I guess I feel the same as AGG.<P>Since my wife left me, I take care of 100% of the domestic engineering in my house and now pay ALL the bills on my salary alone. I only have my son every other week, but when I do have him, obviously I have complete responsibility for raising and taking care of him.<P>I'm sure there are some men out there who do absolutely nothing to help take care of the house or raise the kids. I was/am NOT one of them. My STBX would say the same thing.<P>I'm always a little disappointed when people make sweeping generalizations about a group of people based on their experience with a few poor examples. While I can understand how they might feel that way, it's always a little sad to see...<P><P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

Hey guys,<P>Not to rain on y'alls parade but the stats speak for themselves...<P>Fact is we are the exception...most deadbeat parents are dads...<P>The good thing about the men on this board, is we really care about our children and a lot of us were abandonded by our exes or STBXs.<P>There reality is this...I hate hearing about us men being lumped into gender groupnings relating to parenting and domestic things, however, look around, who craps on there kids and spouces most often? IMO it is men..I see my friends doing it all the time...<P>So guys don't get all bent out of shape about these generalisations...We are a cut above the statistics, and I'm certain every lady on these boards know it.<P>It does piss me off that those deadbeat dads have given us guys a somewhat bad name when it comes to parenting.<P>Bill

I do agree with Bill on every point he made. Most deadbeat parents are the dad's. But I see the guys here as an exception to that rule. <P>I usually don't get into little debates like this because it can be so draining but this one is something I'm experiencing myself. My stbx is a deadbeat dad. But that doesn't mean I'm bitter towards men. Just the opposite, as a matter of fact. I know that not all men are like him. Hell, he was a non-functioning parent when he lived with us, I don't know why that would change once he left! <P>So, don't worry about statistics guys! We women don't lump you guys into the same category!<P>Mitzi

I have two completely different sets of friends. <P>My one friend is a gentlemen farmer and is a stay at home dad. His wife is a CFO for a multinational company and justr got back from a 2 week trip around the world prior to Thanksgiving, so he gives almost 100% of the child care. That is how they have arranged their life.<P>My other friend works, his wife doesn't buyt because of severe allergies, she can't do much household stuff or stuff outdoors. SO this guy is responsible for cleaning as well as kid stuff outdoors. He is also active in scouting for his son, plus church and library. SO he does well above "50%" of child raising.<P>My other set of friends, well they are compeletly different. The one was an assistant coach on my d's softball team along with his d. HE was always late for the Fri nite games beacuse he went out on Fris after work no matter what. He also missed some Sat games because he was out doing something with his friends for the weekend. <BR>He and a bunch of guys also golf and play bball and hold season ending parties with strippers. I would say that they do well below the "50%" line.<P>I know 50% of child raising is a figment of everyones imagination, but it seems like thats what everyone shoots for.<P>I am 180 degrees different from what my father was in child raising. I'm beginning to believe that my x is trying to live the same as her parents. I think her grandparents and babysitters raised hher and her borthers/sisters.

Hi everyone,<BR>When I roll out the "statistics" lots of people think I'm man-bashing. All I'm doing is pointing out trends, and we all know what the "trend" is guys. If you don't follow that trend, then more power to you. <P>There are "trends" for women too. All of us have heard stories about women who work their poor husbands like mules in order to support the big house in the burbs, and fancy clothes, expensive trips, etc. My advisor is one of these poor guys. He and his wife have three kids. She has no physical ailments that I know of, and no other outside responsibilities like taking care of a sick parent or something like that. So, we all have a hard time figuring out why she needs an au-pair to help with the kids. We all have a hard time figuring out why she needs the big house out in the burbs that requires my boss to drive an hour each way to work. She seems to need all these "things", yet gripes to all of us about the long hours my advisor puts in. Hmm. Yet, another co-worker of mine, with his wife and two kids, seem to get by just fine on his $20,000 salary. He is able to live close to school, and comes home every day at 5:00 pm. His wife has found a playgroup network where they share baby-sitting, enough for her to work a couple of days a week part-time where her daughter attends school. Another co-worker of mine stays home with his kid 2-3 days a week at works out of his home while his wife works. There are exceptions, but they are rare in my experience. <P>All of my advisor's kids are very young, so it is understandable that his wife stays home. However, in a few years when they start school, it is going to be really interesting to see if she will go out and find a job to help pay for this extravagent lifestyle. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 06, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>Hi everyone,<BR>When I roll out the "statistics" lots of people think I'm man-bashing. All I'm doing is pointing out trends, and we all know what the "trend" is guys. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're missing <B>my</B> point. I'm not arguing with statistics (although I must say that what you are rolling out is not statistics, but your observations - sorry to be picky, but I'm engineer too, so you understand, I hope). <P>Rather, I'm saying that the whole discussion of "men vs. women" is probably not very fruitful for these forums. I think all of us on these forums have been through a lot of pain, and need a lot of healing. I don't think that saying "all men are jerks" or "all women are sluts", even if these might have been our observations, is conducive to the healing process.<P>These forums are most useful when they are used to help people, not to divide people. Look what happens to every divisive thread; it gets ugly!<P>AGG

goodguy,<BR>Ok, so I'm not technically rolling out statistics...<P>All I did was basically state my "preference" and why I personally believe a romantic relationship is not likely to be very desirable for someone like me and a few people jump on my back. I never said "all" men. I never even said "most". I did say "alot" of the men fit the pattern I suggested. Like I said, you all know the trend. You all are doing things to change that trend. Good for you.<P>Heck, I didn't even place judgement on it. If the woman these theoretical men are with are happy about his level of participation in domestic/childcare, then that is all that really matters. My friends/family don't seem to be griping about it. I just observe their relationships and know I couldn't be in them. <P>I just know me. I've never said the kind of man who would fit my definition of a partner doesn't exist. I just happen to believe that the percentage is very small. Soooo, given the fact I'm not even out looking, paired with the fact that I work and associate with men who tend to be on the conservative side...guess what? The odds are slim. There is really nothing to debate.

<BR>Not to be divisive, but...I have been on these boards for over a year now and when I see trends or statistics refered to here I have never looked at it as refering to me or the folks on this forum.<P>I tell you what pisses me off is how so many of us tend to go off half cocked over a question or a sentence or even a word.<P>The thread asking if anyone was offend by the sexual connotations really sparked a huge debate. It ultimately caused the owners of this site to add a moderator to this board.<P>The thing is everything posted here is basicly opinions, experience, strenth and hope.<P>Why is it necesarry to nit pick everything to pieces?<P>My good friend TheStudent seems to get a lot of folks all worked up when she shares her experienced based opinions. <P>Since we are all alleged adults can we not agree to disagree??<P>I'm not one to squash anothers experience nor get offended by their opinion based on that experience...<P>This is my experience based opinion...now can we get back to the original nature of this particular thread <P>Bill

Just wanted to say that I couldn't agree more with ya, Bill. How the heck are you anyway?<P>Hey TS, why you have to go stirring up trouble with your OPINION? LOL, Just kidding!! Talk to you later....<P>I love this site...<P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com<p>[This message has been edited by jamie-lee (edited December 06, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WilliamJ:<BR><B> <P>I tell you what pisses me off is how so many of us tend to go off half cocked over a question or a sentence or even a word.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm sorry if I came across half-cocked in my posts. The image is kinda funny, though; is it "half" lengthwise or widthwise? <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Since we are all alleged adults can we not agree to disagree??</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Bill, I thought I was doing <B>exactly</B> what you suggested: I disagreed. I wasn't telling TS to see things my way; I just pointed out that there is another point of view out there; mine.<P>I didn't pull [censored]'s approach of telling people to stop voicing their opinions, so frankly I'm puzzled why my difference of opinion with TS is all of a sudden "childish". Can you elaborate on that?<P>I guess I feel that I started out trying to have a discussion of the different opinions out there. But somehow I was told that I'm being childish for disagreeing, and that we should just learn to disagree... I'm confused. Maybe with this circuitous logic you guys can prove that I am my own grandfather, too(?)<P>AGG <P>

Hey AGG, I don't know you too well and dont know your current status, but I hope you are coping well with whatever it is that you are going thru in your relationship.<P>Now, maybe I can help you understand why it seemed that you were not merely disagreeing...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>originally by AGG....<BR>I didn't pull [censored]'s approach of telling people to stop voicing their opinions, so frankly I'm puzzled why my difference of opinion with TS is all of a sudden "childish". Can you elaborate on that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Maybe it's because you said<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But please, don't make generalizations about all men.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>further saying...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>IMHO, and it would be a shame to turn these boards into a men or women bashing frenzy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And must I remind you that in essence you called her opinion (using your words), <B>"nonsense"</B> and <B>"crap"</B>.<P>So if you were misunderstood about getting "half cocked", I guess I can understand your confusion!<P>By the way Bill, the image of being half cocked is funny, but you are the man that came up with...getting your ashes hauled,lol.<P><BR>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com<P>[This message has been edited by jamie-lee (edited December 06, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by jamie-lee (edited December 06, 2000).]

Hi TS,<P>Causing trouble again I see. <P>Jamie-Lee "all, most, many" gets pretty offensive sometimes. I realize it is fashionable to blame for all the ills of the world today on men, but it is counter productive. <P>Heck, it is even in our schools. My now 13 year old came home from school two years ago and announced to my W, that he wished he was a girl. My W asked why. He said that "men are bad and he didn't want to be bad."<P>My W asked where he got that idea and he answered "from school." She asked "what do you mean?" Well it seems that his teacher "rolled out the statistics" and basically stated that if men were like women there would be no troubles in the world.<P>I was livid and had a chat with the principle of the school. And since, I have been very very touchy about "statistics" and the "all men, most men, many men" statments. I don't see why women can get away with making those statements any more than men can. AND WE CAN'T, in these "enlightened days".<P>So you can see that perhaps you have posted to a few "sensitive men". <P>As for TS's perferences, well TS knock yourself out. But I am still betting that once you get out of school, a new world will open up for you. <P>Does that mean I have to keep posting here for years to find out the answer? Please hustle on that dissertation will you TS. <P>Take care you all. As usual, this is definitely invigorating. <P>JL

Thank you for clarifying my point, Jamie...<P>AGG,<BR>I wasn't necessarily talking about you in my reply...<P>I am completely open to debates concerning all issues we as divorcees go through...<P>My concern is the manner in which these debates occur...<P>There have been way too inflamitory replies here lately, and I guess I infered some of that in your post. If these were unintentional I appologies for my inference...<P>What got me was the directness I infered in your, for lack of a better term, attack on TheStudent...<P>She has gotten a lot of heat here lately on her views...<P>She is a very passionate person that has strong convictions, and gets taken to task on that all too often...<P>Like I said right or wrong they are her views, as your's are your's, and mine are mine...<P>So in all fairness to you...<P>What is your story?<P>And I can tell we shall be exchanging in some lively debates and I look forward to it <P>Anyhoo...I hope you have a good night.<P>Friends????<P>Bill

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jamie-lee:<BR><B>Hey AGG, I don't know you too well and dont know your current status, but I hope you are coping well with whatever it is that you are going thru in your relationship.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Darn, I wish <B>I</B> knew my status . I've been on MB for six months (under a different user name, until W started keeping an eye on my posts). I've done the slow migration from EN to GQII when I realized the "not in-love with you" speach meant "I'm screwing someone else". I'm still Plan A'ing, but I have the feeling I'm gonna end up as a regular on this forum . So I guess I was just testing the waters when I stepped into doo-doo in this thread, huh? Perhaps this shows that I'm not coping too well; sorry!<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And must I remind you that in essence you called her opinion (using your words), [b]"nonsense"</B> and <B>"crap"</B>.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmmm, I see your point. My apologies. In all honesty, I never meant to call anyone's opinion "crap". I always value others' opinions even if I disagree with them (well, mostly). What I <B>meant</B> to say was that TS's phrase "fun-time Dad" was, in my opinion, crap, because I found it to be an insult, rather than an opinion. Hope this clears it up.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WilliamJ:<BR><B><BR>What got me was the directness I infered in your, for lack of a better term, attack on TheStudent...<P>She has gotten a lot of heat here lately on her views...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I understand, and I apologize for my tone. I've seen some of the previous controversy you've mentioned, so I understand that there is an increased edginess here these days. Like I said above, I was not taking issue with her opinion, but with her terminology. I guess I repeated her error by using some "strong" words. Again, I apologize for my words, though not for my opinion.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>What is your story?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Well, as I said above, I've been at MB for six months, mostly under a different user name until my W started checking up on me. I figure she'll eventually "find" me again, but oh well.<P>Like I said, I went through the whole ringer of "not in love with you" to finding out she was sleeping with a co-worker for months (but of course that was "just a symptom"), to currently trying to save my marriage. We are in-home-separated, with two tiny kids.<P>So technically I still don't belong on this forum, but being an engineer, I like to be prepared (right, TS? ).<P>I'll tell you, this is the funnest and least depressing board of the bunch, so I do enjoy lurking here. I'll just try to stay out of further controversy, I promise. JL can attest to my good behavior on the other boards, right JL?<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Friends????<P>Bill</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Absolutely. That's exactly why I'm here!<P>AGG<P><p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited December 06, 2000).]

AGG,<P>Just wanted you to know that I did understand where you were coming from. It is MEN,like yourself who I thank God for everyday. And though things are Sh!tty as hell with my marriage, I must also give credit where credit is due with my stbx. He is a good father to our kids. And though we are seperated even by state, he does his damnest to keep in touch with them and financially help me.<P>So you say your not coping so well. Understandable, given the circumstances, but we are here for you. I really do see this site as an extended family and with people who genuinely care. As you know, we may argue, debate, bicker, call names, and so forth, but hopefully in the end, just like family we put it behind us and are there for one another when it counts...<P>God knows I wouldn't know what I would have done without this site...<P>Oh by the way, you really do seem to be A Good Guy!!<P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Well, well, well. Isn't this FUN!!!<P>I'm glad you all are sticking up for me. I don't remember too many things that anyone has ever said to me on MB that has actually offended me. I don't even feel all that attacked. I LOVE a good debate. Bring it on!!<P>JL,<BR>my all-time favorite "sparring" partner...I'm hurrying on this dissertation as quickly as I can! <P>You know as well as I do that underneath all my griping is a secret fear that I'm just too wierd for "most" men. I have only have one friend who has a relationship I'd consider equal. The rest of my women friends appear to believe in the "man is the head of the household" stuff. It works for them. <P>Rather than continue to fight my wierdness I'm trying to accept it with as much grace as possible. Which isn't very graceful sometimes. <P>I just got done reading Country Guy's thread about deadbeat dads...<P>I know this sucks, but I don't want to be a kid's step-mom. If the ex-wife died or is completely out of the picture then I would consider it though. The whole visitation, child support thing is not something I want to deal with. I want my own kids so that if any guy I end up with decides to haul-butt, I don't have to negotiate any of that stuff either. I don't need the child-support and if he wants to be involved in my kids life, fine, but he won't get a court-ordered mandate to make me hand them over. <P>It is a trade-off though. There are some very nice men my age who have kids. I'm cutting out another slice of the male population by ruling them out. Oh well. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 07, 2000).]

TS,<P>Hurry, Hurry, I got to the answer. <P>I tried to post to your other thread, with my opinion on the head of household thing, but it doesn't seem to let me. Not sure why.<P>What did you do TS, put a block on Just Learning? <P>Must go.<P>JL

JL,<P>Who? Moi? Never! <P>Don't worry. It didn't recognize my username a couple of weeks ago. I thought the moderator was kicking me out for stirring up too much trouble!