Sorry, I am just a pain in the butt here......I guess I need to talk with my counselor about this , I still for the life of me cant get over this sense of responsibility to him.I tried to stay out of his way while he was moving things out, but I was hanging his delicates and such . I wanted to help, but didnt know how, I want him so much to understand why this happened, and I know he doesnt get it.I wish I could get over this one thing........I have told him, I thought too much of him to stay married to him, and I mean it with all my heart.

nikkilynn2<P>Sorry you had such a long weekend.... It is a tough time all-around. One thing you need to know though is that your husband is probably right now in the most pain he has ever felt in his life, and unfortunately he blames you. I know that stinks to hear, but it is only human nature. Remember that you have felt that things were "sour" for a long time - you even say that you can't remember how long it has been since you felt in love with him. Well for him this is all brand new - sure there were signs, but it sounds like he missed the signs altogether.<P>The bottom line is that who ever's fault it is/or was does not matter to him right now. Right now he is in a typical "knee-jerk" reaction - He is going to do all he can to protect what is left of his feelings and his heart. Don't look for any signs of love right now - you most likely will not see any. He may get selfish, mean and cruel. While I totally don't agree with it and tried my best not to do it to my wife when she left, I did often slip and say mean things. Remember that you both have known each other for so long, you both know just what to say and do to hurt each other. For your sake, try not to answer his anger with more anger. Just try to get through it - you will feel much better about yourself down the road for doing just that.<P>-----------------------------------------<BR>"I wanted to help, but didnt know how, I want him so much to understand why this happened, and I know he doesnt get it.I wish I could get over this one thing........I have told<BR>him, I thought too much of him to stay married to him, and I mean it with all my heart."<BR>-----------------------------------------<P>OK, here you need to watch out. My wife said something similar and I have to tell you it is not what I wanted to hear at all - It made me furious and angry - I wanted to scream. Try to resist saying anything like this to him - Youre right, he doesn't understand and it will be a long, long time until he does - if he ever does. Bottom line is that you have crushed him and his heart. I am not saying this at all to "hurt" you nikki, I can only tell you from my own personal experience.<P>Finally, I am so glad you are going to mass BECAUSE you want to - I really believe that if you have God in your life right now, He will direct you in the way you need to go. Only be sure to "listen" to what He has to say to you, even if they are things you don't want to hear. Keep strong for your kids and do whatever you need to, to NOT put them in the middle. Remember they are innocent bystanders in all of this.<P>And finally, remember that this is going to be tough for ALL concerned. Don't let him fool you, for as much pain as you are in now and may be in for a while, his will be twice as bad - Why? Because he is the one being "left". Also remember that anger is often just a mask to shadow the inner pain.<P>God Bless.

Hey mike<BR>Good to hear from you, hope all went well for you this weekend. I know, my feelings are all over the place right now, and it is easy to lose sight of why this is happening, so I am trying to just " go with " whatever I am feeling. Just took a nice 2 mile walk, to try and clear my head and focus. I need the mental escape, I know he is doing alot out of terror right now, and I keep that in mind.I talked it over with my counselor, and she reminded me behind rage is always terror. I also know he is trying to save his feelings , and self esteem right now, so I am trying to help by being as agreeable to things as I can. I have tried to talk to him about feelings and such , and he cannot and wont engage in a conversation.I get the extreme of what I usually get "thats enough" "It is over" etc. Every thing I could possibly want to talk to him about is off limits. I know this is a typical male reaction, but does it sound to you like this is a man who absolutly didnt want this? I really think otherwise sometimes. I just think it is his nature, he doesnt win, so he is taking his toys and going home. so to speak! I didnt think it was a game though, I think he did. Well enough psychobabble about me, how did your weekend go? I know it was a tough one for you... hope it was at least fair. Chat later

nikkilynn2<P>OK, OK, lets re-word that: "typical male reaction" I think it is better said that it is a typical "PERSON being left reaction"!<P>Seriously though, it sounds like besides all the bad things and the "junk", the one thing your husband believed in was "trying" to fix things - even though it was in spurts and not followed through upon. From one outsider's perspective, to me that is/was commitment - commitment to you. I know it is hard for you to see that right now, but his commitment is/was a good thing isn't/wasn't it? How many people are here because their spouses never fully committed to there marriages? Or had problems keeping that commitment?<P>So now here is this man who in his own mind is committed to making things work. But wait, not only have you taken his wife away, his kids away (in a sense), basically his whole world away, you have even taken away his commitment to the marriage. Because he is now learning that no matter how committed a partner is to making a marriage work, if the other is no longer committed, then WHATEVER you do is not going to help. <P>Nikki, let me tell you that is one of the worst parts of this whole thing for me - it is like my wife holds all the cards and I have/had no control over anything. I am not writing about who is right or wrong, I am only relaying to you what he is most likely FEELING.<P>What saved me to this point is prayer (and boy have I been praying!). From day one of her leaving I prayed to God that if would do nothing else, would he please remove the anger from my heart. I knew that the anger is a defense mechanism and that it usually does no good to anybody (including yourself). Amazingly everytime I felt (or feel) anger coming on, I stop and say a quick little prayer - "God please remove these thoughts from my mind - They are not how I truly feel. I love my wife and as much as I am hurting, I don't want to hurt her." <P>Even with His help, it was and still is a constant battle. The toughest part is when she acts like nothing about this is bothering her.<P>With his anger I wouldn't use "terror" as a word to describe it - rather I would call it pain. A severe pain that goes deep to his heart. A pain that he can do nothing to relieve (or so it seems to him right now). The anger is a temporary fix - it is very hard to feel love and anger at the same time. Since his love for you is what is driving the pain, by getting angry he is pushing his love for you away and hence the pain. It is his way of dealing with the loss. But under no circumstances should you relate his current actions to how he ever felt about you in the past - that would only you trying to rationalize your actions. I am not saying this to hurt you, I just know from what I have read other women post here, that this seems to be a pervailent belief: That when they keep pushing for a divorce and they leave and they inflict pain upon their spouses (whether on purpose or not) AND THEN there spouse begins to recover some dignity and strength, the women say "see this is how he always felt about me" - that is so unfair. How the spouse is reacting today is in DIRECT response to how his wife has been treating him - it has nothing to do with how he truly felt about her.<BR>-------------------------------<P><BR>My weekend went well, surprisingly. I am now officially 30 years old and celebrated with friends, both old and new. I went to the movies one night with my brother and his wife and it just so happens that one of her friends came along as well (a female friend!). I kinda smelled a setup Truth is they are so worried about me that I think they just want me to see that there are other women out there deserving of my love. <P>I did discover one thing this past weekend though: I now see how easy it is for my wife to be doing what she is doing. You see I am the one at home in our house day-in and day-out. She left and moved to another state ("for a while" in her words). This past weekend being in a new environment and away from home, I could see how easy it was to forget - there was nothing to remind me of her (except my ring which I still wear about 90% of the time). Out of site, out of mind...<P>But on my way home this morning it all came back to me - and that lets me know that someday, no matter how far she runs, it will catch up to her.<P>Thanks for asking about my weekend though! Turning 30 was not as hard as I thought it would be!<P>Mike

OH........ a date kind of , good for you. I know what you are thinking , because I sit here pondering myself. Would I ever be ready for a new relationship? The thought of it scares the hell out of me. I am doing so much thinking and soul searching that it is pathetic. I allowed myself to become a doormat throughout my marriage, as far as emotional needs. I have so much anger and resentment about it that. <P>Mike , I have to say this, I am into this honesty thing.I know how you are feeling , and I see some similarities in how my husband must be feeling. BUT I dont appreciate being told that I wasnt committed to this marriage......Remember I have 15 years under my belt here, wasnt a question of committment. I tried and tried to make it better.....and asked him to try. Sometimes these things happen. I spoke with my mom last night, who has been a great support. She had asked me 6 years ago why my husband never gave me a kiss, or hug. I told her at that point "It is no big deal" that is how we are. I know now it was my way of pretending I didnt need it. When we married, I do not think I gave alot of thought to what I wanted, how I wanted my marriage to be. I was only 22 years old, I feel as though when we got married, anything I did want would have to wait because of his education. I dont want to repeat myself so lets just say....I dont think he ever had any intention of looking at what I wanted from this marriage, because if it wasnt his education, it was always something. <P>When I was 30 years old I went through alot of introspection, and reevaluated my life. I think 30 is a good age to do that. So anyway, I knew then what I wanted, and long story short, I have waited 8 years for it. Was I committed to this marriage? yes. I did what I could do to try and make sure I was not cheating myself. I know to you, this is no comfort, but sometimes you have to be honest with yourself. Why should you expect your spouse to be responsible for your happiness? I have run around like a nut trying to BUY happiness, because I was not getting it at home, I read a passage in a book that said "People in bad marriages sometimes try to buy happiness, they buy things, do home remodeling and buy new cars to go nowhere with" This is us. <P>SO, WHAT IS MY POINT?<BR>Well, sometimes you have to look at the fact that you are just not good for eachother, we have bought out alot of bad in eachother, trying to keep this marriage together, and I see how it has affected my children. I woke up yesterday and asked myself, when did this marriage become not a choice of being happy, but of just having to stay married? When you are married, it should be a choice of wanting to be together, on both parts. I also think I will never enter into another relationship, I am so discouraged by what happened to this one. I dont know if I can ever trust another man to not take me for granted again. I had so much love and caring and tenderness to give. It feels like all the years of giving it were in vain. I know he didnt mean it and I dont really blame him, but it happened, and you cant take it back. I gave him another chance 8 years ago, and the trust is not there now. I know your wife has hurt you greatly, but I am not so sure she tried very hard to save your marriage. I did. I wish I could help you understand her more, but she obviously did not feel the huge moral and social pressure I felt to save the marriage no matter how unhappy I was. I could go on and on, as you know..... But I have to tell you, if I am ever going to be with my husband again, it will be because he is what I want, not because I have to be.He has a chance to win me back right now, but I know he is done. I bought him a book for fathers day, it was "winning your wife back before it is too late. " He said it was male bashing... He wanted me the way I was.... You seem like you would do anything to win her back, he didnt want to try. With these actions he has told me " I want you, I love you......but I want you to be happy with who I am, and what I can give" <P>OK I am done lecturing now, I apologize for the length again, but it is a hard time for me. I would love him to just once think of me instead of getting his own way. That is what is important to him, winning, I am not a trophy. Well, my daughter has a part in the mass today so I must leave, I hope you dont mind how much I keep repeating myself, I feel like I am talking to my husband in trying to make him understand what happened, but he would never allow me to talk this long without discounting everything I say. That is so frustrating by the way..... as he says <BR>" that is only your perception of it" DUH<P>Have a good day, and if you never want to post with me again I will understand !!!!!<P>Bye Nikkilynn

P.S.<P>I will never be able to escape like your wife did, as you said, that is easy.I have 3 reminders every morning, and I wouldnt trade them for the world!!!!! I am living in our home, with these wonderful children, community and memories. I have had to face up to my decision, and let me tell you , it is not easy. I cant imagine how difficult it will be to deal with him or I dating and having to be seen with other people, but I do know when I see the look on his face of happiness with someone else, I will be jealous, because I couldnt put it there anymore. I brought only anxiety, and concern.<BR> ok, I am done babbling!!!!!!!!

No way man, I am done posting with you <P>I don't think I was clear in what I was trying to say in my last post. It was not a dagger aimed at you about commitment - really. I was only giving you some insight as to what your husband was now going through in his own mind (however right or wrong his thinking is). I give you a lot of credit for sticking things out - somewhere on this board this is a post about "earning the right to leave" and I think that you have "earned" that right. Don't misunderstand me, I still don't agree with divorce - don't think I ever will - but I am smart enough to realize that there are exceptions. And even more than that - I am no one to judge. I have friends who do some stupid things. I know people who do/did drugs. Am I still friends with them? Yes. Does that mean I agree with all they do - no. And to be honest, that is the kind of friend I like to have - someone who may have a difference in an opinion and voice it to me, but nevertheless accept me for who I am. <P>That is how I see our little exchange here.<P>On to the "making me happy" statement - ya hit a big one with me here. I think from reading your post you were talking more about you and your husband, so let me clarify my stance - I AGREE with you 100%. I believe happiness comes from within. Just as no one can MAKE you unhappy, no one can MAKE you happy. Sure they can contribute to your feelings, but you are the one responsible for how you feel at any given time. This was a big issue in our relationship - I always felt that she was always looking to me to make her happy. Did I fail at this - yes! Why? Because the deck was stacked against me. Anything/everything I did was never good enough to make her happy. I don't mean she did not appreciate everything I did, she did. She was very good at showing appreciation. But it was never enough to MAKE her happy.<P>I finally learned that nothing I did would make her happy because deep in her soul she is not happy. And the most frustrating thing is that it had very little to do with our relationship - very little. If you can bear with me, let me list just a few of the things that have happened in my wife's life in the past and over the four years of our marriage:<P>* Back in 8th or 9th grade there was some type of sexual abuse (never told me the details)<P>* Freshman year in college another sexual abuse situation (not sure how far it went)<P>* Her father is a very, very controlling man and has been her whole life<P>* 2nd year of marriage her lifelong dog died (she was extremely close to her)<P>* 2nd year of marriage she was diagnosed with a life threatening heart problem - She had to undergo an 8 hour procedure to fix it (and unfortunately it is still a problem today<P>* She switched careers 3 times since I have known her<P>* Our financial situation has always been tight - We married almost right out of college<P>* I started my own business which made things even harder ( I said to her that I needed her 100% support to do this and if she had ANY doubts, then I would not go through with it. I told her that the next three years would be very tough financially, but after that the business should be starting to pay off)<P>I went a little further than your husband in trying to make her happy. Whatever she expressed interest in, I backed her 100%. She decided to go back to school - we had no money whatsoever for it but I told her if I had to take a second job or another loan, I would do it in a heartbeat. Any hobby she started I would support. Basically anything she wanted within reason I supported her with. I am not saying that I am a martyr - far from it. And believe me when I say that she did a lot (a lot) for me everyday.<P>So when I say that our marriage was fairly healthy, it is not just me coloring the past. We really had a good beginning of a marriage. I have come to the conclusion though that the problem was two-fold: First she has never found true happiness in herself and she always looks to other people and/or things to make her happy. When that does not work she moves on. And second (probably the most damaging) she has this warped view of marriage, thinking that everyday should be a walk in the roses. She looks at other marriages only on their surface - she never stops to think what really goes on behind closed doors.<P>So now she comes to me and BLAMES ME for her unhappiness - not just for the past few years , but since I have known her. She even said to our counselor that "I was so much happier before I met Mike, ask any of my friends". Fortunately for me, she had been going to counseling with the rest of her family BEFORE me, so when she said that, the counselor snapped right back saying "Yes but xxxxx I know the xxxxx behind the mask".<P>Even throughout our counseling sessions (about six months), the one thing he kept telling me was that we could not even start working on the marriage until we get xxxxxx stable. So when she quit counseling, we had not even began to focus on the marital issues. If you ask me, part of that was because there were not that many to be focused upon.<P>Sorry for the length, but now you know most of our story (at least my version of it). Let me say again Nikki, that I don't believe in coloring the past. In fact for the first few months after she left, everyone was getting mad at me because I blamed myself for the whole thing. Only now can I see the reality of my relationship with her.<P>Would I take her back? In a heartbeat. You see no matter all the problems and unhappiness she had, we enjoyed each other's company immensly. We clicked, and I know that part of her reason for running is that she knows (she KNOWS) that if she is around me, we will continue to "click". Then all that is left for her to blame for her unhappiness is herself (and maybe the demons from her past). I still love her with all of my heart. Sure the passion left our marriage, but I am 100% sure that if she and I both allowed God back into the marriage, that the feelings of being "in love" would return.<P>But sometimes I guess it is easier to run from your past then to own up to it...<P>Nikki, don't ever think that I would stop posting here just because you disagree with me. And don't think that I am trying to judge you in anyway. I try to take on the role of devils advocate. I think that once I am strong enough, I will use what I have learned from my past to talk with couples who are considering marriage - maybe just to help "open their eyes" the reality of married life. I always knew that marriage would have its tough times, but my wife never saw it that way.<P>Continued prayers for you and your husband and children.<P>MIke<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited November 07, 2000).]

Good to know I havent made an enemy.....I hate when that happens.I am surprised with some of the things you wrote that she wouldnt give it a harder try, Seems like it is her issues being put on to you. I liked the part about backing her up regardless of what she wanted to do. I never got that, it was hysterical that I could support someone through something, and not be supported. My ideas were always crazy..........or blown off. I always felt like he was humoring me through alot. True feelings always came out in the way of a slam or something. Oh well, had a nice lunch today, got invited out from some people whom I think highly of, and they were pretty funny. They love us both, but can see how this all happened. Is sad, but the only thing now is keep the children a priority, and move forward. I do not know when I will be able to come to grips with this failure thing.........but I am glad it isnt when I am 70 years old, saying I should have. I also have to look at the bad side and say , when I am 70, I hope I dont say, what a huge mistake I made.<P> Oh and by the way if one more person asks me if he was having an affair, I think I will choke them ~~~~~~~~~ <BR>as far as I know and beleive in my heart, he has not. I would never say he never did, because that would mean I didnt think he was worthy enough for someone else. I just dont think he ever didnt have his needs met here, and he was always so busy with himself, I dont think there was time for anyone else. I do beleive in my heart if he was going to meet anyones needs it would have been mine.<BR>well have a good day, I am off to take a walk to clear my head again. 30 isnt old , just so you know! as I approach 40 in 2 years, 30 looks pretty darn good to me. bye