nikkilynn2,<P>OK, lets start with me first - time for my confession: Months ago in counseling with my wife, I said something that day that I really wished I could take back saying to her. Why? Because it did not "come out" right. I said basically the same thing your husband did, except I said it to the counselor and to my wife directly. It was in one of those real emotional sessions where I learned so much about myself and about our marriage. It just flowed out of my mouth. I said: <P>"I always knew that there was absolutely no way xxxxxx would ever leave me. And looking back now, I can see that even though I never admitted it to myself at the time, I took advantage of that. Many times when she would bring up problems we were having, I did not really, really put the attention I should have into listening. I just figured she would get over it"<P>How did she take it the wrong way? Well what I was trying to say was that I now saw one of the most powerful underlying reasons for my part of the blame in our marriage. I discovered something that I was/am extremely ashamed of and I was/am learning from it. I wanted her to see the honesty it took for me to say those words and for her to see the truth in my saying that never would I feel that way again or take her for granted ever again. And I know that if(when) she comes back, if we both get nothing else out of this experience, me just realizing how I felt about her "always being there no matter what" and how wrong that was, will help bring our marriage to a higher level of love and MUTUAL respect.<P>Unfortunately she did not (does not) see it that way, and just as you were hurt to find out your husband said something similar to you, that is how I know my wife was hurt. And I don't blame either of you - that must be such a hard thing to hear. I could see instantly becoming mad not only at the person who said those words, but at yourself for letting "you" get that way. I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe your husband said that statement in trying to express the dedication and commitment he felt coming from you and that maybe he felt inferior thinking that he could never be as strong as you were/are in that respect. Just a thought.<P>Now, I will try to not attack you, but I don't think you should start rationalizing your actions. I truly believe that there is no room in a spouse's life for a best friend of the opposite sex. NO MATTER WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES. Once you feel you are (or can) share things with this person that you can't tell your spouse, it is a BAD situation and the right thing to do is to terminate it. Once you start taking your emotional thoughts away from your spouse and giving them to another, you are being unfaithful. And no matter how hard you try to rationalize it away, this OM is part of your decision to leave. BUT, what you need to realize is that you are only getting the "best" from this man right now. He has no history with you, no past. There were no hard times the two of you shared - he does not know your bad habits, or the parts of your personality you like to hide. Things only spouse's know about each other. Yes this man may be giving you what your husband was not, but is this still the case??<P>You mention that your husband seems to be changing but you don't believe it. Maybe it is because all your emotional needs are now being filled by this OM and there is no room for your husband. By convincing yourself that your husband is only going to "go back" to his old self, you are rationalizing your guilt in sharing with this OM. And don't kid youself by saying you won't persue things with this OM... Are you being totally honest with yourself?<P>You may not want to hear this from me right now (sorry ), but maybe this is the biggest test of your life and of your vows to yourself, to God and to your husband. Loving someone does not mean you keep score. Maybe by digging deep down and standing up for love (even if you don't feel it right now), you will grow in ways you can't imagine. God does not want you to divorce - its that simple. If you BOTH work hard on your marriage, I PROMISE you that God will bring the feelings of "in love" back into your marriage.<P>Yes you have a choice here: Let your fear in being afraid to trust your husband again control your life and allow you to rationalize the wrongful feelings you are having for this OM, or trust in God, trust in love, trust in your husband just "One last Time". But also take responsiblity in knowing that your marriage is 50-50 and just maybe there are things that you have been doing wrong.<P>If you can't already tell, my wife had the same kind of male "friend" you have. And guess what, I knew.... Don't ask me how I knew, I just knew. I felt her withdraw from me. At the time we were supposed to be working on our marriage, she was more concerned with receiving emotional support from this "friend". She then began discounting all the changes that were occuring in me. Do you know how hard it is to change when the person most important in your life just says "too little too late" and "I know you will just go back to the same person you were". I understand her fears, but what I totally disagree with was her rationalizing this other relationship. When I finally confronted her about it she said she did not tell me because I would have taken it the wrong way - they were in fact "only friends". Well what about the emails I found a couple months ago that date back to a year ago? In them she was telling a female friend (who also saw what was going on) how this new friend made her feel 'special' and that she deserved so much more out of her life. And how she loved spending time with this person.<BR>So when you say "we are just friends", don't kid yourself and don't think your husband doesn't know as well.<P>It is not that he doesn't love you that he is getting mean - it is that he is so hurt and betrayed that anger is the only way he can deal with things. It often takes a lot to "hurt" guys, but believe me what you are doing now is ripping your husband's heart out. And yet you are surprised at how he is acting? Your kidding right? I'm sure that you have said and done some mean things over the past few weeks/months, but now that he has started giving it back, you rationalize some more by saying "this is how much I mean to him"?<P>>>>>>> "will I leave my husband of 15 years >>>>>> FOR him? NO"<P>Sounds to me like you already have. Maybe not for the OM specifically, but the "friendship" you two have did/does more harm then you seem willing to admit.<P>I really am sorry to sound so attacking in this post, but ya hit a trigger with me. A lot of what you said sounds like it is coming out of my wife's mouth, and I KNOW she is rationalizing her actions.<P>Like I said before, no one knows all the facts of any marriage except the two that are involved. But places like this site allow us to share and learn from others. Sometimes we like what we read, sometimes we don't - But it should at least allow us to see things from a different perspective.<P>Finally, I am always the optimist and I do somehow hope/pray that you have a change of heart and that the changes you see in your husband are for "real" and are "for good". I know it took my wife leaving, before I truly allowed God into my life to begin his work in reshaping who I am. And I will be honest to you, I HAVE changed and am no longer the person I used to be. If my wife finds it in her heart to forgive and try just "One more time" I can tell you our marriage will be a great one. But for her to do that takes courage and trust - not just "trust in me", but rather trust in God and His desire for us to do whatever it takes to try and save our marriage.<P>God Bless you and your husband.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by new_beginning:<BR><B><BR>And this time, what's different, is that I have found someone new, someone who already has done the work, someone who doesn't have to change, someone who hasn't cheated on me or anyone else, someone who brings comfort, not pain.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>new_beginning,<P>Yes - someone new. I bet at the time you met your husband you probably felt the same feelings for him. I will tell you that there are very few really good men out there today. And what you need to realize is that being "in love" with someone or being attracted to someone causes us to put blinders on our eyes. It is only after the initial relationship high that we are on, wears off, that we realize that relationships and love take work.<P>If you are going to compare this new person to your husband, your husband does not stand a chance. You are not comparing "apples to oranges", you are comparing an apple right off the tree to one that has been in your fruit bowl for a long time. Sure the new apple looks so good and tasty, but don't forget that over time that new apple will also take on some of the bruises and discoloration you view your husband as having.<P>Don't compare your husband to this new man. First decide if you love your husband enough to save the marriage without thinking about anyone else. Someone else should not be the reason you end your marriage.<P>Ever wonder why there are so many 2nd and 3rd divorces in this country? People keep searching for the "perfect spouse". Once the newness wears off, they are on to the next "apple".<P>Be careful.<P>

sotired,<P>Don't worry, there is no comparison between my stbx and the new man. <P>If you've read all that I've read (which would be quite the task, since I've posted over 2000 times! ) you understand that I still hold a very deep love for my stbx. However, he has hurt me by cheating for the fifth and final time. <P>Thank you for your concern, sincerely.<P>

ok, I will try to respond, not defend. I can, beleive it or not, be completly truthful about the situation. Last night I spent the entire evening asking myself again, for the kids, for the kids could you just do it???? The answer is always " NO " I cannot and will not continue thinking that low of myself, I know you guys think all marriages should be saved, I have pondered this long and hard . I have had to come to terms with the fact that the exact issues that keep my husband and I apart, are the ones that make it immpossible for him to see that there is a problem. He has severe self esteem issues, that cause him to be arrogant, self rightous and egotistical, OK I sound mean right? well trust me on this one. I asked him 9 months ago to please , please be honest with the counselor because until he could work on those issues , there would be no hope for us!<BR>GOD did I want him to. I am pretty sure he and his counselor must have talked about the weather, and who was going to win the world series, because even though I did see some change, it is not that I even thought it was fake, It was so robotic, and forced, I could tell what the true feelings inside him were, but he would never admit it. I begged him, please tell me why that upset you, IT DIDNT BOTHER ME! All I ever wanted was the ability for him to be open and honest with me.So anyway, I watched him for 9 months try to circumvent the issues rather than deal with realities.In keeping with that thought, please understand that I cannot and will not go back to that form of marriage. If it takes this divorce and 3 years for that man to finally take a good hard look at himself..............it will be well worth it. I know in my heart that the way he is , is the way he is. Please do not keep saying he can change......I have tried for a very long time to get him to see the problems, 7 years....I didnt know what the problem was for the first 7-8 years. All I knew was that I assumed thats all there was, and all I deserved. I have dealt with my issues, not all of them, some are still hard.I will help him, as I always have , I will work with him, I have no intention of crippling him financially. I need to move forward and maybe find out who I am before we can ever think about being together again. He only knows the little girl I was, that allowed herself to be neglected and taken for granted for a long time. Then one who nagged about it for years, and now the woman that says, I have had enough. MEN we never start out our marriages saying I want to live with someone, wash thier dirty underwear for years, and then divorce them. I wanted a partner, a friend...........not a business associate.Your situations may all be different.

PS...........Just so you know, I could have written this letter 3 years ago, before I ever met this other man. It would have been exactly the same, except I would have said............But how can I leave? What will everyone think? I love our friends<P>I love the image we project<P>Pathetic reasons to stay in a marriage, but It did allow my children to have more years of a 2 parent household, unfortunatly they had to see how we so dysfunctionally related to each other. My husband recently told me, This marriage worked fine for his parents.<BR>I tried it that way for a long time, it is my turn to finally show my children that there are ways of expressing emotion and feelings without having to supress them all the time!

nikkilynn2,<P>I so wish we could all live in a that fairy tale land of marriage with the white picket fence and all the rest. Unfortunately as you, me, and everyone else her can agree, that place does not seem to exist. I am glad you were not offended by my comments. Like I wrote, I don't know your whole situation or how long things have been going on like they are for you. And I am not isolating your husband when I say that men can change. It is just that I truly believe ANYONE can change if they truly want to. <P>You wrote something interesting in your email about how if it took him 3 years to change and grow up, and during that time you learned more about yourself, then maybe you can see a future together. I really think that is a very powerful statement. To me it says that you do still love him, but that you both need to discover who you are as individuals. I think we all need that. In healthy marriages I think that happens over time - each spouse discovers more about themselves and about their partner everyday.<P>One theory I have is that problems occur when one spouse is "growing" faster than the other in terms of maturity and self-awareness. This could be the case you two are in. Maybe all those years ago you began to realize that you were changing and your needs were changing. Maybe your husband was not on the same level - maybe he was not ready to look into himself like that - for whatever reason. Now with everything you both are going through, maybe this is the "shock to his system" that woke him up.<P>Listen, I admire your determination to stick things out for as long as you have. I don't think that makes you appear weak, rather the opposite. I think that you were/are strong enough to put your children first in your life. I think you were strong enough to put your marriage first, ahead of your feelings. I think that maybe your husband was the "weak" one in your marriage.<P>You kind of allude to it in your posts that you've come to the realization that it is "you" that allows other people to have control over your life and it is "you" that allows people to walk all over you. I think you are right. Once people realize that, I think they are more able to deal with others on an even playing field.<P>I guess that all I was trying to say in my original post, was that maybe it isn't necessary to throw the "baby out with the bath water". But again, I don't know the "ins and outs" of your relationship. Only you know that. And I think we are all here searching, hoping, and praying at least in some small respect that there is a way for us to save our marriages - aren't we? Wouldn't you like to put the pieces back together if it was possible that the future would be great with your husband?<P>Finally one quick thing about "change", because again I was there personally: When I began to work on my life and my role as a husband last year (after my wife exploded in anger she had been harboring for 3 years), I too seemed robotic and "yes" I had to force myself to do new things. Anytime you try something new you need to force it - Remember when you learned to ride a bike? Did you just get up there and start peddling like some Olympic athlete? Or did you flounder around, falling down, running into things and looking like an idiot? (I know I did ).<P>I think it is more important in the consistency of the change in the person than the first impressions of the change? Does that make sense?? Sure the first time a spouse does something totally out of character, it may seem fake and forced. Guess what it probably is! But the bigger issue deals with "are those changes continuing?". And does the spouse seem to be getting used to the changes? Are they making the changes "just for you" or do they realize that they need to change for "themselves".<P>Listen, as strange as it sounds, I do care about EVERYONE here at MB. No matter what role they play in their marital problems, I think we all agree it sucks. My wife just emailed me to say that she filed for divorce yesterday. It sucks.<P>Sometimes I have learned more from the posts that disagree with my thinking, than from the ones that agree. Please take my posts in that spirit. It is good to hear your thoughts, because I believe my wife may have some similar ones. I only wanted to let you know what I am thinking, just in case you possibly see something similar in your husband.<P>And let me leave on the note of the "other person": Nothing personal, but no matter what you say or what anyone says, having that kind of "other friend" at this time in a marriage is wrong. Its wrong for your spouse, its wrong for your kids to see, but most importantly it is wrong for YOU. Why you? Because down the road if you continue with your decision to leave, you need to be 100% sure that you did it because you did not love your husband enough to stay with him anymore - not because you think you could love (or did love) this new person. That way you would not run the risk of doubting your decision. Plus, if you are truly looking to grow in your inner strength, then getting through this all by yourself will be a good move in that direction.<P>And Hey if this guy is really that great and nice, then he should have absolutely no problem with waiting around until everything is finalized with your marriage. <P>Mike

Mike,<P>This is just an aside - but what's wrong with a plant? <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>Mike,<P>This is just an aside - but what's wrong with a plant? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nellie1,<P>Watcha talkin 'bout? It has been a long day and I'm trying to make out what your question pertains to????? Little more for the currently brain-dead me...<P>Just got an email this AM from wife telling me she filed divorce papers yesterday.... That just ruined my whole day. Kinda new it was going to happen, but that does not take the pain out of it<P>Mike

Hi mike<BR> Just to let you know, I do not feel offended at all. I understand what you are saying, and you have conceded that you do not know everything about my situation. I am kinda stubborn, not a bad thing all the time.<BR>I just cannot tell you the level of frustration I have had for so many years, were there some up times? yes, but they were never fueled internally, always externally. Such as buying something new, going on vacation with our "group of friends" Whenever it was the 2 of us, it was sad. I am sick and tired of watching myself get depressed over my relationship, as I have said, It took me a long time and alot of growing to figure out what was wrong. I have recently read the book "good people, bad marriages" There is a quote in there that scared me to death. <P>It talks about certain personality types, It says "The sicker the mind, The more intense the desire to sustain a relationship at all costs. These people dont care why thier partners stay, they dont care if they are unhappy. They just want them to stay. They create as many binders as they can............Children, family, financial ties, guilt, fear etc.They dominate and beg to be dominated! " <BR>I almost cried when I read that. My husband knew 3 years ago how bad it was for me...so he decided it was time to remodel the kitchen,instead of counseling. At the same time, he insisted I become half owner in the business by signing for the building. I was terrified, but felt so unable to stand up and say " I dont know where we will be in 10 years , Do you really want to do this?"<P>I didnt want it, but that is the manipulation crap that he has always done to me. 4 years ago, I got furniture for the same reason.I allowed it, how stupid am I. 7 years ago when I flat out asked him for a divorce, I got this house bought!!!!!!!!!<P>AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH<P>It is so immpossible for him to see this, I have tried. He says it is coincidence. So here you have a man who cant and wont even see the problem, so when he tries to pretend he is handling his issues,I know he isnt, because he doesnt even see the problem. I had a dream a few months ago that sums it up completly.<P>I came downstairs and found him lifting up the furniture and vaccuming under it, I had just done it, so there wasnt anything to vaccum under the furniture, but around the rest of the room was dirt, and dust. He wasnt going to vaccum that part!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <P><BR>It scared me to death. well hope you understand better

Mike,<P>Sorry I wasn't clearer. I was referring to this:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>after my mom's first birth (my sister) in the hospital, my dad came to her room and brought her a PLANT!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think a plant is rather sweet, and it is something that will last for a lot longer than flowers. I still have a plant that my H's co-workers gave us after my almost 5 year old was born. <P>I am sorry about the divorce papers. There is no way to be prepared. My H filed six weeks after he left, and I was served the day after our son's 13th birthday. The judge granted him a divorce 17 months later, the day before the 26th anniversary of when we met.

Just read another post that was about a husband who was still willing to take his wife back if she seeked help.......for anger and such.<BR>It made me feel bad but, I just am not strong enough to wait...perhaps earlier in the marriage. I guess I am afraid of being on my own with the kids, afraid of what lies ahead, but I have never shrunk from a challenge before, and I dont see how having my husband back in my life for those reasons are good. <P>I think it is possible to "kill" love, I am sorry, it sounds terrible. I also reread an earlier post here, that says marriage is 50-50, maybe there were things I was doing that were wrong.....ABSOLUTLY<P>unfortunatly, most of those things I did were in response to unmet needs, struggle for power......and most of all struggle for honesty.I am probably one of the most forgiving people in the world, I have had to forgive alot, trust me. and lets not forget how gosh darn stubborn I am. By the way, I have to ask you this Mike..... Do you think I am a verbal person? I think I am, and I have always been very good at trying to reach to the bottom of an issue. Do you think I would ever , ever let something drop easily? let something go unsaid? I feel like I have a apple hanging over my head, and everytime I go to bite it , it gets put just out of my reach. After a while you end up not wanting the apple anymore.

Hi nikki,<P>I know how you feel <P>One thing hon, and I mean this completely sincerely... <P>You said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>unfortunatly, most of those things I did were in response to unmet needs, struggle<BR>for power......and most of all struggle for honesty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Find a way to take <B>ALL</B> responsibility for your actions off of him. It will help you, in the long run. Just like his abuse is not your fault (<I>EVER, EVER, EVER</I>) what you have chosen to do is not his. <P>Once I did that, I could go forward with MY life, and carry good memories (instead of only the bad ones) with me. <P>In my case, there was not the kind of abuse that you endured (although as I have said many times, infidelity absolutely is a kind of abuse), so I always felt a love for my stbx. But my desire to not make life worse for him grew stronger when I realized that neither of us had a **good enough** reason to cheat. There are none.<P>Have a great Friday!!<P>Hugs, Sheryl

Thanks sheryl, <P>I know, my counselor and I are working on it now. Doesnt matter why I did something, it doesnt excuse it. I think thats how we get stuck in these patterns. The worst part is , is that I had these patterns from about age 10. The longer you are in a marriage, the harder it is to stop sometimes also. Is safer to go back to the "way you are with<BR>eachother", than to try something new.<P>Mike, question for you, how long were you married?<P><BR>Thanks all have a great weekend, will try to check back, but it will be a busy one here.<P> ME

nikkilynn2,<P>First, I am married for 4 1/2, dating exclusively 4 before that, so total almost 9. I say almost 9 because I am the type of person that when I meet and "go out" with someone steady, we might as well be married. I never view a relationship as ending sometime - Its just not me. When we got married, as far as "we" were concerned, other than moving in with each other, the dynamics stayed the same.<P>I guess I have to say I am a little confused, not about you, but about your husband. They say (who is "they" anyway), but "they say that you have one spouse's side of the story and you have the other's side as well and usually the truth is somewhere in the middle" - But all I can go by here is your version. Which is fine, but I can't get a grasp on your husband. Does he WANT to change? I mean down deep in his heart, do anything to make it work, type of change?<P>Maybe that is where I differ from him. Its not that I just want a second chance with my wife, it is that I KNOW that is all I would need. Through all this I have learned so much about myself and about my wife as well. One of the most important things I have learned is that I can love someone 1000% but if I don't know how to show that love to them effectively (in the ways they need to see it), they may think I don't love them at all! That is where I was at.... I kept doing things that I thought would make her happy, but they weren't. Why? Because I stopped thinking about how she wanted me to show her my love. I am now beginning to know that and I also know that it is not just something you learn once, it is something that is constantly changing.<P>If I love her so much, and I do, then I would have no problem just changing HOW I showed that love. My part of the marital problems - I did not do that. Her part? She never truly told me. Sure she would say things in passing here and there, but she never TOLD me what she wanted. She was always afraid of how I would react. She was too insecure with herself and thus with our relationship.<P>My train of thought to you really focuses on if your husband is in a similar state of mind. If he is, then that is what I mean about giving him another chance. But if he is just going through the motions of change, then you may be right in your decision to move on...<P>And like you posted before, who knows where that will lead the two of you.<P>Have a great weekend. I'll keep ya in my prayers!<P>Mike

I know Mike, and all.......It is confusing, not only to all of you, but to me also.I would be the last to be able to tell you his side of the story, because, I cant figure it out either. I truly beleive most people in my situation would have been gone a long time ago. You have a man , who has known for 7 years that I have wanted to leave........<P>Everyday? No, sometimes I was just too busy to think about it, and you get in the zone, where you ask yourself......is there anything better?, Is being alone better? This is Ok I guess.What the hell do I want anyway?<P>OK , so little by little you notice the distance, the inability to maintain eye contact, the big thing for me was the total lack of communication, and limits. he would never ever put any limits on anything for me. <BR>I could go out and stay out, no questions asked. I have to say , I dont know when that all started but it has been years. We usually go out together with our friends or to functions, but never really see eachother the whole night. I do not think we have gone out alone in 5 years. It would be horrible,We would have to sit and talk.<BR>So anyway, I will stop with the details, I think I have told you guys every aspect of my marriage I can.So last October, I sit on the porch and realize how empty our relationship is..not the first time, but this is when it got to its peak for me. So , he knows this, because I sit and tell him . He distracts by little things, all the wrong things for me. Then come the holidays, who has time to think about anything with 3 children. There are parties to look forward to etc. I know it is wrong, but neither of us want to face this, so we do anything to keep our minds clear, then the holidays pass, by february, I am as disconnected as they come. He knows this, and walks on eggshells (I hate this ) Please talk to me, please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tell me you acknowledge how awful this is!!!!!!!!!!<BR>I know that saying something will send him to a tailspin, he will do whatever...buy this or that. He for some reason wants me to stay, regardless of how bad it is. I have tried before to get him to counseling and only get remodeling or furniture. I dont want this anymore!!!!!!!!!!! Things got much worse, Then I finally just say I am done, really done. I tell him how I feel, that he is wonderful person, we do all the surface stuff fine, but it is a hollow marriage. He tells me , he doesnt understand, I meet all his needs............<BR>I spend one month trying to get him to understand how I feel, what the problem is. He admits this hasnt been good, he hasnt liked it either, but thought it would get better, I suggest counseling, he says he will go. Before we end up going , he keeps saying he doesnt think its really bad at all,he doesnt see the problem!!!!!! Now he is changing his mind again. I refuse joint counseling, because I am so angry at him nothing will get accomplished. I start individual, as does he......I tell him what he needs to work on in order for us to go through joint counseling. He comes home from his first session A NEW MAN. All the things I have been saying for all the years , he has discovered in one session. Probably not real change. So yada yada yada, we try joint one time with a innocent bystander, after 3 months of individual. There is only anger on my part, and he denies everything I say. The counselor knows I am done. So then we keep going to counseling on our own. Try a joint session one more time, is futile. I am done, but cant leave, and he is still trying to buy stuff or go out to dinner, anything to just make me get over all this. Is he doing what I need ...no, is he saying this sucks, we need to stop..... NO. He just doesnt want me to leave, but all I see are the same actions I have ever seen.I want him to say I am not willing to tolerate this behavior or this empty marriage anymore. He tries to buy a pool a nice pool too. I say it is up to you, dont buy it for me. He says he isnt doing it for me, it is for the kids. When I tell him I am filing after the first of the year he goes wacko, He wants it now........right away<BR>Cancels the pool , saying now financially he cant do it.I say, it is getting back at me through the children, he denies this and says I am manipulating his actions.He goes and buys a new car though, a very expensive car!!!!!!!!!!! I give up . Whatever he says or does is rational, and whatever I do or say is manipulating. Was the pool a test of counseling? absolutly did he fail? yes<BR>am I a real ***** ? yes, but I got the answer I was looking for. Nothing has changed, and it never will..........I hope all this answers your questions. I feel like I have monopolized you all.Thanks , I am off on a nice get away trip for a day. Have fun all <P>

You have answered my question - I think...<P>It does indeed sound like he is not ready to make the changes you need. Will he ever be? Only God knows the answer to that one. The couneling was a step in the right direction, but it sounds like he ended up where so many have before - he starts with the change, then reverts back to the same old things...<P>If he was doing things that he never has done before, or that he did a long time ago, that would be different. But from what you say (and remember, we can only go by what you are saying here), it sounds like that was not the case.<P>I have sadness in my heart for both of you - for him in not seeing that he can not fix things "his way", and for you in being with this "good" man who does not really understand how to show his love for you. I say that because it sounds like he is trying, only he keeps trying the same things again and again. The one great lesson I learned from my situation is that you can love someone with your whole heart, BUT you need to be able to learn how to express that love in terms that the other person can feel it. We all need to be loved in different ways - some like to be touched and hugged, but don't need to hear "I love you" being said - others need those words more than anything and the physical holding comes second. The challenge is in not thinking how you need to be loved, but in realizing HOW your partner needs to be loved. Sometimes that is a very tough lesson to learn.<P>I will still pray for both of you and for your marriage. While it seems as if you have given up any hope for the marriage's survival, I take a different look with hope. I have a firm belief that if it is meant to be, God's love can heal any marriage - any marriage. When you think of all that HE can do, fixing a broken marriage has to be a simple task for His power.<P>I pray that you both have the strength to emotionally survive the coming months and years and I pray for your children who unfortunately are innocent bystanders in the whole situation.<P>God Bless.

Thanks Mike, <BR>Prayers are definitly in order.............. I truly beleive that we can make this work, when the hurt heals, or at least diminishes.I still love my husband, but unfortunatly the years of neglect and lack of communication have truly caused anger and sadness that I may not ever get over. It is a sad situation for everyone . Thanks for the support, it has been great Coll

You're more than welcome. If you ever have any questions on what he may be thinking, post it here - I may be able to grant some insight. Like I said before, it sounds like your husband and I are somewhat similar in our past actions.<P>It may be that God brought us (you and me) both here to get some insight into what our spouses are thinking. Believe me, I would be extremely happy to find out what it is she is going through and what, if anything, I could do to help our marriage. That is the hardest thing right now - since she has no trust in me anymore, she does not see any reason to "open up" to me AT ALL. She says things like "it is none of your business anymore - we are not together - I don't owe you anything - I don't need to tell you what I am thinking".... I on the other hand, was telling her everything I was thinking. Finally I began to get fed up and I pulled-back with my emotions.<P>Thanks for the sharing.<BR>God Bless<BR>Mike

Hi Mike, <BR>Didnt know if you would still find this to read or not, but seeing as my husband is moving out today, I wanted to write. I do not feel a whole lot right now, except that I feel as though I have let him down, or thrown him to the wolves.I cant tell you how weird it has been to feel like you have been living with your brother for a long time.I guess I am only sad because I keep rethinking about clips from our marriage , and dont remember too many times when I really thought he was happy. I wish to god I could just once see on his face something that would remind me he loves me. I know how hard he is trying to make the kids the center of his life right now, but there are so many times I question not if he loves them, but how he loves them. I think he loves them as much as he is able to, and I think he loved me as much as he could, but unfortunatly it wasnt enough for me. I am apprehensive about the future, I do not know if I have what it takes to be a single mom, but I will surely try as hard as I can, I know he will be there for them, and that is all I ask. I want you to know I have listened and read all I can on this subject, and have tried as hard as I can. I just give up. I keep hearing people say, maybe some time apart will help, but I dont know if that is something that can be changed or not, especially since he didnt even understand what was lacking. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH<BR>Do you know I do not even have one song that makes me remember our relationship, early on. <BR>I guess because we were never allowed to talk about it, It makes me sad that all those feelings were there for me, and I never got any reinforcement from him. well I am rambling now...... actually beating myself up. Thanks for all the questions you have placed at me. I have been listening. thanks again

Well today is the first morning I have officially been separated, How does it feel?<BR>I have been unable to sleep in, I wake up at early hours, very weird for me. Maybe a good thing because I will have to be up early to get the kids off to school by myself. I am not a morning person. I am going to go to 8 am mass today, Not because I feel I HAVE to but because I want to......what a nice feeling.I am sure my stbx will be at 10 am , and will want to take my daughter. She cried last nite because she wanted to stay at her dads and he was out late with friends. I was hurting for her, but we cuddled in bed and fell asleep, I hope she is ok this morning. He seems as cold as a rock ,except when it comes to the kids, has reiterated that this now is a business deal between us............... HELLO!!!!! THAT IS WHY OUR MARRIAGE FELL APART. I felt way to much like a business partner, rather than a woman. I know it is a defense mechanism for him, but he doesnt realize that I have seen this side all along. I do not think I have loved him for a long time, very long. I have stayed out of fear of the unknown, fear of blowing his world apart...and fear of repercussions . I feel awful for not doing this sooner, but I knew how mad he would be at me and I was afraid.Wow I dont think I even realized what I wrote, that is terrible. The worse part is I tried several times to tell him how I felt, and he didnt want me to leave this marriage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is it better to stay or go? people are making me feel bad about this, he is such a nice guy.etc, They dont live here !!!!! It is hard to be married to Mr nice guy, when you dont have a relationship!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>well enough venting for today,hope you had a nice weekend