<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, IMO, when people who are freshly (or not quite) divorced come here and share sexually explicit stories or have quickly run off with someone new, I certainly do question whatever attachment they had with their ex.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>TS,<P>I understand that this statement is just your opinion, but where in the hell do you get off questioning someone's attachment to their spouse simply becuase a person enjoys discussing sex and is completely open about their sexual experiences? <P>So by this rationale, am I to assume that actors who film love scenes with other actors must be able to do so because they don't have an attachment to their spouse? Give me a friggin' break!<P>I like sex. I'm open about sex. And I have been told that I am very good at it. So becuase of this you think that my attachment to my wife was questionable? I was raised by a licensed sex therapist, Student. Our family dinner conversations usually start off by my own mother bringing up the topic of blowjobs! <P>I can openly discuss any sexual experience with complete strangers at any given time. I will always be able to do this because that is part of who I am. And just because I was married, it doesn't mean that the sexual experiences I have discussed were even those I shared with my wife. Most of my sexual exploration was before I even met my wife. When I speak of my sex life, I rarely will say 'who' these experiences were with. That is a violation of the other persons right to privacy. If they want to discuss it themselves, that has to be their decision.<P>And yes, I am offended!<P><BR>

Guys,<P>we all have so much pain that we are all dealing with. All of us deal with it in different ways. We all have different upbringings, different attitudes, different ways, different outlooks on life. We all live in so many different countries. That is what makes people so wonderful and exciting. We are all different.<P>We all have different experiences, feelings and emotions that we bring here. None of them are wrong. <P>I have sat here and read all the posts, and thought to myself, yep, I agree with that, or no, that's not me......<P>However, what is right for you, is right for you. It doesn't HAVE to be right for me. But I can accept it all. You do what is right for you, and I'll do what is right for me.<P>Please, please, let's not fight, or have 'words' between us. We all have so much of that going on in our personal lives, we don't need it here in our 'sanctuary'<BR>too........<P>I don't mean to just poo-poo those of you who are offended, either by [censored]'s original post, or by what has been said since. I just want to restore a little bit of "......."<P>(can't think of the word I want!!)<P>here.<P>Can we please start over?

respect,<BR>tolerance,<BR>comraderie,<P>

After reading this post, can anyone still say they don't understand why we don't yet have a President-Elect???<P>Talk about running the gamut on opinions! Guess what? I luv ya all! The bible beaters, the heathens, the atheists (yes my spelling stinks) the born agains, the hindus, the Catholics, the Jews, the buddists, the baptists - I luv ya all!<P>Let's all try to remember why we are here... Remember that we all have emotions up the kazoo, remember that it is very easy to push those emotions onto something that is inconsequential, what do psychologists call it? Transferance? Let us let this thread die its peaceful death and move on....<P>No more attacks on anyone - come on guys! <P>Thanks,<P>Mike

So THIS is what I've been missing by not popping over here often! Hi guys!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm sorry, but to the best of my knowledge, this is a 'Christian' site based on what I know of Harley.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>To solve the mystery of whether this is a Christian site or not, the answer is no. Lisanne (whom I consider an MB friend but we definitely have vastly different opinions and would probably agree not to hang out together in person, smiling at her!) and I learned on an Emotional Needs thread that this is NOT a "Christian site." Several people got up in arms about that particular post, and EN moderator Valiant replied in answer to the question.<P>I'll try to locate the post but am not to savvy about doing the links. It was a posting by "myron" if you'd like to do a search.<P>I hope everybody can just get along! Join hands. I'm okay, you're okay...yadda yadda.<P>Laura<BR>

I found the section. Here's the last part of Valiant's reply...it's on a topic entitled "limits on sexual experimentation?" And like off-color humor, this also concerned another subject possibly offensive to some. <P>"Valiant<BR>Moderator posted July 28, 2000 11:04 AM <P>....Though this is not a "Christian" forum, nor directed at any one religious belief - people who are serious about their marriages will often remember and bring up the Biblical references or their marriage vows as evidence of God's intent for His children. NO ONE is prohibited from expressing their opinion contrary to this - as long as (once again) we all stay civil.<P>Quite personally, (believing in God) we weren't "designed" by our creator for such activities as some of those mentioned in this thread. That's not my "judgement" of these activities, nor is it a Biblical "rebuke" for those involved or considering them - rather simply my observation. I think Believers who have been through this know what I'm talking about....<P>Valiant, Moderator<BR>Marriage Builders Forum"<P>Laura<BR>

Jayhawk,<BR>I don't know why you'd be offended. It is just my opinion. Like I said, all I see is what I read. You say were faithful to your wife and you say you loved her. That was then. This is now. People will "judge" you based on your current conduct. If I came across a person that talked like you in my daily life, I would have a very hard time believing they were faithful. Although, I have met people who talk like you. There are people who are into "open" marriages and whose daily life seems to revolve around the topic of sex. In fact, I've met people who can't seem to talk about anything BUT sex, mostly cause they don't know what else to talk about. You know, it was a very important part of my life before I was divorced, but it wasn't the ONLY part of my life. Just because you are "good" at it...ya think maybe there are other skills you could practice? The whole world doesn't revolve around sex. The experimentation you reference...I had my days too. Although, I tend to look back on it as kind of a sad part of my life. Any animal can copulate. Big friggin' deal. <P>Maybe this is the only area you feel proud about in your life right now. There is a great big world out there that doesn't revolve around what is in your shorts.

Nope, I changed my mind...<P>Not worth lowerng myself to that level....<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited November 25, 2000).]

Hi Student--<P>Hope you are still reading. I'm staying out of this debate, but happened to see your last post.<P>Do take your words and paste them on your mirror to read three times a day...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That was then. This is now. People will "judge" you based on your current conduct.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hugs--<P>Kathi

Not offended and love this site. Although I may not agree with everyone and everything that I have seen, the things that I have disagreed with have definitely made me look at things from another side and helped me to understand some of what my H might be going through. I think that all of us have something to contribute. This is a public BB and we are all (hopefully) adults capable of making the choice to read or not read.

oops<p>[This message has been edited by Xman (edited November 26, 2000).]

Well, you most certainly offended me--I was pretty much with WilliamJ--let's let this thread die a natural death now that we are all friends again, huh? I think that we were pretty much back on the right track. But no. . .Those were some pretty rude comments.<P>Please don't dog [censored] out anymore. I, for one, am really tired of it. He did have a point, and it's obvious that many don't agree with it. (like I said, I ride the fence over the "sex-talk" thing, it didn't offend me, but then it didn't interest me either, so I didn't read it.) <P>But you know what IS an issue with me? Busting on people who are just voicing their opinions! Dang! You want to be free to discuss what you wish to discuss. . .someone else wants to have his say--I don't want to rehash, but this is getting childish. My kids have more valid fights over getting the last 3 ounces of koolaid in the pitcher than this is getting to be!. . .<P>well, I think that we have agreed to disagree since we all have differences of opinion and let's leave it at that. <P>If you do not like what some people call a "Christian attitude," then at least try to prove yourself better by being kinder and more peace-loving than what you would consider a "christian" to be. Don't try to one-up people by being rude and contemptuous. That just proves that you enjoy a war of words and thrive on trouble-making, not negotiationg, compromising or finding solutions. (Gee wiz, sounds too much like marriage!)<P>Let's leave [censored] alone. It's water under the bridge now.<P>And maybe you should go "talk to God" some more instead.<P>Oh, while I am here, let me throw "my opinion" in there, too, not like it matters or anything: Sure, it's a woman's right to choose whether she wants to give birth, right? Okay, of course. I am a woman (now raising 1 child alone and paying child support for two others who basically live with me anyways, incidently--not exactly a picnic) and no one should tell me whether I should have to bring a child into this world or not. <P>But in 90% of the cases, rape and molestation excluded, it's also a woman's right to choose whether she has sex. That's right--it certainly IS her choice. Not to mention, her partner's choice as well. Why not go ahead and make that choice long before conception takes place and murder has to be done? Maybe one should make the decision in advance in order to keep an unwanted child from burdening a woman who should know better than to give it life.<BR>There is no excuse in this day and age. We all know where babies come from, don't we?<P>It just kinda makes sense to me. I mean, if you are willing to kill a child before it is born--burdensome, unwanted, burning up tax dollars, a potential criminal and threat to society, then why not just kill them after they are born? But then that would be horrific, wouldn't it, to go down to the local playground and snipe some snot-nosed little brats because they were "inconvenient." To me, it's the same diff. Only abortion is like this: you can't see it, therefore, it doesn't exist, right? Not to me. But then, that's just my humble opinion. I didn't get my opinion from the Bible or any of that stuff. It's common sense.<P>Like I said, we all know where babies come from, so there should be no reason for abortion, Christian doctorine or no.<P>Birth control? What's that?! Must we take a tour of the drug store counter?<P>Family planning? Huh?!<P>Abstinence before marriage?????!!!!!<P>Self-control (for men AND women)?!<P>Teaching your children about sex before they learn from their friends? Nawwwww.<P>Thinking about what you are doing before you lay down?!<P>Being selfless enough to give a child that you can't raise to one of the thousands of families that are desperate enough to pay a year's worth of income to go to China or Russia to adopt a child?<P>OH MY GOSH!! JUST SLAP ME!! Did I just force my unsolicited opinion on y'all? Did I try to dump my moral standards onto you? Guess it's just one of those "Christian" things. Can't help it. Think I will go to bed before I just get completely out of hand!<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited November 26, 2000).]

Bernzini:<P>Thank you for coming to my defense and speaking up for me (I think you've done this twice).<P>In whatever you are facing and going through, I pray God's blessings upon you and that He will sustain/keep you (as only HE can) in what you face.<P>[censored] from Texas

Bernzini - I think you missed the most important part of this...<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I thought MB was a 'Christian' site<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>and<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have contacted the WebMaster@Marriage Builders on this issue<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The above goes so far and beyond just "expressing an opinion". I had absolutely no problem with [censored] saying that he was offended by what he was reading(even though he could have stopped). What sticks in my craw is the un-retracted statement that this is a "Christian board" and that he didn't just <I>express</I> his opinion, he took steps to see that the thread and topic was censored. I know of no where that a "Christian attitude" includes intolerance and censorship, it is quite the opposite as a matter of fact.<P>I find satisfaction in the way some people can find peace thru their faith, whatever that is, but once they push that on someone else, without consent, that is where I draw the line. <P>I have no doubt that [censored] is an honorable man with devoutly held feelings and beliefs. As long as those feelings and beliefs make him a better person, then I say, "Go for it". When he, or anyone else, tries to shove their belief system down my throat or use it to hem in my life in some way, the gauntlet has been thrown down and I will respond. True Christians will try to understand that some of us feel that way and will not try to impose their religion on us. Anything else is just hypocritical.<P>My two cents...<p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited November 27, 2000).]

Student,<P>Once again, I am forced to defend myself based on “your” opinions.<P>Not that it is ANY of your business, but what you really know about me and my life could barely fill a thimble my friend! You are jumping to conclusions, you are making assumptions, you are standing high on your pedestal and you are comparing me to people you have known in your life. PLEASE do not do that! If I compared you to some women I have come across in my life, you would not like the things I would have to say.<P>Just because I have the ability to speak openly about sex does not mean that my marriage was what you would call an “open” marriage. For seven years I had only one sexual partner as did my wife, and yes, we were both completely faithful to one another. Again, you appear to be assuming that since I can talk about sex that I must be swinger or a slut. Well I’m sorry to disappoint you Stu, but I don’t run in those circles. And just because I choose not to remain celibate for the next however many years of my life now that my marriage is over does not mean that my marriage or my attitude is any less pure.<P>In reality, sex is a very small portion of my life, but it is something that everyone seems to have in common and is an easy topic to discuss when you want to break away from the misery we all experience during a divorce. I could get into long discussions regarding a variety of topics, but not all people would find them interesting so I chose sex. Remember Student, I too went to college, I too have a degree and I too learned about more things than just sex during my college years.<P>It’s obvious that you and I are just not going to agree and that is fine with me. I don’t want to fight with you and I don’t want either of us to keep feeling like we have to defend ourselves. You made your mistakes and I’m still trying to figure out what mine were. I know that I’m not perfect, but I also know that I did not deserve to be treated like I was by the woman who claimed to love me enough to become my wife.<P>Student, if you wish discuss this matter in anymore detail, please feel free to contact me at jhawk93@kc.rr.com It may be best for both of us to keep this nastiness in private!<BR>

[censored],<BR> I HAD been coming here for over a year but STOPPED coming here (and so have a few "veterans") for this very reason. We were offended not only by the "Crude" jokes but by the way some people that were still married "Carried on" with each other here. TOTALLY against all that this board (not to even MENTION GOD) stands for. <BR> So, anyway, count MY vote for YOUR opinion please. (NO RECOUNTS!! ) <BR> I'm not judging ANYONE, really I'm not. I enjoy a good laugh as much as the next guy and I'm SURE GOD has a sense of humor too (we were made in HIS image right? I just beleive that a "Different" force came here and is trying to ruin a really really beautiful place. One, without, I would have NEVER survived this nightmare. <BR> Make a joke, OK fine. But wait until you're NOT married (I hope this doesn't happen) to start "scoping out" the field. Most here are WAY to vunerable (We ALL are) to handle it right.. Enough said, <BR>GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK<BR>

To PleaseHelp:<P>Frank,<P>Thank you so much for what I think might be the first response I've had since the origination of the thread, that understand my heart's convictions.<P>That's a good point about God having a sense of humor, because we were created in "His Image" - and I do believe He does enjoy clean humor.<P>My whole point was, some of the humor had gotten crude and was demeaning to both sexes which offended me.<P>Contrary to whatever anyone might think, to me this is a "Christian Thread" only by virture of the founder's/administrators (Dr's Willard & Steve Harley) beliefs.<P>This is not to say, this site is off limits to non-Christians, but if non-Christians come here to post/vent...I just feel they need to understand where they are posting.<P>Thanks again Frank for the response.<P>[censored] from Texas

Hi [censored],<P>I've always liked your posts, they are very uplifting, and when I read them, I hear this James Earl Jones type voice. It suits you.<P>I am Christian, always have been, always will be. I understood what you were saying, but thought people might misconstrue, as many have.<P>The values in the Judeo-Christian world are hard to live up to, but that is what our society is founded on. I know you would agree with me, I've found the closer to them that I live, the happier I am. Very few succeed in meeting them, but I've found much more peace in my life, the more I try. Have a long way to go.<P>And there's the kicker, being judged as intolerant, when you try, when nothing could be further from the truth. Most people are understanding of the hurt racial or bigoted remarks cause, but don't seem to understand what you found offensive. Faith levels run the gamut here, but the common thread among all is a good heart.<P>You are as well-mannered as you are articulate in your threads, and I enjoy them immensely.<P><BR>

HoneyWest:<P>I don't know what to say about your response, I am both humbled and honored.<P>As I mentioned in a previous post, I never dreamed I would open up the 'can of worms' that I did and incur so much wrath.<P>Again, I am blessed and honored if in previous posts I have said things that might have uplifted and ministered to you in whatever you might be facing.<P>Just let me encourage you that "nothing is ever as bad as it seems" - "This too shall pass" - "You will get through this, even if you don't think you will" - "God's Grace is His enabling power that enables us to go through and endure situations that seem beyond our level of endurance".<P>Thank you again!<P>[censored] from Texas

[censored]<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Contrary to whatever anyone might think, to me this is a "Christian Thread" only by virture of the founder's/administrators (Dr's Willard & Steve Harley) beliefs. <BR>This is not to say, this site is off limits to non-Christians, but if non-Christians come here to post/vent...I just feel they need to understand where they are posting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Repeating my earlier quoted material: "Valiant <BR>Moderator posted July 28, 2000 11:04 AM <BR>....<B>Though this is not a "Christian" forum, nor directed at any one religious belief</B> - people who are serious about their marriages will often remember and bring up the Biblical references or their marriage vows as evidence of God's intent for His children. NO ONE is prohibited from expressing their opinion contrary to this - as long as (once again) we all stay civil….”<P>I don’t understand what you mean, “<I>where they are posting</I>.” Okay, to you, this is a Christian forum despite evidence to the contrary. You choose to utilize this forum within the scope of your beliefs. That’s fine. Please allow others the same choices and freedoms. Expressing opinions is wonderful. The act of censorship is intrusive and unwelcome (in my opinion). Thank you.<P>For what it's worth, I thought that other thread got silly and rather crude. But so what. This has been blown way out of proportion. There was no intent to hurt or offend anyone.<P>I don't like heavy metal or rap music. So what. May I choose for others?? Uhm, no. It's not my place.<P>Sigh, I guess I get a little sad feeling when professed Christians start trying to make choices for everyone else. It seems so...unChristian.<P>Laura<BR>