Ohhhh.....where to begin.<p>We have been married for 15 years. We have two elementary school aged children. We present ourselves as an ideal family. We are both well educated, not overweight and in<br> reasonably good shape, physically healthy, although I have experienced bouts of <br>depression (I'm not sure which came first, depression then marital angst or the reverse.)<p>My wife tells me she never gets "horny". Ever. She enjoys sex when it happens but doesn't go out of her way to have it. She usually has an orgasm. I believe that I am an affectionate, patient and good lover; she says that I am . She just doesn't have the same interest in sex that I do.<p>In the first few years of our marriage my gentle advances were regularly rebuffed. During those years we made love every two or three months. I learned when and when not to <br>make overtures for coupling. Never ever after a candle light dinner with wine, never after a night out with friends and very rarely during the week. If any of our parents were within 50 miles of us forget it. The afternoon was best and occasionally in the morning. On weekends only please. We have never spent a weekend in bed together and have never made love more than once in a day for two days straight. We made love twice during our honeymoon in the tropics. (Its easy to keep count when it happens so infrequently.)<p>The following five year period was even more sexless than the previous five. We had our children although our second child was conceived during a one time break in a 1 year <br>hiatus in sexual activity. We immediately began a 1 1/2 year sex free break.<p>The past five years have been mostly a hit and miss situation. I'm fed up with not being desired by my wife. I feel rejected, emasculated, alone, adrift. My depression set in during this period. Our sexual encounters have occurred when I could bear no more .... what's strange is that she willingly joined in. Regardless, I think we have made love only twice in the past year.<p>I have genuinely tried to be sensitive; read books, explored the web, talked to many people, tried flowers, skin flicks, months of intentional sexless nights of cuddling and <br>comforting, weekends away, and even candlelight suppers with no kids around. <br>Occasionally we would make love . . . but all would be forgotten in the morning. <p>We have spoken many times about our sexual relationship, and yes my wife would work this out with me. But nothing would happen. A year or two later I would bring up the subject again and yes, my wife would work this out with me. And a year or two later I would get the same response. And so on and so on.<p>Lately my attitude has been screw her. I feel that I've done my bit now its her turn. I have spoken with her about my feelings throughout our relationship but she has never <br>reciprocated. And I have mentioned to her my recent "screw you" attitude. Per usual, she either says she agrees with me and we'll work on it (which of course doesn't happen) or she gets angry and refuses to talk to me (her most recent response).<p>I've had several women make very direct advances on me which I have rebuffed. I have always adhered to my belief in marriage and the need for a strong family unit. Lately, however, I wonder that if the opportunity came along would I take advantage of it. I am quickly losing my sexual desire for my wife. I want to be a sexual being. I am not in my marriage. <p>Does my wife have an aversion to sex? I'm not sure, she say she doesn't and enjoys it when it happens? Is she having an affair? I don't think she has time for one. Is she gay? She says she isn't.<p>I'm neither macho or wimpy. I'm passionate, caring and usually a lot of fun. (So I believe.) We both are loving, nurturing parents. We share domestic chores. I don't spend weekends watching sports and only very occasionally will I go out by myself with the guys.<p>But I'm stuck. I don't know which way is up any more and I fear that our relationship is <br>almost dead. I wish my wife would desire me like I did her. I don't want a wife that <br>"gives" me sex. Yet I want sex.<p>S@!t<br><p>[This message has been edited by Adrift (edited 12-08-98).]

Amen, Brother!<p> Although I have no advice or help for you (you'll see why shortly)I can share your pain, disillusionment, and desire to BE desired.<p> I too, have been married 15 years, but no kids. Ohterwise, we sound all too alike (hence the no advice, I've have used it if I had.) My wife thinks we have a "satisfactory" sex life at a couple of times a month - stretching out to once every two or three months at times. (Probably sounds like heaven to a guy who went 1-1/2 years like you did.) Again, only on weekends. A romantic dinner, wine, only make her sleepy. (I just LOVE spending $150 - $200 on a really nice night out to be rewarded with snoring!)<p>(sorry for whining!)<p> The really similar thing is that my wife never seems "horny" either. No desire, no arousal, nothin. It's really no fun to make love to a woman who's just doing it to get you off her back (no pun intended) is it?<p>I'll be watching this thread closely. I hope someone has answers for both of us.<p>Val<br>(The Husband)<p>PS. I've read HNHN, and "Give & Take", but until SHE does (and takes them to heart) I'm not holding my breath!

z<p>[This message has been edited by CarlLaFong (edited 02-12-99).]

Adrift and V:<p>Baby, I can relate! the only difference is I am the wife! I'm not trying to sound conceited but I am a very attractive woman. I'm not overwieght, I have all the right curves(though I could use more up top!) Everyone is always telling him how they wish they had a wife that looked like me. Heck, I even look good when I get up in the morning (I have been told on several occasions). I try everything, lingerie (I wear a different nightie every night), perfume, satin sheets, candlelight dinners, bedtime feedings, massages, oils, whips and chains, handcuffs, pleasure balm, the whole nine yards and just like you, I don't get a second look, thought, nudge, rub. Unless you count turning over and going to sleep no, profuse snoring, something. Nothing. My husband doesn't even know what my thighs feel like because he has never touched them. I have tried EVERYTHING to no avail.<p>He once told me that I need to learn how to control myself. Why? I'm married! I did it God's way! We did not touch before we were married. Shoot, we touch every four months or so for a few minutes after we were married. Even wedding night. I was so disappointed. He had we to the store and back before I even got out of the house. <p>I understand what it feels like to have "mercy sex" or just do it so she'll shut up and stop whining about it. <p>I have no advice to give and I'm sorry a five finger discount is not satisfying. I don't condone affairs but they really leave you no choice. Sex is supposed to be one of the expressions of love. Does this mean that our spouse's do not love us anymore, are they gay? Or does it just plain ole' look bad being that age and never married. <p>Yes, it is very frustrating. And I don't know what to do. Or who to talk to (boy, girlfriends love hearing stuff like this). I just keep on praying that maybe one day he'll see the woman who is next to him and truly begin to love her.

I wonder if anyone has done a study on who snores first and its connection to the quality of sexual relationships?

Amen brothers (and sister!):<p>Adrift: Like yours, my wife is never 'horny'. I can't think of a single time in the last 10 years that she has initiated. She tells me: "Why do we have to have sex? Why can't we just BE?" What am I supposed to say to that?<p>So, we end up being intimate maybe once every 2-3 months. And even then, I have to suppress the knowledge that she really dislikes it/me/whatever. Thank goodness I have another lover who never rejects me! (Hint: she's right there at the end of my arm!) <p>Val: I've read HNHN twice, almost done with LB, and have G&T to read next. Asked my W to read HNHN, but I think she only read the list of needs, and thought 'Screw this!'. (Gee, I wish I WAS the list!)<p>Carl: I agree: spending money on a fancy evening shouldn't 'buy' sex from our spouses. But in marriage, shouldn't we expect SOME 'needs-meeting' reciprocation, at least eventually?<p>Princess: Does your hubby have any physiological or psychological problems with sex that you know of? I ask because, as a guy, it's difficult to under stand why he wouldn't be aroused by the things you've tried. Heck, I was getting aroused just reading your list! And no, I don't apologize for that, any more than I apologize for salivating when I'm starving and smell a steak on the grill!<p>Anyway, for Christmas from my W this year, I'd just like one unprompted hug, and a sincere "I Love You!" And, as a fantasy, an extra line: "Take me to bed--Now!"

Adrift, Val and Carl - <p>Here goes - another perspective. My H is in the same position as you... I am the non-responding W (well was... proof that things can change...).<p>I left him in the sexual lurch for over a year.... a couple of months ago he gave up and said he wanted a divorce.<p>So what happened? well this is only my very subjective perspective.... In my case, After stopping work (for many good and bad reasons), I started losing self-esteem, and stopped talking to my H. He was very supportive, but I interpreted his support otherwise. Many a time he "boiled-over" stating he needed more sex - I heard, but did not (could not?) listen. I tried bartering sex for affection... wrong!<p>Well when things came to a final stand-off and I was pushed to the edge, I looked a lot more closely at his request, and why I felt I could not satisfy it. I found an immensely thick and high wall of resentment and anger, and my own low self-esteem looking me in the face. I realized that the resentment wall had a very big crack in it - and managed to start demolishing it. As for the self -esteem, as I started re-building it, I found myself to be more attractive, and that led me to look at myself more sexually, and that actually led me to wanting sex!!!!<p>For a few weeks I felt as though I was on a second honeymoon - but it may have been too late for my H...<p>I am not saying to push your wives to the edge - just saying that there may be reasons that they themselves have not wanted to address reagrding their lack of interst in sex. Have you read His Needs Her Needs or Divorce Busting (weiner-davis)? Do not read these books just looking for fixes. Look for signs about how you have been acting in your relationships... after all it is a two way street. Your wives may have very deep rooted feelings that prevent them from letting go sexually. If they are not ready to listen... they are just not ready to hear or receive your side of the story. Reading HNHN was very eye opening for me. It may be for them too. The Mars and Venus Series (especially the bedroom one) was also informative - but then again - I had to be receptive to the info!<p>But yes... I have learnt the hard way that sex IS one of the ways my H shows affection.. and is a very primary need. What I would give to not have gone through this to learn it... a very bitter lesson.<p>If you guys can give me tips on how to get him back (now that I have seen the "light") - please share - need all the help I can get...<br>J

It's not just husbands who are going through this sort of thing... it happens to wives too.<p><p>[This message has been edited by Cat_Johnson (edited 12-14-98).]

Reading a response like Princess' makes me feel (even more) like I've made a mistake. (by marrying who I did.)<p>How come all the guys who want sex are married to women who doen't - while the women who are dying for sexual attention are married to guys who aren't interested? <p>Did we make each other this way? Did we all start out the same? <p>As for "expecting something in return" for taking your mate out for a fancy dinner, I too, can hear people saying that. As it saya in "Give & Take", Our "givers" can only go on being generous for so long before our "takers" step in and try to even the score. <p>I feel like a total chump for being so accomodating. I feel like I should sit on my [censored], watch TV, burp a lot, and be a jerk. <p><been a whine-y kind of day for me, sorry><br>Val

All,<p>I just want to thank everyone on this thread for the laugh I got reading it, particularly Doug and Val. I know it's not a funny situation but the way you guys describe it is hilarious.<br>In my case I get sex but nothing else. Figure that out. My wife said she understands how a man needs and wants to keep the trouble down tha she knows would arise if she didn't give it. But though she is not as outward about it as i am she likes it to. She says she gets horny. With me she can tell because I broadcast it. With her I can tell if there is no resistance to my asking for sex. <br>I really can't imagine not having it outside of her death or a divorce. You guys, and gals who have struggled through months and years without it, well, you've got more grit than I ever thought of having.

All,<p>I just want to thank everyone on this thread for the laugh I got reading it, particularly Doug and Val. I know it's not a funny situation but the way you guys describe it is hilarious.<br>In my case I get sex but nothing else. Figure that out. My wife said she understands how a man needs and wants to keep the trouble down tha she knows would arise if she didn't give it. But though she is not as outward about it as i am she likes it to. She says she gets horny. With me she can tell because I broadcast it. With her I can tell if there is no resistance to my asking for sex. <br>I really can't imagine not having it outside of her death or a divorce. You guys, and gals who have struggled through months and years without it, well, you've got more grit than I ever thought of having.

please replace my name with "adrift", "val" and others !!!<p>ohhh what to do !! ???

Doug, Val, Bruce (others):<p>Just remember. I'm still here... No whining!!<p>And I have the lock on the 1998 trophy! I'm hoping that I can pass it to someone else in 1999 (preferribly none of you nice folks).<p><br>In a serious vein Bruce, I just redid my emotional needs questionnaire. I did it last year about this time. My responses (degree and rank of needs) were amazingly consistant. And although the physical affection/sex issue is still a big 'minus', my wife is meeting more of my needs overall. And I'm more 'in love' with her according to the love bank inventory sheet. That doesn't surprise me at all, but it does underscore the importance in meeting all the top emotional needs. In my wife's case, she's doing pretty well with 3.5 of them. And good with the 5 'less important'. <p>I think that in our case my focusing on fixing the lovebusters and working on her emotional needs (even though I'm not sure what they are) outside of sex is having a real positive effect. Between that and really fixing the communication issues, we've grown closer. And I am hoping that after the birth of the baby (very soon now) and appropriate recovery time, 1999 will bring 'Princess-like' lovemaking...

K:<p>Did you see my post under "That's Life"? I was thinking about YOU, big guy! <p>I'm glad things are improving between you and your wife, and it sounds like maybe 'that other area' may improve soon? I hope! And don't worry about being rusty at it... it's just like riding a bicycle. Well, not JUST like riding a bicycle. But it DOES involve mounting and pumping....<p>Geez, I'm getting myself all tingly.... does anyone else smell steak grilling?.....<p>May all your future showers be HOT ones...for two!

Thanks Doug. I missed it when you posted.<p>I appreciate your 'thoughts' during my period of abstinence. It's really very encouraging that things are improving as they have been, and that this 'positiveness' seems to have the ability to snowball too. Just like the negativity that a lot of folks have been dealing with.

For all the "wife has no desire for me..." posts, all I can say is ditto, ditto, ditto....<p>Has anyone tried/considered sex therapy??? For my wife & I, I'm not sure if we need marriage counseling, sex therapy, OR both? I don't know much about sex therapy - and never thought I/we would be ones to go - but I now wonder if that's what we need. <p>After reading HNHN, I felt like "OK, it's me! I'm not affectionate enough!" But then I think there may be something deeper to overcome - and reading some of the ill-fated efforts of others in this post I can't see how it can be otherwise. So again, has anyone pursued sex therapy?

Hi,<p>My husband and I tried counseling but everytime the subject came to sex which was what we were there for he would say" I'm just not physically attracted to her". He loves me and loves being with me and all the holding and cuddleing that come with two people who enjoy each others company. Just No sex. If I initiate he says "You are just obsessed" Once in a great while when everything is perfect he will go through with it and seems to enjoy. But like someone said a little earlier then thats that. and no more mention until the next time that I conjole him into it. It's beginning to be too much trouble. Oh year! He said we were gong to counseling so that I would understand. Let me assure you I never understood. didi

Have all the nonsexual spouses been to a doctor and had hormone levels checked? New info on perimenopause is interesting in the area. Estratest is a relatively new estrogen that can increase libido. And there are testosterone patches for those with low levels. Just thoughts-I would be looking for any straw!

Hey, everyone:<br> What a hilarious bunch of letters! I am also the W who has not been very interested in sex for several years. Not much desire. When we met eleven years ago, we were all over each other. I felt testosterone running madly thru my veins every time he walked in the room or looked at me.<br> Well, now we are separated, and have completed the E.N. and Love Busters questionnaires and discussed them with each other. Our situation was complicated by cervical surgery i had about 5 years ago, and sex dropped quite a bit after that. Recently, it's been once a month or less, with an occasional burst of sex twice in one week (but, very rarely).<br> Although i'm afraid it might be too late, once i realized that PART of the reason he has fallen out of love is because i was not giving enough sex to satisfy him (among many other love busters), i went to my doctor and complained LOUDLY this time. See, i had mentioned it twice before, and they ran some tests and said everything's OK. So, i just let it drop. <br> Well, now, i've switched doctors, requested a female doctor, and stressed the problems that this has created in my life. To make a long story short, the doctor is running more tests--she mentioned things like "thyroid" problems, estrogen problems, my previous surgery affecting the glands that lubricate, and depression as possibilities for the decreased desire. I feel like it has been helpful to pursue this whole thing from a more aggressive standpoint. I'm only sorry that i didn't do it before it all had such an impact on my marriage. (I'm not saying that sex was the only problem, but i'm certain that my not wanting sex has had an impact---especially after i read all of the woeful stories from the other men).<br> Anyhow, i think it's important to rule out ANYTHING physical, and if you're still not satisfied, keep pursuing medical testing. One thing i found particularly interesting was the "sexual" section under Dr. Harley's Q&A.<br> I also wanted to add that i think i may have been more assertive with my doctor if my H had made more of an effort to back me up, and nonthreateningly encourage me to keep talking about it with the doctors, maybe even have said "Hey, i'll go with you. This is really important to both of us and i want US to get it fixed" (kind of like if i were diagnosed with some rare disease, i think he would have jumped right in there and taken me to every specialist in the world). Boy, i hope all of you can identify your problems, even if it means going to several doctors to tell your story (I know that is embarassing, but unfortunately, for me, my inability to pursue it has caused a lot of damage). Best of luck!!

Just a quick note here. Although I don't think that anyone who has posted here has mentioned if they are on any medication, there are many meds which can impede or reduce libido, including many of the serotonin-uptake inhibitor types of anti-depressants (Prozac, Zolft, Paxcil, etc.). If you are on any kind of medication, talk to your pharmacist about its side-effects. It might be embarassing to do so, but ask directly if it has any possible impact on sexual desire! Also keep in mind that smoking and alcohol consumption affect libido as well - do some web searches and you will discover there are a lot of things that affect sexual desire!<p>terri