Heck, it wasn't for about a year after our divorce that I could stop blaming myself for everything. <P>Overall, though, I think we had a good marriage but I was extremely vulnerable at the time. Moved to a new place with no friends or family around. Stress from starting school. My ex was living in a different state at the time. Rack up all the things to do WRONG and make a marriage vulnerable to an affair, and we were IT. Most of you know my affair was very brief (physical two weeks, emotional one month). I had never cheated before, and I've been celibate now for over a year and a half. I don't think I fit into the standard "cheaters" profile. <P>I'd say the standard cheaters profile probably fits for those who are unremorseful. In those cases, they haven't learned their lesson. There are people who fail and learn. I pray to God I'm one of them. Someone asked me what I would do if I ever cheated on someone again, and I told them I'd put a gun to my head and pull the trigger. I mean that.

TheStudent, <P>Eerie, my WS said that, too. <P>Why are you so resolved about not cheating again? Is it the pain to the spouse, the divorce or it was a weakness on your part that led to the affair?<P>I really hate it that I can't turn back the clock and erase everything of the affair. <P>My WS said he can't erase it and I can't erase it for him. <P>Perhaps it is easier for men to get over their affairs than women. You really are about the most remorseful and repentant person I have heard about. It is really life changing for you; most WS just want to get on with life and are too cowardly to look inwards.<P>Hey, you dissect everything, turn them inwards and out, leaving no stones unturned, all of which demonstrates a great capacity to reinvent and grow. You will reach there - that elusive meaning of life. <P>Got to run, now.

OK, so I'll ask it again:<BR>What are WE -- collective we -- going to do to make sure our sons DON'T grow up to be cheaters, that they do learn to be responsible and loving, and our daughters don't grow up to have relationships -- or serial relationships -- with cheaters, lazy oafs, and shallow ponds that never grew up?<P>

Wordvixen...I don't know. I hope my 2 sons see the mess and pain their Dad has caused and NEVER want to inflict it on anyone they love. But you never know. As for my daughter...I think I am most worried about her. The psychological ramifications are frightening. She's 11 just going into puberty. She has always been a "Daddy's girl". Now he abandons me (and her) for another woman. I think she sees it that way in her little girl mind. Some other woman was ultimately more interesting and worth dumping his family for. I don't think conciously she thinks this, but I have a feeling that is some of what is going on and will definitely affect her adult behavior with men. I think pre & pubescent girls need their fathers desperately to help shape how they are as women. How do women react with men? What is the relationship? These are valuable lessons little girls learn from their dads. But when dad is absent...what then? He doesn't even want them for Thanksgiving this year. He is spending it with "her" family - and I guess my kids aren't welcome. What to do? I don't know. If I did I probably wouldn't be in this crappy job. Ah well...kind of in a b!tchy, feisty mood today. Don't take me too seriously.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

weep,<P>"Why are you so resolved about not cheating again? Is it the pain to the spouse, the divorce or it was a weakness on your part that led to the affair?"<P>All of the above. It was taking 8 yrs of hard earned trust and flushing it down the drain. It was the fact that he could never trust me again, hence the divorce. What still haunts me is my weakness. I've undone every part of myself to discover what that weakness is, and still don't know the whole answer. The only thing I do know is that I can't be intimate with any man until I figure it out, for my sake and for his.<P>wordvixen,<BR>One thing we can do is emphasize personal responsibility in everything we say and do. Not just the big things, but the little things as well.

For many here, whether or not divorce is "good" for the kids is elementary at this point. <P>The ONLY thing that matters now that it's happened is what are WE who are left behind going to DO for the benefit of our kids? Is it to our childrens' benefit to remain bitter? To hang on to the anger? To continue to point fingers in righteous indignation and let them know just how much of a creep our ex's are because they didn't (and in many cases still don't) live up to their end of the bargain? <P>Or would it be better to let it go, forgive (that doesn't mean forget!) and do our very best to provide the most stable, loving home we possibly can? That doesn't mean it's easy by anyone's definition, but holding on to the hurt, the anger, and all of that certainly isn't going to help.<P>Remember, if <I>we're</I> not okay, our kids aren't going to be okay either. I think THAT is foundation. If WE can't get past it, how can we expect our children to? <P>The world's imperfect; life is not fair; it doesn't matter who's at fault. What really matters is what we do from this point forward.<P>------------------<BR>Bobbie

I agree with you Bobbie, but how do you get past all that? I mean...I'm angry, and p!ssed off, and indignant, and hurt, and lots of other things. You can't just make it go away. I wish I could, because maybe then I would feel some peace. I think I do as well as I can keeping these feeling under wraps around my kids. I don't bad-mouth my ex or anything like that. But it is so frustrating to be stressed with the kids, working full time, school, chores, bills, and ex gets them every other weekend and they get to go to Waterworld, or Six Flags or some other exciting place Mom can never afford to go. Heck, I can't even buy them school clothes right now. I won't go into that - long story - but it's down right hard to remain positive when you feel so overwhelmed, especially as a result of choice you didn't get to help make. I have been very angry this week thinking about how my ex's life is so calm right now while mine is one continuous compromise and whirlwind. I am making arrangements for the kids, schlepping kids, running errands, it's exhausting. There is no real quality time. It's just surviving. Is that what the stable environment is? Because, the article seems to me to be saying what is going on with me is just what seems to be the most damaging to kids. But how do you stop it? I can't quit working. I can't quit school or I'll never have any kind of financial stability, I can't quit being mom, I can't stop paying bills...what do you do? I wish I was the supermom that other's are, but I'm not. I think those of us left behind are left with a huge burden. The betrayer knows we are going to hang in there for the kids while they go off scott free. And then they get to be Disneyland Dad. It's not fair. But far be it from me to point my indignant little finger. Personally, I'm just too da#$ tired. <P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

Keridwen,<P>Yes, it is just surviving. And I think that a large part of why they left is that they saw an escape from the burdens of parenthood, of being responsible. And the law is written so that the non-custodial parent has plenty of legal rights, but no legal responsibility except to pay the amount of child support he can reasonably afford - which is usually determined to be far, far less than they were spending on the kids while they were home. Meanwhile, the custodial parent has to support the kids whether she can afford it or not. I spend money on the kids needs first, and then my own. The law is set up so that non-custodial parents have money set aside for themselves first, and what's left over goes to the kids.

Nellie,<P>I have read your previous posts in this thread and agree from the bowels of my soul that the OP is like a drug to these robot WS's. <P>I respectfully disagree with you about the non-custodial having the easy street in these matters.<P>My wayward wife would probably be much happier without our 4 y.o. daughter. But she is paranoid of the scrutiny and virtual "excommunication" she would get from her family.<P>In our soon to be disolved family, I am the mother (to a significant extent) and the father. I am the one who makes prepared meals (W only gives D microwavable Dinty More or Beffaroni). I am the one who introduces her (daughter) to the physical world around her and answers her questions. I am the one who took her to daycare every morning (after getting her dressed and feeding her breakfast).<P>And yes, I am the non-custodial parent who will be forking over $1,175 per month so that W can have a pretty decent meal ticket. W will likely dump D off at her folks or sister's and be out with the boys doing shots of Rumpleminze.<P>And finally, I am the one (as are you!) who will be grieving over the disintegration of what at the end of last year was a happy well functioning family, with me having no idea that there was a problem (was there really a problem??). And I will be suffering over the bizarreness (is that a word??) of a professional (as I am) driven STBX W who is 42 years old, going back to her HS crush who is both a derelict and a homewrecker.<P>I feel for you, but don't ridicule the decent fathers out there who are living in a sector of sexual discrimination with pain that is unimaginable.<P>Jay B.

Jay,<P>I did not intend to criticize non-custodial betrayed fathers. I just can not understand a law that would allow fathers to pay little or no more in child support for six children than for 3. Where is it written that fathers are only responsible for supporting their first three children? When my H was home, at least 75% of his income went to support the children. Why shouldn't both parents have to pay as much of their income as is necessary to support the children? Based on the guidelines, if you divide his income after child support by the federal poverty guidelines, and do the same for mine, he is far, far better off, even if you assume he is a one person household - and since he gets to split expenses, he is even better off. Why don't they equalize it, so that the non-custodial parent and the custodial household both end up with a similar income to poverty guideline ratio?

Studies have shown that the lifestyles of single mothers take a real dive as opposed to divorced men whose lifestyles actually iincrease by some 50%.<P>What is critical is that divorced parents get together in some form to lobby for changes in the legislation rather than spend individual sums fighting it out in the courts or appeal courts. Is there some association out there lobbying for the rights of parents living on the borderline of poverty.<P>The issue of weekend fun parent and weekday tired parent is very real. Some couples even divorced over the fact that daddy who travels a lot during the week is the daddy who brings home goodies and the fun one, while mummy is the disciplinarian. <P>In the case of divorced custodial parent, there need to be some form of mutual and trustworthy support groups that one can depend on to babysit. This helps give the tired parent at least an evening free a week or fortnight. Working in companies that have flexi hours may be another way to ease the time pressure, eg., working on weekends so that the weekday is less demanding.<P>Someone mentioned in another thread that it might be a good idea to teach marriage skills in schools. I find the notion very good. Furthermore, compulsory marriage skills should be taught for couples registering to get married. Again, some form of coalition has to be formed to lobby for this to pass as legislation. The premise would be that divorces have already changed the fabric of our society as families disintegrate at an alarming rate, creating pockets of poverty in now worse-off single parent homes, as well as affecting the mental health of many otherwise focused folks with the potential to lead far better lives and the wasted energy which could have gone into contributing to the nation.<P>Other side effects of divorce would be children of divorced parents not reaching their potential in work and life, thus eliminating a large group of potential innovators and contributors to society. The damage done is not only familial and individual, but societal, its shape and future.

Jim: Thanks for finding the articles.<P>Well, the topic has changed a little but I really found the discussion on infidelity very enlightening. After reading everyone's posts, I don't think I will ever know the real reason why people cheat. There are so many factors involved. When I first found out about my x cheating on me, I wasn't that surprised and actually blamed myself. I thought it was because I wasn't affectionate and had let myself go. After much introspection and therapy and friends telling me that I was crazy, I am not as hard on myself. But, I do feel in my case that the infidelity occurred for all of the reasons stated in everyone's posts. I think it is a symptom, but I also feel it is like a "drug" for them too. It happens in what seems to be the best of marriages and it happens in the worst of marriages. So, who really knows. Bottomline, it happens. I just hope it doesn't happen to me again. I know there are still good men out there. I am dating someone now who seems like a good man. The scary thing is that you really never know. <P>Keridwyn: I can relate to how overwhelmed you are and how angry you get over how easy it is for your x spouse. I am so sick right now and it is because I have worn myself out trying to work, take care of the kids (even though my x shares in this responsibility), sell my house, buy a house, packing, dealing with the emotions of divorce and a move, and dealing with my x complaining all the time about how little money he has, etc. I am just hoping after the move next week, that some of this stress will go away. Do you ever get time to yourself when he takes the kids? Or, do you have to work then? I hope things get easier for you soon.<P>Nellie: I can't imagine having to take care of 6 kids at near poverty level. What a tremendous amount of work that must be for you. It is amazing that you can even find time to post here. I barely find time and I only have two kids and my x actually does help out quite a bit. I guess I am not supermom either. It sounds like you are.<P>Finally, as to what we do for the kids where we had no choice in this matter. Again, the only thing I know I can do, is to show them lots of love, not bad mouth my x, and try to do all my household chores, etc. while they are with their father, so when they are with me I can spend quality time with them and give them lots of attention and love. Even with all of that, it may not be enough, but I hope and pray that it will be. It is all I have to give. <P>For all of us that believe in the power of prayer, let's pray for all of us and the kids!!!!!!<p>[This message has been edited by 711 (edited September 23, 2000).]

There is compulsory marriage "training" if a couple is planning to marry in the Catholic Church. The fact still remains that all the training in the world - regardless of where it comes from - won't make a bit of difference if one (or both) parties are not interested in living up to their vows.