I'm feeling that this is all pretty scary right at the moment. I'm not really a confronter, myself, but I'm not afraid to confront an issue if it is something that needs to be done. My H, on the other hand, will avoid confrontation until Hell Freezes... no matter how simple the matter is. He won't EVEN ask me where I've been, if I come in after him. That may seem pretty insignificant to some people, but I've literally been gone for days, without telling him, and he NEVER asks where I was. I take the kids with me - but still, what would happen if something was wrong - would HE even notice I didn't come back? He can be gone for days, without calling or checking in at all (He works out of town). (Then he wonders why I won't move to Australia with him???? HUH!) <P>The bottom line here is that for ELEVEN years I've been the RELATIONSHIP in my marriage - I'm not interested in continuing this situation. I've *Plan A* 'd for so long that I AM the new person. I HAVE a life. My kids and I are NEW people~! I realize this may not make a lot of sense - but I've been watching the kids. One S is like me - he makes relationships happen, even with his friends (I hope he finds a really GOOD W - otherwise he's in for a lifetime of PAIN~!) and he's the only one of our kids who has a relationship with H. My S could have a 'relationship' with a door knob - and I'm finding the same is true for me. <P>I feel like I've enabled H to be an avoider - although I realize he was an avoider before I came along. I've enabled it to continue.<P>How does one quit enabling this kind of behavior - I am feeling pretty stupid right now - I've lived with this situation for almost 11 years, and I wasn't aware that the problems we were having were so totally devastating until the last several years - I thought I was just not a loving enough wife. I've done everything I know to do - I can't be the whole shibang here - there has to be a 'somebodyelse' in the picture.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seekingjoy:<BR><B>My H, on the other hand, will avoid confrontation until Hell Freezes. I've literally been gone for days, without telling him, and he NEVER asks where I was. He can be gone for days, without calling or checking in at all (He works out of town). (Then he wonders why I won't move to Australia with him???? HUH!) <P>The bottom line here is that for ELEVEN years I've been the RELATIONSHIP in my marriage - I'm not interested in continuing this situation. I've *Plan A* 'd for so long that I AM the new person. I HAVE a life. One S is like me - and he's the only one of our kids who has a relationship with H. I feel like I've enabled H to be an avoider.<P>How does one quit enabling this kind of behavior - I thought I was just not a loving enough wife. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're having major feelings about things that to him may be practical matters of habit that he could easily have changed for you, even had the changes seemed arbitrary to him, especially if the changes had happened early in the marriage (it's gonna be tougher now).<P>First, doesn't your leaving for days with no word and no way to contact you give him license to do the same? Of course it does.<P>Almost everything that you see as absence of good behaviour on his part is something that either developed over time, or waned over time, because you didn't communicate adequately to him that things should be otherwise. <P>He feels he loves you, that he does what he should or at least what he can, and that you are a harridan for wanting something different or more. That last part is indeed his failing; but his feeling about what he should do is a product of what you've let him do or not do over the years.<P>Should he have thought of these things on his own? Of course. But men are wired poorly in that regard, and superior women should anticipate their shortcomings. Remedial relationship-handling should be an ongoing part of the curriculum.<P>If H is an evil ogre or an incorrigible lout, by all means divorce him so that your kids can be like all the other kids at school with divorced parents, and you can start all over again too. OTOH, you could throw out your old ideas about how to fix your marriage (the ones that didn't work), and start with some new assumptions and a more gradual set of objectives. After all, your marriage didn't get this bad overnight, and your H doesn't sound actively malicious.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lora:<BR><B>I think my H might be the biggest one of all time. He left 3 months ago and hasn't talked to me since. He talks to his family about the weather. He didn't show up on Thanksgiving after he said he would be there.<P>So, do you have any ideas on how to get him to do something... anything?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Saw a bit of myself here (except no OW), but I'm going to leave that aside. Let me just say this: every day he is drifting farther from everything that makes life worth living (the OW is buoying him for now, but she will get fed up and leave, if I'm right about what's going on with him), and I doubt he means to be doing it. If it is depression, the best writing I've ever seen to help someone who doesn't understand it is Melville's short story "Bartleby the Scrivener." You should read it.<P>Know this too: every time he says he will be somewhere, or do something, then winds up not doing it, another boulder of shame and guilt is added to the burden that is depressing him. <P>If I were you, and assuming I had any love or even ordinary compassion left for him, I would write a long letter and include a depression inventory, like a HAM-D. I would tell him how much I loved him, and how the things that have happened that hurt me would not preclude a bright future ... BUT ... he has to get help. And the help is psychiatric, probably including drugs. And if he goes on drugs he has to be communicative about whether the drugs are doing what they're designed to do, not quietly keep taking them if they're making him drowsy, or stop taking them on account of the same problem or any other problem.<P>Talking to one's parents about the weather indicates that either you or they are so screwed up that it's too painful to discuss matters. Since we already know that H is screwed up, that would seem to decide the issue. OW is not long-term material or she would have met the folks by now. Thus he should see at some point that he needs to disconnect from her and reconnect with the important people in his life. <P>Inability to discern or unwillingness to act with respect to who is important in his life are other signs that he has a problem. You may fail in the effort to drag him to the right answers, but if you point him in the right direction he may find them on his own.

Lora:<P>I think it would be quite difficult to do Plan B and still be in the same household. So, to net this down from my different messages, if you want to save the marriage, I think the best chance is to keep them in the household, figure out some way to emotionally detach from this fiasco (make the changes you need to, build your own life and do your own thing), and plan an effective intervention.<P>I don’t thinK I’d go as far as to say there’s no chance in these situations, but I think it’s a 5+ year plan without counseling, and still with dismal odds even at that time period. They will do everything possible to resist counseling. That’s why it’s so important to find a trusted friend or family member, who is quite assertive, to take control of the situation. Without that, I don’t think it’s worth trying to save the marriage. Just my two cents. I’m sure plenty on this board will disagree.<P>Seekingjoy:<P>It sounds to me like both of you are in the state of withdrawal in your marriage. Since it’s not a new situation, before giving up on this I’d seek marriage counseling. It’s possible this can be fixed if both of you learned new ways to communicate. If you don’t do that, it’s likely one of you will start an affair to get your needs met and then you’ll be done. <BR>

Sisyphus -<P>Thanks for the advice - I asked early in marriage that he adjust some of his habits - and several times - insisted that he do it. <P>It wasn't until I realized that asking him to change the way he did things wasn't going to EVER work (in the past three years), that I started immitating what he does - in an effort to "show him how it feels" - this has backfired in that he thinks I've accepted his apathetic view of relationships. <P>We've been to counselors. He tells them everything is okay - and they start working on me... Well - I don't mind changing, but accepting all of his behavior problems, denial, self-inflicted celebacy and habitual illnesses as NORMAL is NOT something I'm prepared to do. If he were truly ILL - I'd drive him to the closest Dr. - however, he's had ER Dr's who suggested a mental institution - because he's so dramaticly obsurd when he is ill. (Oh, it hurts so bad, somebody just drive me to the railroad track so I can walk in front of a train!) The ER Dr laughed so hard - the nurse thought HE was sick. The problem was a pinched nerve that was well enough by morning for him to go to work with and work through the next three weeks until it appeared magically again on the weekend (after agreeing to do something he felt he shouldn't HAVE to do - even after I told him he didn't HAVE to do it with us), when the only Dr available was ER. When he finally DID agree to go to a regular Dr, almost six weeks later, the Dr, suggested he quit spending so much time in front of the TV and get some exercise to relieve the problem. (It's postural - He slouches on the couch!)<P>I've spent 11 years with this wonderful guy - trying to convince myself and others that it's okay to live like normal people during the week when he's gone and become a totally disfunctional family every weekend, while he spends his time with us sleeping, staring at us doing normal things, or better yet waiting for him to decide we are more important than the low-life substitute friends he hangs out at the C-store with, and come home eventually to spend quality time telling us to be quiet while he watches a violent movies with way too many bad words that the kids aren't allowed to say in it. <P>I have NO objection to starting over with NEW ideas that might work - to get him to participate in family life. If you by some chance happen to have some of these ideas laying around the house to suggest - pass them on - I'd be willing to read them, use them, do them, etc... and I'll do so with a heart full of faith that they WILL work, and H will be a loving wonderful husband. If however, your ideas are those tried and true 'Plan A' type of things that say - just give him all the love he needs and he'll come around, I've got REAL NEWS for you HONEY - HE WON'T! I've been there. I've hung on, given more than I can believe, and tried everything that came down the pike - if it in anyway seemed feasible. <P>I don't want to be a single parent, I couldn't imagine ever actually sayind the 'D' word, again. I don't want one! The choices are becoming rather few in my situation however, H is NOT just in denial about our marriage and relationship, he's in denial about finances, business, his job, his friends, his life (which HE's chosen to live without me - in the same HOUSE). I've paid off one 'bankruptcy' after he decided it wasn't worth his time and effort to pay the bills and recover financially, while he CHOSE to earn minimum wage at a job that should have been paying him not only a fair wage, but should have been paying him a VERY nice six figure income... Other men in the same position earn that!!! <P>Being SUPERIOR to my husband was not my choice. He determined early on in the marriage, that I should 'do' a list of specific things, to 'free him' to be 'with us more'... What a laugh... The more I took on to 'free up his time' the less time he spent with us. I would ask him to spend time with us, frequently refusing to take on more, because I was overdoing it as it was - I still had kids to take care of on top of all his requests. At one point - because I was trying to do what he wanted done - to 'save the marriage' - I was literally working 18 hour days, 4 - 9 months pregnant, taking care of two young children, taking care of our home, and STILL on top of that - managing our household finances - After the baby was born - I continued that schedule, taking the baby with me for three more months... <P>We've been to counseling - the only counselor that he couldn't convince everything was okay (on his part) he wouldn't go back to after about six weeks. <P>I'm currently seeing a counselor, I thought maybe I could find further answers on the MB forum, because the counselor highly recommended getting a divorce - since he won't seek counseling - or get counseling - so that we can actually have a marriage. Even his relationships with the kids are stilted... Without me as part of the relationship - he doesn't have one. They don't respond to him. They ignore him - not because I've taught them to - but because he's ignored them for so long - it's reciprical... <BR>______________<BR>If H is an evil ogre or an incorrigible lout, by all means divorce him so that your kids can be like all the other kids at school with divorced parents, and you can start all over again too. OTOH, you could throw out your old ideas about how to fix your marriage (the ones that didn't work), and start with some new assumptions and a more gradual set of objectives. After all, your marriage didn't get this bad overnight, and your H doesn't sound actively malicious. <BR>_______________<P>My H isn't 'actively malicious' - he ACTIVELY refuses to participate in life with a family and ACTIVELY avoids anything that looks like family activity. Somehow I say your response as being malicious - maybe that is defensive - or maybe it's reality - I don't know. I don't see an answer in your response - I do see a judgement. As I write this, he's again 'sick in bed' on his day off, and can't be up to participate in life with his family - this is week #6, of his latest - sinus infection, and he WON'T go to the DR to get meds. But he's gone out 3 of the last 6 weekends to help his 'friends' move or do something, though he's spent NO time with his family!<P>I'll check back - if I was wrong - maybe you can offer some constructive suggestions in another post. If I'm wrong about your post - I'm sorry.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seekingjoy:<BR><B>I've accepted his apathetic view of relationships. We've been to counselors. He tells them everything is okay.<P>I have NO objection to starting over with NEW ideas that might work - to get him to participate in family life. H is NOT just in denial about our marriage and relationship, he's in denial about finances, business, his job, his friends, his life (which HE's chosen to live without me - in the same HOUSE). <P>We've been to counseling - the only counselor that he couldn't convince everything was okay (on his part) he wouldn't go back to after about six weeks. <P>Even his relationships with the kids are stilted... Without me as part of the relationship - he doesn't have one. They don't respond to him. They ignore him. <P>My H isn't 'actively malicious' - he ACTIVELY refuses to participate in life with a family and ACTIVELY avoids anything that looks like family activity. Somehow I say your response as being malicious. As I write this, he's again 'sick in bed' on his day off.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I'll try to cut to the chase. I see potential depression on his part, and the psychosomatic stuff with the back has been well-described in one of Howard Stern's two books. Howard had a bad back until he found a famous doctor in NYC who teaches that men have bad backs because it's the only socially acceptable physical problem (and it masks psychic pain) --he puts men through a training course that puts an end to that. <P>Why can he jump up and help others? Because he gets some strokes from them that elude him at home ... at home if he does something it's either not enough or "that's what you should have been doing for us all along ... why can't you do that all the time."<P>Now, he may be irretrievable. Or it may just be that your marriage is lost, and the two of you would be better off restarting with other people. OTOH, Dr. Harley tells lots of people things that help them ... but I believe counselors' approaches are shaped by their experiences, and both are highly variable. So check out Dr. John Gottman and others, and see if you can get your husband to do a depression inventory. "Everything's OK" for him -- compared to what? If you have a depressive's set of expectations and no one is drilling holes in your teeth without anesthetic, then "everything's OK". If he gets on an antidepressant, he needs to be scrupulously honest about how it's working, and he may need to change drugs until he hits on the right one. And you will need to exercise more patience, because it doesn't get fixed overnight, despite what the drug companies would have everyone believe.<P>Your kids don't respond to him because you don't respect him, and long ago he sensed that, consciously or unconsciously; and conformed to how you felt about him. Your kids picked up on that. I'm not blaming you, and don't blame yourself. What looked like blame to you was a little shock ... not to "blame" but to try to show you the part that you may play in this. On a Hummer, when one tire goes flat, the tire on the opposite side is automatically flattened in order to restore balance (which is why you find Explorers upside-down, but Hummers stay right-side-up) ... your being strong and less affected than other people might be in your situation can itself be a problem.<P>I was in a marriage where that was the case. The pattern that developed was that every time I began growing and reaching higher and making more money and things got better, I got hit with a lot of negativity (the marriage would get painful--when I finally didn't sink back of my own accord and she determined to leave she "had to do this while times are good"). Consequently, I would get depressed and fade back again. I thought it was a competitive thing. <P>But in retrospect, my ex conceived of me in only one way. My moving ahead in any significant way felt foolish and false to her, and if it continued, it would change the dynamic of our relationship--and once that happened she really would be vulnerable should I stumble again. So that had to be headed off--by cutting me off at the knees. There were certainly other things--her chronic illness, dependence on a questionable antidepressant, desire to live overseas, and unsatisfying career. At many different turning points the marriage could have been saved, but over time the path became narrower, the drops more precipitious, and it got darker and harder to see ... we ultimately didn't make it. Fortunately, there were no children involved (unless you count the two of us--we're all somebody's children). <P>So my closing point would be ... you can cut this off now, or keep searching for answers. My educated guess is that there are some out there for both of you together, and even though going in that direction may be harder than splitting and going it alone, in the end it will be more rewarding. Your lives. Your choices.

Here's the link for Bartleby: <A HREF="http://www.bartleby.com/129/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.bartleby.com/129/</A>

And here's a Harley article on Depression. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5014_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5014_qa.html</A>

Sisyphus -<P>Thanks for the response - I agree with you that the main problem here is 'depression' on his part. I've NEVER thought otherwise. However, I don't know how to fight depression 'for him' and he won't do anything about it himself. He's 'been there for so long - he thinks it's normal'. I'm an avid reader, and have read many books articles and other information on this topic, because I recognized it in him shortly after we were married. I've tried everything I know of to help him overcome this - but it is something HE has to do. He has to make the choice. I can help him - but I can't DO it for him. <P>I honestly believe that I've actually 'stayed too long' - because I think he may have actually gotten help for the problem, if I'd left early on, so he'd have realized that I was serious. But, I'm one of those strange people that feels if you love someone enough, they will eventually love themselves. I've learned - the hard way - it doesn't work that way. <P>I'm trying at this point to just get through the holidays that he HATES so much - and get past this season - so maybe I don't ruin the holidays for our children for the rest of their lives too. <P>It's a real chore, some days just to be happy and content - when I really want to scream at him - "Don't you see what you are doing to your family?" I know he doesn't - he thinks I'm the problem, because I want to 'enjoy life' by laughing now and then. He's content to just wonder through glum land with a frown and a chip on his shoulder.<P>Sorry - I'm not in the mood to deal with his depression tonight. I'm rather tired of dealing with it. <P>I don't think the kids relationship with him has anything to do with my respecting him - I honestly feel it has more to do with the fact that he's not interested in a relationship with them - and he hasn't put any effort into developing a relationship with them... <P>Just my non-expert opinion - but the counselor came up with the same opinion after discussing it with one of the kids. Maybe it holds a bit of water after all!<P>

Well well well... here I thought I was married to the biggest conflict avoider on the planet. Lora, seekingjoy, distressed, thank you so much for coming here and describing your H's. I've been coming to mb since April, usually posting in emotional needs. I moved out on Monday. Even after 6 days of separation, my H is making no effort to communicate with me. I figured it was time to venture to the divorcing board and see what's happening in this forum. This post has descriptions that fit my marriage to a T. I'm glad to hear some opinions about the Plan A simply not working on conflict avoiders. In many ways, the first 11 years of my marriage was a Plan A. I made it possible for my H to be a conflict avoider while receiving no emotional support whatsoever in return. For a long time there were two of us taking care of H and no one taking care of me. For 12 years I thought that someday I would get a turn. Someday he would think about me, care about me, nurture me. What a pie in the sky. <P>As I look at my options, the one I like best is a husband who suddenly wakes up and starts meeting my needs. It's a fantasy and nothing more. I have to deal with the real world, even if he doesn't. I need to sign off right now, but I'll be checking back with y'all. I can definitely relate to what everyone is saying here.

Lonesome Heart - <P>moved out??? oh - how I wish - I've been 'stuck' here so long - I just dream of moving out. <P>My kids are wonderful - but I can barely stand to be in the same room with H. He's so apathetic. You'd think the holidays would make a difference - they didn't. I'd told him I would give him another chance after we discussed these problems last year - if anything - it was worse this year! I decided I wasn't going to fight with him this year - and I haven't. I've been the nicest little wife in the world. I walked through the stores smiling wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, while he strolled along behind me frowning in silence. I baked and cooked and laughed and sang carols while my heart ached to feel him near me singing along, dancing around the kitchen, lending a hand or participating in some part of the day, all while he slept in the other room. I watched the kids play games, put together their toys and laughed with them, all while he slept in the other room - avoiding the 'jolly holiday' we were all having.<P>YES - I realize he's depressed - no SANE person could sleep through the entire day while his family and friends had a blast in the next room - it would be impossible. <P>PLAN A - does NOT work with a conflict avoider. They don't HAVE a CLUE - don't want one - and aren't EVER going to GET one! <P>I don't know if anyone else out there has ever succeeded in a marriage to a conflict avoider - if they have - my HAT is OFF to them! I admire their personal strength and values - not sure I can do this. I'm more certain tonight that I want out of this relationship than I have EVER been.

seekingjoy,<BR>Well, for one thing, I don't have kids. Moving out with kids in tow takes on an entirely different dimension compared to what I'm doing. Today is day 7 of separation and day 6 of no smoking. I feel very fudgy about the future. I need to set goals, keep a journal, and I still feel trapped in some kind of mental quicksand. I guess that's the result of my self esteem and sense of self worth being eroded into dust. <P>I'm so glad I found this thread. I was getting very frustrated with the plan a plan b stuff. Plan A perpetuates a dysfunctional marriage. My separation is not a plan B at all. I'm trying to piece myself back together and give my H a wakeup call. My view: he's not meeting his share of financial obligations and responsibilities. His view: I'm obsessed with money, irresponsibile with it, and it's all my fault that we're in financial trouble. In the process he ridicules / diminishes / dismisses any idea I have. Plus he was not honest with me. <P>I stopped by the house tonight to see my H. He wouldn't even say hello. I gave him a present (he wasn't interested; didn't have anything for me), checked the mail and started to leave. His biggest complaint about me is that I henpeck him. So I'm tiptoeing through a verbal minefield, certain to commit some offense anytime I open my mouth. Over the last three months, I've learned to hold my tongue more than I ever thought possible. He offered me some coffee, and I accepted. We sat down to watch the news. During the commercial I went upstairs to get more clothes. He decided to talk a little.<P>He's shutting himself off from our friends. He says he can't face anyone who knows about our separation. I asked if he's talked to anyone. He said no. That was a lie. He called an out of town friend last week that I also talk to. Instead, I asked if that's how he felt about me. <P>He said he loves me. I said those are just words. Actions over the last week don't tell me the same thing. All the things he started bringing up revolved around him. Then he started rattling off the things he thinks I want. I told him he can't know what I want without discussing it with me. I can't discuss things with him unless he listens. He claims to listen to me, and then picked an example of an idea of mine he "listened" to. The example was a typical scenario. I have an idea. He responds with why it won't work, usually before I finish the thought. <P>Calm cool collected me flew out the window. I took my thumb and started grinding it into the arm of the chair and some of my thoughts started spewing out. I yelled at him, saying "how do you think it makes me feel when you take every single idea I ever have and grind it into a pulp with reasons why it won't work??? Not one single idea I ever have meets a positive response from you. I've been celibate for 7 years and I don't even know why!! How do you supposed THAT makes me feel? I moved out because my heart and my soul are BROKEN!! You're my husband and you're supposed to care about me. There's only one person here you care about and that person is YOU!!"<P>LB's left, right, up and down. But I'll tell you what, I think I found a tiny piece of his heart that isn't a piece of stone. He got on his knees and apologized. Then I left. He has a long way to go just to get back to ground zero. <P>I still love him, but boy howdy I can tell you I'm not spending the rest of my life with this dude unless he pulls a 180 on several fronts. <P>seekingjoy, I can't see your post anymore, but I think you wished for a marriage to survive the problems that a conflict avoider presents. I have to agree with previous posts on this thread that the typical Plan A Plan B approaches just don't work on H's like ours. I'm on a fast track of trying anything I can think of. I'll keep posting either here or in emotional needs.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seekingjoy:<BR><B>YES - I realize he's depressed - no SANE person could sleep through the entire day while his family and friends had a blast in the next room - it would be impossible. <P>PLAN A - does NOT work with a conflict avoider. They don't HAVE a CLUE - don't want one - and aren't EVER going to GET one! <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not sure we should be talking about Plan A not working on conflict avoiders ... I would amend that to say "depressed persons". A conflict avoider without a depression overlay may actually work with you--add depression, and I think you're on the money that Plan A won't work.<P>What about friends and family intervening and putting him into some inpatient therapy?<P><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited December 26, 2000).]

Sisyphus is right.<P>My STBX has always had self-esteem problems and is slow. She's not stupid, but slow. She's slow to get things done and slow to understand things. She's been treated for depression, but she's stopped. She's also a conflict avoider. We all have her own weaknesses. Since I'm fairly smart (I work at it), she feels even worse (unworthy). My STBX is in the fog. She has to have the OM, even though he cheated on her. There is absolutely no getting through to her and she wants to blame me for everything. She's turning into a real basket case, but there is absolutely nothing I can do.<P>Now, Plan A may not work at winning back your spouse with these types of people, but what it does do is expend all of your love for them. I say love, but what I now think I mean is the willingness to be around them. I will always love my wife, but I don't want to be around her. I'm taking care of my daughter and myself and moving on.<P>I'm doing plan C (Though Love) and plan D (Divorce) now. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by father of 1, husband of 0 (edited December 27, 2000).]

F1H0,<P>I was in the same situation, same type of personality. It is very difficult, and you may have found your solution.<P>just be careful NOT to find the same kind of person attractive again, and then don't go overboard on a totally opposite person.<P>tom<BR>

WhenIfindthetime<P>Strangely enough, everything else in my life (including my divorce) is falling into place. I'm not religious, but I believe I have strong morals. I've done everything I could to save my marriage. My STBX is a supposed Christian (she recently put her old Baptism certificate in my face to prove it), but rationalizes that adultery and lying don't count. If "God has a plan", then the way things look to me now, I just need to keep on doing what I'm doing and the right person will be there. <P>I'm not going to look for a "damsel in distress" this time (not that I was looking for one to begin with). My STBX never came out of her distress. While visiting my relatives, my Uncle and Aunt, married for 35 years, talked about being best friends. I'm simply going to do what makes me happy and the right person will be there; someone to be my best friend. I don't even need to look. I just need to be active in activites. <p>[This message has been edited by father of 1, husband of 0 (edited December 27, 2000).]