While i understand everyone's point. Here are some things to consider.<P>Abusive is abusive whether it be mental, emotional, or physical. By the way let's not forget sexual.<P>It comes in many forms.<P>Abusive is also deemed as one partner possing more power (for lack of a better word) in the relationship. Relationship's are meant to be 50/50. When there is an imbalance there is a problem. One using threats, or manipulating or coevercive ways to get what they need regardless of the effects or desires of others is consider an abusiver.<P>Whether or not a person stays in a relationship of abusive is irrevelant to whether or not the abusive is wrong. People who stay in abusive situations regardless of type and degree are suffering from low self-esteem. Again this factor varies to each situation.<P>So tired.....<BR>As for being the first person to remind someone that they put themselves in harms way. OH MY! The last effective thing you can do for someone is past judgement!!!! Actually i am sorry it IS the worst thing that one can do. Usually harsh statements will make someone return to the abusiver quicker. Acceapting resonsibility is very important but also a slow process depending on the individual.<P>Nellie.....<BR>While i am uncertain of your complete situation, i can feel the pain and anger from your words. It sounds as though you have suffered more than your share this year or two.....<BR>I hope the worst day in your future is BETTER then the BEST day in your past!!<P>New beginning....<BR>Thank you for understanding the reasoning.<BR>I didn't have to tell him abuse was a factor he knows this. I get tired of him telling me it was all my fault. He IN THE END failed me too. <BR>Please notice i am not naive enough to blame him solely.<P>But i refuse to let him think that he was always perfect.<P>No one deserves these pains or financial burdens....<BR>would it not be a great society if people could live up to their vows? Of coarse... but the cold hard reality is that people do not always love, honor, respect and cherish..... this is why divorce exists!<P>What some people in here find hard is that they didn't see the divorce coming and some can not cope with the fact that their partner left, this isn't a judgment on you if you got left.<P>Isn't it better that they did leave? After all they opened up your life to receive true love. As they couldn't give it to you. <P>take care of you and those close to you.<BR>

new beginning,<P>I have ALWAYS believed that abuse is the only reason for divorce, ever since I was a child. It has nothing to do with my current situation. It is always something I felt very strongly about, as strongly as some people feel about their religion. My H has been aware of my beliefs on that subject since shortly after we started dating. <P>Telling me that I am wrong to feel this way amounts to the same thing as my telling a Christian that there is no god. It is not only pointless to try, but is an attack on the basic belief system. My belief that divorce is wrong is just as much part of the core of who I am as the belief in god is for the religious. <P>looking ahead,<P>NO, NO, NO. A thousand times NO - it is NOT better that he left. When he was in the middle of his affair and still home, when he was constantly irritable and frequently inexplicably angry, when he was disappearing for hours at a time, etc.. etc. - I was still less unhappy and FAR FAR better off than I am now. And obviously the children were millions of times better off than they are now that their father as they knew him no longer exists. He completely destroyed their idea of what their father was. <P>And that is a bunch of cr** about their not being able to give true love. The vast majority of spouses who leave a long term marriage with no warning are suffering from depression or other mental illness, and it has NOTHING to do with being able to give love, except that people who are depressed are temporarily incapable of doing so. The appropriate course of action is NOT to desert their family, but to get treatment for their illness.

nellie,<P>it was with a heavy heart that I wrote what I did to you... it was NOT an attack. <P>I would never attack anyone for their belief system.<P>Sigh.

Your belief system is fine.<BR>Everyone has to have something to believe in.<BR>But tell me this. Does it make you feel good that your husband sleeps around? That he likes touching other woman? Do you like waiting for him not knowing where he is? Do you want your daughter thinking that she should stay with a man that runs around? Disrespecting her? Possible responsible for a disease he may pass along? Do you want your son to grow up thinking that women are just objects to be conquered? That if your wife isn't fulfilling then by all means gratify yourself with someone else until the mood passes? <BR>Do you think all his actions do not affect your disposition with your children, relatives and your own worth?<P>Your the one that believes so dead fast in marriage. So, tell me where was the honor, rspect, and caring when your husband slept with other woman? I can see your dedicated... but my only question is to what do you dedicate yourself to? Would you rather wake up refreshed or wondering?<P>You speak of everyone being better off before. How? Financially? Emotionally? <P>I applaud your dedication. But clearly he doesn't deserve your dedication. What you went through was a form of abusive. <P>.....and certainly nothing is wrong with you. Do you think you could of stopped him from having his affair's?<P>A bunch of crap? No it isn't. Those things i said are from years of study. Clearly and undisputed people are not thinking clearly when they are separating. But really you believe in SOME cases there are warning signs. Sometimes they get over looked.<P>Do you talk to him today in regards to your current feelings and thoughts? How does he feel?

looking ahead,<P>Of course I don't want him to cheat. The only thing worse than having him cheat was having him cheat and then desert us. But what lessons are the kids learning now? That it is ok to leave your wife and children, that what the OW wants is more important than what the kids need, that if she doesn't want him to spend much time with the kids, then he won't, that by leaving your wife and family you can come up financially ahead, while your family is near poverty? At least when he was home, he was still treating the children as if he loved them. The change in how he related to the kids happened after he left, after the OW got more and more possessive, after the OW and her kids got sick of having my kids around. At least if he were still home, it is unlikely he would have emotionally abandoned the kids. <P>I suspected he was depressed awhile before the affair started. I tried to talk to him about it. I tried to get him to go to a doctor when he started having physical symptoms. Short of hiding St. John's Wort in his cream of wheat, I don't know what more I could have done. Should I have known that he was likely to suffer from clinical depression - maybe, if I had been a psychiatrist. <P>He does not talk about his feelings - period - not with me, almost never with the kids. Right before he left and shortly afterwards he said a number of things that gave a pretty good indication of the rapid deterioration of his mental state - "I've been feeling this way for weeks, maybe months," "Sometimes I think I have messed up my life so badly it can't ever be fixed," etc, not to mention the fact that he admitted to our counselor that he had been suicidal. He has made it clear to the kids that he doubts their love, no matter what they say to the contrary. <BR>I can't have an email discussion with him about our relationship, because in the past the OW has clearly written "his" replies - it is obvious from the writing style. <P>My personal opinion is that he is absolutely terrified that the OW will dump him and he will be alone, and he will be left with nothing. <P>This is not someone who is in a healthy mental state. This has nothing to do with disrespect, conquering women, etc. <P>nb,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Nellie, if someone were dying from lung cancer because they smoked, would you think they deserved it because they smoked, or have compassion for their pain?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>These are not mutually exclusive. Obviously I wouldn't say, "You got what you deserved" to a person in this situation. <P>You said there are other reasons for divorce besides abuse. I simply told you that I do not agree, and that nothing will change what I believe because it is not just an opinion, it is part of my basic belief system.

Nellie, you said in the first response back to me:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Telling me that I am wrong to feel this way amounts to the same thing as my telling a Christian that there is no god. It is not only pointless to try, but is an attack on the basic belief system.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Now you say:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I simply told you that I do not agree, and that nothing will change what I believe because it is not just an opinion, it is part of my basic belief system.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, you did not "simply" tell me that you do not agree. You said I attacked your belief system. <P>You are obviously a very intelligent woman. You write beautifully, are able to articulate well how you are feeling. I don't think I misunderstood you. <P>I apologized for the perceived attack and I got a message back from you that basically said that I misunderstood. <P>You know what? I'm tired. I have suffered too. My 20 year marriage is over, and I am devistated by that fact. I am trying to rebuild my life. I am so very, very naive to think for even one second that this would be positive.<P>Please forgive me.<BR> <BR>Looking ahead, I wish you well.<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited October 26, 2000).]

looking ahead,<P>Just a quick response. I re-read what I posted and it came across a little (no a lot) insensitive. It was a bad day yesterday What I was trying to say is that I am not one to just coddle someone who is in pain. I will be there for them 100% for comfort and compassion, but I will not be one of those people who say "its OK, life isn't fair, these things just happen", etc...<P>Does that make sense? <P>On the other hand, I would never say "see you were wrong - told you so - look how you contributed to the pain your in" in a direct way. And never in a point-blank fashion. <BR>Rather through conversations with the person, I would try to help them to find the answers to why they are in pain. To learn, to grow. Not to throw it in their face. <P>I think that helping someone see what happened and learn from their mistakes will go a long way, rather than just putting a bandaid and saying "there there, its OK".<P>This still seems kind of "cold" on my part - I just can't find the right words to convey what I am thinking...............

nb,<P>I wanted you to understand that I didn't think you intended to attack my belief system, but that, to me, telling me that I should change what I believe about divorce is an attack on my belief system. I understand that you did not intend for it to be. I understand that for many people it would just be a difference of opinion, but for me it is more than that. I am terribly sorry that I hurt your feelings. <P>I am sorry that you are feeling so much pain. I would never try to minimize the pain you are feeling. Certainly I know from personal experience that I have never experienced anything even approaching this pain - not the death of my parents six months apart when I was in my twenties, not even the murder of my nephew. Sometimes, often actually, I wish I could block out the pain like my H has. <P> <P><p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited October 26, 2000).]

Thank you Nellie, very much. I appreciate your words of kindness...<P>Take care of yourself and your family, as I know you have been since this began.<P>Sheryl

By the way Nellie, <P>Just this morning I told David that the pain doesn't even rival our son's suicide attempt when he was eight years old! I am serious. So yes, I understand what you mean about your parents deaths...<P>Again, sorry for your continued pain as well.