<BR>TS writes:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I edited out the last thing I wrote because I was pretty angry when I wrote it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I read it and was going to respond, but I went to the other thread first. Actually, your latest post sounds much angrier to me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have to plant this evil seed of<BR>condemnation and suspicion with every new person I meet too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is quite incorrect. terri, weep, JL, myself, and the others believe that you should tell someone whom you are deeply involved with, not a casual acquaintance you meet at a cocktail party. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Isn't that your REAL goal in knowing? So that you can pat yourself on the back for being faithful?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If neither I nor my wife had ever cheated, would it change how you view what I say? Why?<P>If I had cheated and my wife was an OW before I knew her, would it change how you view what I say? Why?<P>It shouldn't make any difference in either case, because I'm in a healthy marriage now. And I want to impart to you what I know of marital dynamics in a good marriage.<P>TS, the fact is, you can learn a lot more from the functional marriages than you can from the dysfunctional marriages. I discount a complaint that others' marriages aren't "dysfunctional enough" to be worthy of consideration. Which is what I read in your passage, to be honest.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So you can work out your anger on them? Of course, you're too good for that...You only have the best of intentions. I don't believe it for one second.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>At least stumble upon the truth, please: So we can help you reach what you really want, a truly fulfilling marriage. And that's what you want, TS. Its why you're here. Its not about having fun debating - its about having a fulfulling marriage.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm condemned to lie, condemned to face the perpetual and never ending judgement from people like most of you, or condemned to live alone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You present a false dilemma and you know it. You're not condemned to lie, all you have to do is tell the truth. And in doing so, you'll have found the path to the fulfilling marriage you want.<P>Bystander

TS,<P>I have work to do and I really need to do it, but I will respond to your last post as I did the previous thread.<P>You are the only one punishing yourself for your Past. You are the one living in your past. No one here is punishing you. You of all people should ,and I am sure do, know that knowledge can be used/abused or it can be ignored. Personally, it has my experience that most people use knowledge for good purposes. You seem to feel any knowledge will be used for bad purposes.<P>Will you use the knowledge you gain from a prospective spouse to beat them over the head with it?? If you won't why do you to "assume" that someone else will. You are just drawing lines through a single data point.<P>TS, yes you are going to always have a past. We all do. Alzheimers is the only way short of death to not have a past, and neither option is an option.<P>What you seem to continually fail to understand is that being honest is not a condemnation to eternal pain for any past sins. It is the salvation for out living them. If they become small in your mind they will be even smaller in anyone elses. But you will argue that an affair is not a small sin. It wasn't to your exH, it isn't to you, but that marriage is over. All that is left is for you to learn and grow and most of all forgive yourself.<P>Quite frankly your affair didn't doom that marriage and you know it. Your H's attitude and perhaps your attitude before the affair doomed it.<P>So my advice is to quit condeming yourself to a life of loneliness, quit condeming people you havn't met for being "judgemental", quit reliving your marriage. Start to look at people as just like you, mistaken, often wrong, more often loving, and for the most part very generous in their view of other people. And don't forget to be that way yourself. <P>Yeah! That's right, give us guys a break. <P>God Bless,<P>JL

Bystander,<BR>I meant every new person I want to have a serious relationship with...<P>We'll just have to agree to disagree. You honestly don't believe me when I say that I know myself pretty well. If I told the "truth", it would only be a matter of time before I sabotaged the relationship. It wouldn't matter what the other person did or did not do. I would not like them having that information. I would never, ever feel truly safe in a relationship if they had that knowledge. Nothing they said or did would make any difference. Ever. The main reason why I wanted to stay married after my affair was because of my vows and there were still things I loved about him. However, there was a part of me that always yearned to get away. Since he divorced me, I'm free to live however I want. What I want to do someday is to be with someone who never knows I cheated. <P>I have the opportunity (thanks to my ex) to rewrite my past, and I will given the chance.<P>If someone I truly cared about found out about this, I would have no choice (for me) but leave. Just like my ex had no choice (for him) but leave me after I cheated. I suppose there is not much difference. I know you don't understand, and that is ok. <P>Did you ever see Les Miserables? I think alot of people know the story well. He goes to jail for a very long time for stealing a loaf of bread. Upon his release, he is forced to carry a card that says he is a criminal. He comes across a kindly priest, whom he steals from unfortunately. He was a criminal once, and will always be a criminal according to this card, so he has no incentive to be anything else. When the police bring him back, the priest acts like he gave him the things he stole. He tells the criminal that he has bought his soul for God. <P>He tears up his convict card, and starts a whole new life in another city where nobody knows him. He lives an exemplary life, and everyone loves him. However, the official who put him in jail will not let him live his new life and hunts him down and eventually finds him. He simply can't conceive of the idea that any criminal could truly be reformed and that all criminals must be "known" in society as such.<P>What YOU expect me to do is carry this convict card around with me the rest of my life, and HOPE that someone will give me a "job". When my ex divorced me, I bought my own soul back and I'm not handing it to anyone else. You see, you still see me as a criminal, or else you would not feel so strongly about your "informed consent" rule. You scare me. <P>

TS writes:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What YOU expect me to do is carry this convict card around with me the rest of my life, and HOPE that someone will give me a "job".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>YOU are the one who continues to regard your past as only a negative. YOU are the one who regards your past as a convict card. YOU are the one who hasn't forgiven yourself, TS. Your past is a plus in the eyes of some, but you refuse to accept that. Why?<P>And do you really believe that you can have a fulfilling marriage given the historical censorship you believe is necessary for your own safety? I don't believe its possible, and deep down, I don't think you believe its possible, either.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When my ex divorced me, I bought my own soul back and I'm not handing it to anyone else. You see, you still see me as a criminal, or else you would not feel so strongly about your "informed consent" rule. You scare me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, I don't scare you. What scares you is that you know I'm right. For now, the ghost of your ex-husband is controlling you by defining the parameters of your next marriage by way of his sustained, detrimental impact on your self-esteem. When you purge yourself of that ghost, and your self-esteem returns, you'll embrace the concept of self-validation; you will want to tell your next husband about your past, and you won't engage in silly fantasies about denying your history to your husband. The road of deceit travels to ruin, whereas the road of honesty travels to fulfillment. Its not a difficult choice, TS. You'll see so yourself when your self-esteem recovers.<P>As far as losing romantic interest in someone who knows about your past. As I said before, this is an understandable defense mechanism. My guess is that its operating through your fear of being abused. But once your self-esteem recovers to the point that you can self-validate, you would refuse to tolerate any abuse from a husband in the first place, so his knowing about your past wouldn't necessarily imply that knowledge could be used against you. In fact, as JL said, you can use his reaction to that knowledge to judge for yourself whether he's the sort of person you'd want to marry in the first place. Supposed liabilities can become genuine assets, but you have to see that for yourself.<P>Bystander<p>[This message has been edited by Bystander (edited November 02, 2000).]

Bystander,<P> When my self-esteem is fully intact, I won't have this conflict because I won't have any urge to spill my guts out of some ancient guilt or misplaced responsibility towards him. <P>It won't matter whether he uses what I tell him against me or not. If I tell him the "truth" there will always be the opportunity that he will use it against me in the future. I can't live that way. <P>If a guy asked me point blank if I cheated, I would lie, and then break up with him at the first opportunity. Obviously, if it is that important that he'd have to ask, then the outcome is pretty predictable. He won't have the conflict of staying with someone who cheated before, and I won't have the conflict of staying with someone who knows. Problem solved.<P>I had to come back and add one more thing. It just dawned on me why I'm so against being "asked". My second H asked point blank if I ever cheated on my first H. This was AFTER I had told him that my first H had 20 different women, etc. So, asking me if *I* cheated seemed kind of insulting at the time, like oh, I must have cheated for him to go out and do so many other women or something. <P>I told him no, I did not. Well with further questioning, I told him I did date someone else after the papers were signed but before the divorce was final. No matter that my first H had asked for an open marriage long before the divorce and I didn't date. No matter that my first H had sex with another woman the day after we were married. No matter that it was my first H who wanted the divorce. Because I was not "officially" divorced when I started dating, therefore, I had cheated according to my second H. At one level, I was still technically married, so it was pretty tough to argue. However, I did argue quite vehemently that "cheating" necessarily implies that I did something behind my first H's back, which was not the case at all. All of it was in the "open", as he wanted. <P>I think it was about a week after my second ex had filed that he finally admitted that perhaps I didn't cheat on my first H. Then he says "but you broke your vows". Wow. Did he have some kahonas or what? After having his revenge affair behind my back AND filing for a divorce, he had the nerve to say that. It was actually kind of humorous at that point, because I didn't break my "vows" either and told him so. <P>My first H came up with some wacky ceremony at the last minute without my permission. I should have run screaming down the aisle. He said something like "I truly love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you". He knew he couldn't keep his drawers zipped for 5 minutes either. I wouldn't have been surprised if he did one of the waitresses after the ceremony!! So pathetic it is almost funny. Heck, I was 21. What the hell did I know?<P>Long story short, I think "asking" can be a violent way to get information. I'm put in a position to either lie, or listen to whatever cr*p they are going to give me if I tell the truth. Hell, even if I tell the truth and it is not the answer they want to hear, I still might have to listen to their cr*p. So, my theory...Anyone who asks does not have good intentions. So, I stand my ground. Now that I remember exactly why makes me realize even more why I'd break up with their sorry b*tt.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited November 02, 2000).]

TS, you use a poor example in Les Mis to support your argument, for it is exactly what will happen to you if you try to recreate yourself without revealing to your loved ones your true past. You, too, will be haunted by it and someday it will be your undoing. Recall that the "thief" always lived in fear that his past would be revealed... recall that the officer who hunted him down committed suicide rather than believe that a criminal could be reformed ... recall that, when the "daughter" he raised found out about his past, she loved him STILL and would have always loved him even had she always known.<P>Les Mis is an excellent example of what is involved in covering up truth... <P>As for your continued attitude that we make our suggestions out of some sad self-righteousness, you should read some of our posts and our stories - we do not believe we are better than anyone. We know first hand the horrible pain of the other side of where you have been - and we still believe in the GOODNESS of people!<P>Don't you think if your first husband had been HONEST about his propensity for other women it would have made a difference in your decision to marry him? Had he been up front with you and said, "TS, I really do care about you a great deal, and because I do, I must confess something to you before we make this lifelong committment to one another. I am a womanizer. I have always been and really believe I always will be. I love you and I will marry you if you want to be married - but if I promise to be yours exclusively, I will be lying. I leave it up to you to decide."<P>Don't you wish you knew then what you know now? Is it fair for you to have wanted that from him, yet believe that you don't have the obligation to a person with whom you are considering a long term serious relationship anything of your past?<P>It is sad that you are so angry with everything that you will twist what we say to mean something different...<P>I realize that I am now the one repetitively banging my head on a concrete wall and wondering why it continues to result in terrible bruises ... in an attempt to engender a different reaction than the one you continue to give ... Lest I need to be considered insane, I will make this my last post on this thread.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

terri,<BR>I wrote something really angry and had to come back to take it off.<P>You obviously will never understand that I will live in fear no matter whether I tell the truth or not. You don't understand that me telling a significant other will make it much more likely for me to cheat again. <P>The Les Mis story, for me, was not about what happens to you when you don't tell the truth. It was a story of what happened to a good person because of unwarranted prejudice and hate. He lied about his past because he knew that by telling the truth, he'd always be branded as a criminal and that he'd be much more likely to repeat his crimes as a result. He only got his "daughter" because he was a man of means. You might remember that he had to "buy" the little girl off of her caretakers. The little girl's mother lost her job and subsequently died, not because she did bad work, but because someone found out that she had an illegitimate daughter. She then became a prostitute, got ill, and died. It is NOT a story about telling the truth. It is a story about what happens to everyday people when they are not allowed to redeem themselves. What happens to them when certain people take it upon themselves to flush out all the wrong-doers in the world. There were many kind hearted people in that story. There were some close friends of his who suspected of a "mysterious" past, but did not pry because they respected who he is today. THAT is the kind of person I could love.<P>People have a right to close the door on things they cannot suffer with anymore. You want total honesty for YOUR sake, not for anyone else's. At least weep was honest about it, that she wants to dig because she is afraid. If more of you were honest with yourselves, I'd think you'd come to the same conclusion.<P>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited November 03, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited November 03, 2000).]

TS,<P>I think you are missing a common point here...<P>Just about everyone including me suggests that you should be honest for your sake, and no one elses.<P>Remember my analogy last week? I will share most if not all of that with someone. <B>in my time, because I want to!</B> if I don't think they can hanlde it I won't share it.<P>I truly belive, maybe I'm nieve, that our total honesty stance isn't self-serving or a <B>litmus test.</B> It is in the hopes of building intimacy. If you don't want to tell then don't. But remember this, we are only as sick as our secrets! Ask your dad about this.<P>I think we have belabored this point enough.<P>How bout a joke?<P>Have you seen the new Pirate movie?.......<P>It's Rated.........AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRG<P>Love Ya,<P>Bill<P>

Hi Bill,<P>....and what I've already discovered is that I would eventually sabotage an "intimate" relationship if they knew, in one way or another. <P>My father is the one who told me not to tell a new person if I don't want to. Yes, he confessed everything to my mother, and made amends to all of us and others he hurt. That is what I did for my ex. My mother, bless her heart, stayed with him. If she had decided not to, I would understand if my father did not go over all of the gory details with someone new. The only person I owed ANYTHING to was my ex. It's over with now. I want a fresh start, and that for me, means not regurgitating one of the worst periods in my life. If someone new can't understand that, then, as Jamie-Lee says, he doesn't accept me. <P>If telling a new person will make you feel closer to them, then that is good. What I've tried to explain is that telling will absolutely not make me feel closer, and would actually increase the risk of me repeating this. It is getting easier to accept that I will always be "sick" in this respect. I don't want someone else reminding me of my "sickness", that's all. <P>When I think about how I would feel if I stayed married to my ex, I believe that maybe he did the right thing by divorcing me. I doubt I could ever feel forgiven by him, and I'd always feel inferior. Always. Maybe that became clear to him too. I don't know. I think there was a part of him who wanted me to have a fresh start too. He didn't list "adultery" on the divorce papers, although it would have been extremely easy to do so. He left me with enough money to take care of myself with school. He did later come back and apologize for the way he treated me. <P>There is really very little chance that they could find out later. I have only two very close friends who know, and my family. They all believe I deserve a new life too, in whatever way I choose.<P>Thanks for the joke. It did make me smile. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited November 03, 2000).]

TS,<P>Your point is well made. I pray your new life will be all that you want. You deserve it.<P>And know this......<B>You my friend, are not inferior to anyone!!</B><P>Another joke?????<P>Too bad I'll tell it anyhow! LOL<P>This elderly couple in there 80's were dating. Both had been single widowers for 20 some years......<P>They decided the were going to have sex.....<P>The woman wanted to excite her man so began a strip tease....<P>She lowered her right bra strap revealing a very wrinkled very pendulous breast....<P>The old man winced at the the sight but figured...oh well I'm old too......<P>The woman lowered her left bra strap, revealing her other very wrinkled, very pendulos breast...<P>The man winced again at the sight...and again told himself he wasn't a spring chicken either....<P>They embraced and began the awkward act of foreplay....<P>The woman started to get very turned on....<P>She paused for a moment and told the her lover to go easy as she has Acute Angina...<P>The man looked at her and said..."God I hope so cause those are the ugliest breasts I've ever seen!"<P><BR> <P>Love ya,<P>Bill <p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited November 03, 2000).]

What irritates me the most about this thread is that you guys are telling TS that she is <B>wrong</B>. Uhhhh, excuse me, but what's right for your life is not necessarily right for hers. <P>You all are talking about secrets, lies, skeletons in her closet. What in the hell? I seems to be me that a lie or secet is when you don't tell the one that you hurt or betrayed. She has done that, HELLO! So if she chooses not to tell anyone else, who gives a damn. <P>It's ok for everyone to have an opinion, but for you guys to tell her that she is wrong: That's B.S. Like I said to each his own. I just don't believe by her closing that chapter in her life, that she is hiding or lying, or has skeletons in he closet. Let her burn the bridge if she wants!! If you all want to look back on hurt for the rest of your life, then all power to you!!<P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Jamie-Lee,<P>She asked for opinions. She wanted a survey, at least that is what she said. <P>Actually, she just wanted to argue about various peoples opinions. Of course, people are talking from their prospective, that is what she asked for.<P>No one is telling what she should do. For one reason it isn't clear she will meet another man she wants to marry and it isn't clear what her emotional state will be if she does.<P>So I don't think anyone is telling her what to do. We are debating her view of the world, and of men in particular. If you haven't notice, she has a very low opinion of men. Yes, somewhat based on her experience with her father, her 1st Ex and then her 2nd Ex. One can speculate about her choices, but one thing is for sure she knows more now than she did before.<P>The choices are all hers, but quite frankly they are meaningless, with her current emotional state represented by these two very contradictory comments, "...if a man knows her past she is more likely to have an affair" coupled with her comment that "she will never have another affair..."<P>I, and I suspect that most that have posted, to her have no illusions that she will listen to us. I just hope that as time goes on some of what was said in this discussion will come bubbling to the surface of her consciousness, when someone does enter her life, if that happens.<P>So I can speak for myself, but I don't have any illusions about her considering what was said to her as advice. She didn't want any and therefore, she won't treat what has been said as any.<P>Hope that makes you feel better Jamie-Lee. <P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL and Jamie-lee,<P>Actually, I agree with both of you. Some have told me that I'm "wrong" to keep this information from a new person. Others have just stated their opinion about what "honesty" means. <P>Yes, I'm guilty of being argumentative. I did want a survey. I'm not sure if the question was really answered though. Maybe it was. The overall consensus is that there is no "statute of limitations" on telling this to someone else. The nit-picking started over what is considered "honesty".<P>The argument(s) and fired up emotions came from my (and maybe some others) deeply held belief that this information is highly prone to be abused. In general, the attitude is that once my self-esteem improves then abuse either won't bother me or I will detect it earlier. I agree that I will most likely detect it earlier, but it will ALWAYS bother me. It occurred to me that this argument is one that my ex used to use very, very often. "I'm not being mean, you are just too sensitive." He too felt that if my self-esteem were intact, then his "attacks" on my character shouldn't bother me. That sounds like blame the victim cr*p to me. Like I need to potentially subject myself to someone else's punishment, for what? For their benefit? To prove that I have "high self-esteem"? <P>It is not contradictory to state what conditions make it more likely for me to cheat. I have always understood that this is something I will have to be very diligent about the rest of my life. Where we disagree is the notion that telling a new person will actually DECREASE my chances of cheating in the future. And all I can say is that I know myself better than you folks do. <P>This discussion has been very beneficial for alot of reasons. I plan on printing out this thread for future reference. It only solidifies the reason why I will not marry again, in addition to the fact that I'm very sure I would not live through a third divorce. How's that for "informed consent" Bystander...If you divorce me, I'll kill myself. That should keep the guys away, huh?<P>I suppose I need to revisit the "sex without commitment" question again, or recommit to long-term celibacy. One thing I do know, I will not be having another sexual relationship of any kind until I am comfortable either lying about my marriage or know without a doubt that I will break up with them if they ask, no matter how long I am with them. Telling is not an option. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited November 03, 2000).]

Terri,<BR>There is one more thing I wanted to address...<P>I don't really think you can compare my situation to my first H.<P>First of all, his lack of honesty about his philandering was really a lifestyle choice,not something he did in his past. It would be no different if he told me that he didn't want kids, knowing that he did, and hoping to change my mind later. My second ex did exactly what my first H did. He agreed before he married me he would support my education, and move for me if that was required. When the time came, he did not want to follow through. Not only did he not want to follow through, he tried to cut me down and manipulate in me in every way possible to get me to ENTHUSIASTICALLY back out of what I thought was a fair agreement. In my mind, that was an equal betrayal of anything I did to him or anything my first H did to me. He made a promise he had no intention on keeping. <P>I uphold my original statement that my ex's pasts and mine had absolutely nothing to do with my divorces. I wanted to stay married to both of them. It was strictly their inability to accept responsibility for their part in the marriage and a lack of will to keep trying. Neither of them were honest about their intentions about marriage.<P>I will happily discuss my viewpoints about marriage with any man. I will happily discuss what my expectations are for an intimate relationship NOW. My past has no bearing on my future decisions if I make a promise and keep it. <P>I'm angry at both of my husbands for misleading me about their INTENT prior to marriage and their lack of WILL to remain married and make the necessary adjustments.

Well JL,<P>I'm not sure if you were being a little sarcaastic, but yes that does help some. <P>I thought that the opinions were fine and the overall discussion a very good thread. However, the you're wrong and I'm right attitude seemed very attacking. That's all I was trying to say.<P>Yes she's arguementive, but I know that the conversation doesn't just go into one ear and out the other with her. <P>Alot of what has been said here touches a sore spot with myself as well, but I do listen and try to be objective. And trust me, whenever a contrasting view is projected other than what I feel, it is like a seed that is planted and when the time comes, it will harvest. Whether it will be beneficial for me, I'll make that decision when I get there and I'm sure TS will probably do the same. <P><P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Jamie_Lee,<P>I wasn't being sarcastic with you. But I do doubt the TS will pay any attention at least not for a long time. It is sad. But true.<P>She and I have gone around many times on these issues. They settle down for awhile and then they are back as if we nor anyone else had ever communicated with her.<P>As you can see from her statements she has no intention of discussing past marriages with someone. So why did she ask? I suspect she knows on one level that lying by omission is not very honest. She is basically an honest person and it bothers her.<P>On the other hand, the three men that she has been emotionally attached to have failed her. So she has reason to not like men, and she doesn't. But the very honesty issue she addresses, she then say is what makes her so mad about her two exH's. They didn't really tell her how they felt about moving so she could go to school, they just let it slide and when the time came weren't very enthusiastic. Although, her H did make the move, a detail that she doesn't mention often when she is frustrated with the discussion. <P>Interestingly, it is a half full have empty issue. He moved although he didn't want to, why? He did love her in his own way.<P>So, Jamie-Lee, the debate rages on. Of course the real irony in all of this is that most men don't really want to know all of the details. They just want to know what most women want to know when they marry someone. Who are they marrying and can they expect that person to love them and honor their vows.<P>So simple yet so complex. Must go.<P>Have a good weekend all.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

TheStudent, I remember YEARS ago reading here on the MB forum, when my husband and myself were going through his first affair (call me sad for remembering this, but I have an excellent memory).<P>I remember your H's posting here. He called you his "buddy" and other similar things. For some reason you and your H's posts stuck out in my mind because I had wished that my husband and I could have the repoire you and he did. I saw him (your husband) trying to work on the marriage, but having a hard time working through the pain of it all. I have read a little of what you have written about him, but we are all seeing one side; I have to say I do remember some of the posts that were written by you two, and I don't recall him being the monster you make him out to be here, only because I remember that there were not many couples posting on the boards, and you two stuck out to me because you both were trying to overcome what had happened. <P>Statute of Limitations??? Sorry, but I don't see that as even being a valid question... when you find someone you truly care for and time goes on, and questions asked by him to you, then you can pick and choose your time to reveal to the extent of what you wish (truthfully). I wouldn't imagine that it would be an issue for a very long time, past is past, it doesn't define who we are at the present, does it? Don't WE ALL learn from our past mistakes?? To be honest, I see you looking for negatives when there are none there yet. I also see you pre-judging those whom you've never met yet, and by what premises? <P>

JL,<BR>You are absolutely right that I don't mention the fact that he moved. I also don't mention very often the fact that I offered to quit school many,many times. Both before I actually came up here and afterward. Not only that, I offered to even get out of engineering at one point.<P>The reason why I don't mention the fact that his body was present here is because I don't really see it as him keeping his promise. I could be faithful, for instance, yet disrespect him in every other way. I would not call that a marriage. It would be the same thing as if he said "oh, all right...we'll have kids, but I'm not going to wash them, watch them, change their diapers, shop for them, or anything else except give you and them a roof over their head and enough money to feed them". That is hardly following through in the spirit of the agreement. <P>Finally, being dishonest does bother me. I'd like to think I could lie, but I'm sure I could not. I'm not sure I could even "lie by omission" as you state. I AM sure that I could not exist in an intimate relationship in which a man knew what I did. You simply cannot understand why sharing this would make me MORE vulnerable to a future affair in the long run or, in the very least, make it very difficult for me to feel fulfilled in the relationship. That is ok. <P>Kayleigh,<BR>Yes, he did post here a couple of times. Yes, he did call me his "buddy". There was something I realized after quite a bit of thought.... He was very good about presenting a "loving picture" of himself towards outsiders but was very different in private. He talked almost non-stop to others about how proud he was of my acceptance to GaTech, but when he got home, he called me selfish, thoughtless. Said my school goals were "running away". This happened with therapists too. Would tell them "I thought she was so perfect". What a bunch of bull. <P>It was very confusing. If you do much reading about abuse, it is extremely common for abusers to be well liked and respected in the community. People have a very hard time beleiving the abuse that goes on behind closed doors, which makes it even MORE confusing to someone who is suffering from abuse. There are many,many situations I have not discussed here. The "buddy" as he called me here, was a "slut", "mutilation", "wish you would jump off a bridge" when he got home. <P>To all,<BR>I realize that I still hold a great deal of anger and frustration in regards to this issue. I respectfully acknowledge that you all are trying to help. Further, I understand that many of you are very afraid of being cheated on again. In your desire to mitigate this risk in the future, you would like as much information about the other person as possible. <P>However, I don't believe that anyones past behavior is any guarantee of anything. Even if someone claimed to be faithful in the past it is no guarantee they will be faithful in the future, and vice versa. That applies to just about anything. Personal responsibility is the key in my mind. Nothing anyone says about their past makes any difference to me if they don't have the ability to take responsibility for their current behavior. That is the only gauge I can use. <P>It occurred to me when I was driving home the other day why I can never remarry. I am so personally opposed to divorce, that I have allowed my ex-husbands to treat me in the worst possible ways in order to remain married. When the situation became absolutely unbearable in my second marriage, I cheated. I think that when I confessed, I knew I was capable of cheating over and over again in order to cope with my marriage if something did not change. I am so opposed to divorce, I could possibly cheat again to avoid it under the worst of circumstances. I know that if I were to marry a third time, that this would also be true. I literally would rather die than be divorced a third time, under any circumstances, and will go to almost any length, possibly even adultery, to cope with a bad marriage. What makes me feel even worse is that subjecting myself to their abuse did not result in the marriage remaining intact.<P>So, the issue of "informed consent" really is a moot point. It is quite impossible for me to be "happily" married under almost any circumstances, it seems. My fear of being divorced a third time and what I could do to avoid divorce makes remarriage very, very unlikely. <P>I've never felt this kind of pressure when simply dating. I can imagine committing to someone without the "legal" paperwork of divorce. In that case, there would be no stigma attached to a breakup if the other person decided to change their mind. Furthermore, I would not feel compelled to twist myself into a pretzel, or confess to sins long past, in order to maintain the relationship. <P>Anyway, I should apologize for taking out my frustrations on you all. This is obviously something that will haunt me for the rest of my life.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited November 04, 2000).]

Dear TS,<P>I spent some sleepless time thinking about your current guilt-ridden state. I wish all WS would feel the same amount of shame and repentance that you do, and exile themselves from ever commiting such a cruel deed. If more people feel the way you do, then society would be a better place for marriages to suceed.<P>In a strange way, you have helped me come to an acceptance of my unenviable position because like you, I know I will never be able to live it down were I the unfaithful spouse. I realise that the pain of your fear at having such a 'past' is not lesser than my pain of having been rejected. Suffice to say this is not the same for all WS; many never face the full impact of their betrayal.<P>You have come to a point where you have taken the blame wholeheartedly and then reached back to put the blame on the exH and marriage. You have also discussed before that nothing in a marriage justifies this sort of behaviour. You have extrapolated that if you were married again and had a bad marriage, you would commit adultery again just so that you can stay in the marriage and avoid divorce. It proves that you are made and in need of human companionship at whatever cost.<P>You are correct in saying that there are no gaurantees for future behaviour and that goes the same for every single person in this world. Why are some able to take that leap of faith and others not? Why do some dare live and love despite having been hurt umpteen times? <P>We made bad choices and married dishonest and abusive men. Should we honour them by carrying their sins and abuse all through life? I am not sure whether you see God as a personal saviour or not, but it is true that once you have fully repented before God, your spouse and yourself, you are cleansed of that sin. True, you do not have to go through the trail twice for the same 'crime'. Nobody has the right to ask for details that you do not want to disclose. But to use that 'past' to sabotage your future is a self-fufilling prophecy. You married men who have used information to hurt you, and you can learn that when you next tell, you do that in a different way, with little details and emotion, just the fact that you have learnt from both sides of the fences. Anyone who accepts you without wanting to know anything about you at all should set your alarms off. In all likelihood he has a bigger secret/s to hide.<P>God bless<BR>weep

Weep,<P>"You have come to a point where you have taken the blame wholeheartedly and then reached back to put the blame on the exH and marriage."<P>I have never blamed my ex-H for my decision to cheat. I have never blamed "the marriage", per se. However, I refuse to sit here and claim to anyone that my ex was a "good husband". Of course, at times he was. I will tell you straight out that faithfulness ALONE does not make a good marriage. I will not apologize for expressing that, nor will I accept anyone telling me that the mere expression of that fact means I am justifying adultery. My feelings about my ex and my marriage were very valid. What I did to cope with it was not. <P>Again, I am apparetnly expected to never be able to express how much pain my ex caused me both before my affair and afterward because many people, apparently you as well, take it as justification. This is the main reason I will not discuss it with anyone new. I flat out refuse to take ALL the blame for this marriage ending. <P>"You have also discussed before that nothing in a marriage justifies this sort of behaviour. You have extrapolated that if you were married again and had a bad marriage, you would commit adultery again just so that you can stay in the marriage and avoid divorce."<P>Yep. I know myself pretty well.<P>"It proves that you are made and in need of human companionship at whatever cost." <P>We all need human companionship. People put in solitary-confinement for a certain period of time will go crazy. In another thread, Bystander mentioned a very famous experiment that showed that a sizeable majority of people were capable of some pretty heinous behavior under certain circumstances. It is arrogance of the highest form to claim that you, or anyone else, is not capable of adultery. I used to think that too. However, I KNOW the conditions that lead me to adultery, and so far, one of them is MARRIAGE. <P>The fact that I would consider never re-marrying and a life-time of celibacy is proof that I don't need male sexual companionship at any cost. What this does prove is that DIVORCE is something so abhorent to me that I would do anything to avoid it. When I was married, I cheated. Now that I'm single, I'll be un-married and celibate. I've already proven to myself that I would throw away every shred of my self-esteem to avoid divorce, I would be willing to toss away almost everything I love and admire about myself (my educational goals, career, etc) not to mention my self-respect when I cheated. <P>Some people, maybe most, aren't really all that ashamed to be divorced. Ok, maybe for a little while, but that passes as soon as they find someone new. I think to divorce and remarry over and over and over is a joke.<P>The only reason I attempted a second marriage is because it was obvious my first husband had no intention on being faithful, and we never made the vow "till death do us part".<P>...I do live and I do love. I have a number of close freinds I trust and admire, along with my family. Some of my friends are male. It is just becoming more obvious that, what I would require in order to have a sexual relationship with a man makes it highly unlikely for it to happen. <P>I know you are right when you say that, in a way, I am "honoring" them by allowing their influence to affect my decision to enter a relationship in the future. That is called "experience". However, I am not like them. They, and many others even on this website, have very little problems swapping out partners every few years or every few decades. I simply refuse to believe that after a divorce one just "goes out and finds someone new". That is no better than what unremorseful WS do. In the whole big scheme of things, does it really matter who breaks up with whom? Or even how it is done? The end result is the same. We are all expected to just find someone else to have sex with and call it love... Big deal.<P>Just as there are many WS who do not face the impact of their betrayal, there are just as many so-called "betrayed" spouses who believe that not having sex outside the marriage is all that is required to maintain their vows. My second ex doesn't feel a shred of guilt for his part in our marriage, and doesn't feel an ounce of guilt for divorcing me. <P>He will get remarried someday, I'm sure. In my worst moments, my wish for him is that his second wife be faithful to him, but spend every last penny he has, cut him down mercilessly, refuse sex, then when she gets tired of him begging to change things and make things better, she will divorce him and take half of whatever is left. Even better if they have kids and he is forced to pay child-support or alimony. Then she could say, "but hey, I was faithful." <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited November 05, 2000).]