<BR>TS,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Large traumas should not be put in the hands of ignorant outsiders because there is way too much risk that the person will be re-traumatized.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your next husband isn't going to be an "ignorant outsider," and as your self-esteem recovers, your risk of re-traumatization drops toward zero.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't need anyone's pity or a pat on the back.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You wouldn't be telling your next husband about your past for a pat on the back. You would be telling him about your triumph, and why YOU are proud of what you overcame.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't believe the path to redemption is to regurgitate the ugliest parts of my life and "hope" for acceptance. I don't believe that having someone else give me their stamp of "approval" means a damn thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You still want it both ways. You want to claim that you don't care what others think at the very same time you refuse to disclose your past. The obvious fact is that you care deeply about what others think.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You still don't get it. Telling someone about my past (IMO) will make it more likely for me to repeat my sins, not less likely.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When your self-esteem returns, when you reach the point of self-validation, you will WANT to tell your next husband about your past. It won't be for a pat on the back, either. <P>Frankly, I disbelieve this whole retraumatization argument, especially in your case. The only way you can make a retraumatization argument work is to claim that you're too dumb to have learned from your previous mistake. And you're wayyyy too smart for that!<P>In any event, the risk of retraumatization falls subject to the doctrine of competing harms. Your next fiance deserves to enter a marriage with <I>informed consent</I> and has a moral right to know of your past. IMO, your integrity alone, in providing him informed consent, will lead you to disclose your past.<P>I know you disagree with my view that you'll eventually want to tell your next husband about your past. But hey, time is on my side. Never is an awful, awful long time, TS. <P>Bystander

The only requirement for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing.<P><BR>Sounds like a cure for today's problems doesn't it? Problem is that it was written several hundred years ago.<P>Like I said, the more things change....

My integrity would guarantee that I do not do anything to intentionally harm the relationship. Telling someone about my past would necessitate ending a "romantic" relationship because I simply have no romantic feelings towards men who know about my life. None. Zip. Zero. They do not have a moral right to know anything that happened before they met me, especially if it happened long,long ago. Your argument about someone having rights over ANY part of ME is downright scary. In the big scheme of things, they only have whatever rights I give them. If I tell them about my past, I'm "giving" them the freedom to judge me and do whatever they see fit with that information. You think it is disrespectful to do otherwise. I think it is stupid to hand that kind of power over to anyone. You see, I have learned a GREAT deal, but you discount it as lack of healing or bitterness or whatever. <P>I believe that most men have a much greater desire for "control" than women do. For whatever reason. I'm not surprised that this is a situation you are not familiar with. I'm even less surprised that you feel so strongly about confessing my past. How DARE I deprive any man of a convenient control method? How dare *I* presume that MY need for safety is greater than HIS need for "evidence"? This is not something I've gleaned just from my relationship with my second ex. This comes from many of my women friends. You can tell me ALL day that there is not a double standard, but you might as well be telling me that a woman is going to be president in 2004. Might happen, but not likely. <P>When I made my wedding vows it doesn't say a darn thing about whatever happened before the vows are made. And rightly so.<P>I'm not even sure if I'd want to stay married if someone found out about my past later on. It might depend on how they found out. If they found out accidently, I would stay married and do my best to try and recover my "in love" feelings for them. If they found out by active searching on their part, I would end the marriage. Anything that happens while in the marriage/relationship is fair game. They can do all the asking and searching they want. However, anything that happened before I met them is off-limits. To actively search out things to open up old wounds would be a betrayal of the highest magnitude for me. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited November 01, 2000).]

TS writes,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Telling someone about my past would necessitate ending a "romantic" relationship because I simply have no romantic feelings towards men who know about my life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, I understand this. Its a defense mechanism. You are afraid to get into or even remain in a relationship that could potentially become abusive, and you feel that once someone knows of your past, they will forever hold "the" tool to destroy you.<P>Its a fallacy, though, for three reasons. First, not all men are abusers. Second, as you've pointed out yourself, anyone intent on abusing you would have plenty of other stuff to work with besides your infidelity. Third, there are men who would see your past as a plus, not a minus.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>They do not have a moral right to know anything that happened before they met me, especially if it happened long,long ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What if your potential partner defines a "long, long" time as 50 years, and you define it as five years? Does his right to informed consent prevail? Etc.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I tell them about my past, I'm "giving" them the freedom to judge me and do whatever they see fit with that information.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The question isn't whether they are free to judge you, because they always have been free to do so. The question is how much merit you put in their judgments.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm even less surprised that you feel so strongly about confessing my past. How DARE I deprive any man of a convenient control method?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The only controlling behavior going on here is by the ghost of your ex husband, who is defining the terms of your next marrige by way of his sustained, detrimental impact on your self-esteem. As for myself, you are confusing my desire to see you in a fulfilling marriage with a vague stereotype that because I'm male, I'm out to control you.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How dare *I* presume that MY need for safety is greater than HIS need for "evidence"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Do you believe that you can have a truly fulfilling marriage given the historical censorship you currently believe is necessary for your personal safety? I don't think you can, and in time, I think you'll agree with me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You can tell me ALL day that there is not a double standard, but you might as well be telling me that a woman is going to be president in 2004. Might happen, but not likely.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have asked you outright for evidence of this double standard, and your response is limited to your own history and the history of your circle of friends. The easiest response is for me to declare you and your friends unrepresentative of the population and force you to document your assertion. <P>But for the sake of argument, lets say that there really is a double standard. At best you would observe it as an average behavior. Certainly there are men who would never engage in that double standard of behavior, just as there are men who do not abuse their partners but instead cherish them. The solution is, of course, to find one of these men. Trying to "define away" your past won't get you the marriage that you seek.<P>Bystander<p>[This message has been edited by Bystander (edited November 02, 2000).]

bystander,<BR>This is really a fun conversation. I do love a debate...<P>The more I discuss this, the more I'm thinking that re-marriage is definately out of the question. I'm having a hard enough time dealing with TWO divorces. Every once in awhile I need to revisit this to remember exactly WHY I'm not in a "relationship" and why marriage is such a bad idea for me. <P>"The question isn't whether they are free to judge you, because they always have been free to do so."<P>Fine. Keep it to yourself.<P>"The question is how much merit you put in their judgments." <P>Again, you really have zero understanding about the nature of abuse and how devious and insidious it is in the beginning. You are wearing rose-colored glasses my friend. That is ok. I would never WANT you to experience it just so you could understand me. They can judge me all they want, but I won't be giving them the "tools" to do it with. They can find their own. <P>I really do not have to come up with a lengthy dissertation on whether this double standard exists. Ask just about ANY woman, and she will probably say yes, there is one. Sure, maybe not ALL men abide by it. There is always a group of outliers on the "bell curve". So what? Why is it MY job to subject myself to the majority opinion in the "hope" of finding an outlier. I'd say that any man who holds that double standard deserves to be lied to...and....I'd be the first one to do it, just to prove a point. <BR>

Geez! TS,<P>Are you back into your "hating men" mode again??? It does get sort of tiring hearing your pronouncements that all men want control in marriages, all men ..., when my life experience suggest there are many "henpecked men" around. So it cannot be all men, but some women definitely like control. There are a fair number on this board right now, that spent a considerable amount of time trying to control their H's and the H's are leaving. Control issues are not gender specific.<P>But I will tell you something (and I know it is falling on deaf ears) marriage is a two way street. What you are saying is that if you meet a man, that seems to pass your screening, that he will not and should not tell you about his past. His affairs (yeah men have affairs also), his STD's, whether he was an abuser in previous marriages, the fact that he loved his W deeply, took care of her until her death from .... <P>You don't want to know any of these things??<BR>All I want to know is have you lost your mind? You keep acting like you are going to meet some guy at age 40 or so that has never been married, doesn't have a past, and is now perfect. <P>TS, you may not believe this, but there aren't any perfect guys out there. <P>We all have pasts, we have all lived, and most are actually pretty nice. It seems to me that your failure to understand why being honest is important may have been a contributing factor in how you choose your previous H's.<P>The honesty you are trying to avoid, will not convict you, TS, it will save you. You don't want to marry a man that doesn't feel that people learn and develop. You don't want to marry a man who will hold your past against you, because when you get married you will develop a past all over again. Will, he hold a mistake you made in the marriage over you (say not cooking meals properly, Yeah, I know you won't cook for him. ).<P>TS, you think that knowing your past gives them control over you. But you are wrong. It gives you more information to judge them. To decide if they are honorable, kind men. You have this thing all backwards. The honesty is not going to make you vulnerable, it is going to protect you, from choosing the same type of man you have choosen before.<P>You will say well I told H#2 about H#1 and he thought I cheated. Well, it is very clear H#2 has/had serious emotional problems. Your big mistake was in not dumping him early on.<P>When you come out of your current "men are bad phase" , then think about this. No one can use information about you against you unless you let them, unless you are ashamed of yourself. You shouldn't be and I don't believe you will be once you heal from your last marriage.<P>Does this make any sense to you??<P>I hope some of it does.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>I know the "man hating" thing is getting old. I understand how contradictory my thinking sounds. No, I don't expect to find a "perfect" man. I don't even know why I'm even having this discussion.<P>I was completely honest with both of my ex's. They were honest with me for the most part. How do you think I found out about the "20 women" from my first H? He told me.<P>My second H was honest with me too about his past. Didn't stop him from abusing me with mine, mostly after we were married. Alot of people like to think they can spot an abuser up front, but it can be very hard. Especially if you come from a family where abuse was the norm. My second ex didn't come up with some of his ideas until well after we were married. Then I was in the "till death do us part" mode. I was in the keep on trying mode, until something drastic happened. You could say I was like a wolf, caught in a trap, so I chewed off my leg. Ok, a trap of my own making, but a trap nonetheless. <P>For a very long time, the things my ex said about my past had no effect on me. Really. But see, that is what makes abuse so complex. It didn't affect me DIRECTLY, but it did make me start doubting myself. It made me start to question some of my decisions. Over time, I was convinced that there was nothing I could do right. It took quite a long time. About 8 yrs before it was all said and done. Of course, his little coup de grace at the end didn't help matters. You know what is even MORE scary JL? All of his friends think he is a really nice guy!! He is Mr. Popular!! But he didn't treat his friends like he treated me. It was very, very confusing. He has all these friends and all these people like him, of course I start to believe it is my fault. That is something else I've learned after doing alot of reading. It is very common for abusers to be quite well accepted and popular in the community, while doing very heinous things at home. <P>I will never marry again, because I never want to be bound for life to anyone who would hurt me like my first two husbands did. I don't believe in divorce. Like I said, I really don't know why I'm even having this discussion. Probably because I like to debate.

<BR>TS,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is really a fun conversation. I do love a debate...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks! I love a good debate, too. Especially when I'm right and you're wrong! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The more I discuss this, the more I'm thinking that re-marriage is definately out of the question.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'll go one further: A relationship should be out of the question until you're done with your PhD. When I was in graduate school, I watched a lot of my fellow students' marriages go right down the tubes. The fact is, you're too busy to properly tend to a relationship while in graduate school, IMO. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"The question isn't whether they are free to judge you, because they always have been free to do so." Fine. Keep it to yourself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But why shouldn't I tell everyone what a kind and thoughtful person you are?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Again, you really have zero understanding about the nature of abuse and how devious and insidious it is in the beginning. You are wearing rose-colored glasses my friend.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Where did you get the idea that I have no history of abuse?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>They can judge me all they want, but I won't be giving them the "tools" to do it with. They can find their own.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>JL's answered this one. You have it perfectly backwards. The "tool" is best used to diagnose potential partners, based on how they respond to hearing about your past.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sure, maybe not ALL men abide by it. There is always a group of outliers on the "bell curve". So what? Why is it MY job to subject myself to the majority opinion in the "hope" of finding an outlier.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The obvious answer is that you hold the key to finding those "outliers" (as you call them) in your own hands. If you refuse to use the key in your own hands, its silly to complain that you're locked out.<P>Bystander

Bystander,<P>Thank you, thank you! <P>You said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I'll go one further: A relationship should be out of the question until you're done with your PhD. When I was in graduate school, I watched a lot of my fellow students' marriages go right down the tubes. The fact is, you're too busy to properly tend to a relationship while in graduate school, IMO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have been telling TS this for at least a year I think. Now she is hearing it from someone else. Great! <P>Please listen to Bystander, TS.<P>TS,<P>One last thing, you shouldn't consider marriage in your current frame of mind. What Bystander and others such as myself are saying, is that we see things in you that suggest that your position will change. If it does, protect yourself. Have honest long discussions with a prospective mate, not just about you but about him.<P>You are right you cannot always spot an abuser or someone not quite with the program, but not asking or talking honestly certainly diminishes the odds that you will. That is the point. Life doesn't come with guarentees, but one thing for sure life is the government, where doing nothing is construed as a good thing. You need to live your life and lead a life with some risk.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Bystander and JL,<P>My,my,my...I thought you both understood that ANY relationship is TOTALLY out of the question until after my PhD!!<P>See JL, something you told me did sink in. But I'll tell you, it is only partly due to the fact that I'm going to school. Mostly, I don't want to negotiate where my next job is going to be, or where I'm going to live.<P>When I talk about remarriage, I'm talking maybe never. I know you don't believe me. That is ok. Most people I went to HS with swore I'd be a SAHM with 2 kids by the time I was 25. When I think about re-marriage, even under the "best" of circumstances I'm not really thrilled about it. I've made enough sacrifices for 10 marriages and I just want to do what I want to do for a very,very long time. <P>I would like to have sex again someday, though. Maybe I'll rethink that. Hm.....Nah. Lets see, sex with someone I don't care about...not really that much fun. Sex with someone I could care about? Doomed to failure ultimately since I'm not getting married. I don't know. That might become more palatable over time. At least when that relationship ends, I won't have to add it to my marital "rap sheet" at the local courthouse. <P>That, and I want to be able to break up with them if they ask me about my "past". I understand the premise you are both operating under. It is a fine concept, in theory.

<BR>TS, <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I understand the premise you are both operating under. It is a fine concept, in theory.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm offline until Monday, so this will have to be my last contribution to this thread. <BR>We are covering old ground here.<P>Your marriages did not end because of honesty. Your marriages ended because your husbands abused you, especially your second husband. It is incorrect to blame honesty for what happened to you. About the worst thing I can accuse you of is picking two men that turned out to be abusers. But even that is ridiculous, because nobody in their right mind would marry someone that they knew would abuse them.<P>Your affair was incidental to the end of your second marriage. Your second marriage was going to end no matter what, because your ex husband (#2) treated you terribly. The situations we are in can have dramatic effects on our behavior.<P>Years ago, there was a psychologist named Philip Zimbardo who did a study at Stanford. He randomly assigned some students to be prisoners and some students to be guards. He found that after a period of time, the guards became very authoritarian and treated the prisoners poorly. Stanley Milgram ran some studies in the 1960s in which people in his experiment were led to believe that they were studying the effects of punishment on learning (the study was really about obedience to authority). The actual subjects in the study were assigned the role of "teacher," and this involved ostensibly shocking the other (confederate) subject. The results showed that 2/3 of the real subjects would shock the confederate *to death* if told to do so by an experimenter.<P>The point of all this is that social situations can lead us to very drastic acts. Your husband abused you terribly, and you fell into an affair because you wanted some way out of your terrible situation.<P>You seem to think that there isn't a man on the planet who could look past what you've done (even if he knew of the dire circumstances you were in), so you're creating these revisionist fantasies to erase your past. But your past is part of who you are - you want to run from yourself. And you can't. The good news is that you don't need to, because you're already "good enough" to have a fulfilling marriage including honesty.<P>Bystander

Bystander,<BR>Thanks for your encouragement. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I very much appreciate the time you've spent discussing this. <P>Well, I guess I'm not saying that honesty CAUSED my divorce. What I'm saying is that it was IRRELEVENT. If either of my husbands could have accepted personal responsibility for the harm they were causing to the relationship, then I'd still be married to one of them. Being honest didn't salvage either relationship. So, if that is true, why can't you accept that purging my guts to someone new is also equally irrelevent?<P>If each person takes responsibility for their own actions, then this total honesty thing about my past is completely unnecessary. The only reason that the consent thing is important to you (or another man) is because deep down you believe I'll cheat again. If I never do (key point: personal responsibility) then telling about it is a non-issue. It only BECOMES an issue if I ever cheated again. Then there would be a pattern, and yes, he would have something to worry about then.<P>See, people are all tied up with this notion that somehow they can "affair-proof" a marriage. Like, there is something they can do to somehow prevent their spouse from cheating. I guess that makes people feel a little safer. However, I know that the only person who can "affair-proof" me is....ME. I learned a long time ago that people more-or-less do whatever they want to do. No amount of begging or pleading or knowing about one's past makes a damn bit of difference. <P>In my case, knowing about my past will make it more likely for me to cheat, not less. Really, it is much better for him if he never asks. There are many,many ways to discover if someone is an abuser without handing him the "gun" to shoot me with.