[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>Mike, is there a subjective reason why you are over here on the D/D boards?</B><P><Mike scoots to dictionary to look up "subjective reason"><P>Uh.....No.<P><B>not a harbinger is it?</B><P><Mike scoots back to dictionary to look up "harbinger"><P>Uh, no, I hope not. Actually everything is pretty good with the ol' withdrawn wife. <P>I'm just over here chatting with my old pal AGG. Of course, given that my three biggest stock holdings are LU, T, and Palm, I may be looking for a rich widow next week <P>Mike<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B>It's been six months for me, and I AM ready to try something else. If she will be willing to separate instead of divorcing, that'd fine with me. But I don't think that'll be an option that she'll consider.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Another two cents from me: You don't need her to consent to separation ahead of time. If that's an option you don't think she'll consider, scram out of the house as quickly as you can ("I really love you, but I can't take it here right now, I need to get away" is a sentiment she'll have little trouble identifying with), but stay as friendly as you can. This may relieve the pressure driving her to file for divorce. Thus *you* make the decision for a separation. If she then says she's going to file, tell her you can't make the decision for her, but that it's a big step and she might want to try the smaller adjustment first and see how it fits. If things aren't changing in a reasonable time and you want to play "double or nothing", you do the filing without telling her ahead of time. <P>I wish I had been strong enough to move out of the marital home. What I convinced myself was steadfastness on my part was also quite a bit of inertia, fear and unwillingness to do something both bothersome and expensive. <P>In the end, XW had all the negative things in her mind about me (whether real or unreal, already changed or ongoing), plus a self-imposed need to follow through on her declared intention, with little she could see justifying *not* following through. <P>If you move out, she can always say she couldn't stand to be without you as a reason to *stop* the divorce process or never start it. If you stay, she *has to get away*--there's no countervailing new pressure or justification for stopping.

AGG,<P>"Another two cents from me:" was written to you in a prior post........keep that in mind when you make life altering decisions for yourself and your family.....2¢ is only 2¢. It's hard for me to read such "ramroding".<P>We all learn from our "own" experiences. Unique and yet many times similar. There are some wonderful people responding to your question, take what you need and throw out the rest.<P>Ragamuffin<P>WIFTT....."harbinger"?!?!?....I had to grab "Webster" on this too.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragamuffin:<BR><B>"Another two cents from me:" was written to you in a prior post........keep that in mind when you make life altering decisions for yourself and your family.....2¢ is only 2¢. It's hard for me to read such "ramroding".</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My new two cents was at least in part a capitulation to AGG's strongly expressed feelings in response to all the posts. I only suggested that he might be able to get to a middle ground that he felt was inaccessible, not that such was an ideal (the ideal is that STBXW comes to her senses and calls the whole thing off, but I don't see that happening, no matter what). <P>Some here want him to stick like glue until the end, regardless. Others favor a clean break as I originally did. AGG has become clear that he wants a separation (well, not wants, but it would be acceptable, especially if the alternative is immediate divorce), but doesn't think he'll get her to forbear to file. <P>I'm suggesting that while he may not be able to get her to *say* that she'll hold off, his moving out might achieve it as a practical result.<P>Only he can't beg her not to file. He needs for any suggestion that she delay to come cloaked in a veil of practicality or patience, rather than suggesting that to hold off would be an expression recommitment to the marriage, which she will be unwilling to give. <P>The only "ramrodding" I suggested was to file first. And that would come only if the separation were carried out, resulted in a stalemate, and he felt exhausted. Remember, she wants him gone, and if he doesn't go, he's pretty much imposing himself on her, a major lovebuster. That's ramrodding.<P>I know. I've been there. I've hung on like a barnacle; and I couldn't recognize at the time that I was just putting the tattered fabric of our relationship right in the shredder. When they really want you out and you know it, get out because you're both just going to continue distressing one another until the situation becomes both intolerable and irreversible.<P>While he's out, do you suppose he'll be ignoring her? He sure will be if it goes to the bitter end. By the time she starts trying to talk to him again he'll be so depressed that he won't want to talk to her; even if after a while she might start desperately trying to reconnect. Having formed a hopeless attitude to the marriage long before, her efforts at reconnection will be brief, and will run out of steam long before he begins to emerge from his funk. <P>But if he moves out now, of his own accord and with a plan in mind, he may avoid that stage. He may actually "be friends" with her ... become her friend again, regain her admiration and respect, and get back together. He can make sure every interaction is a good one ... that she doesn't see the side of him she doesn't like (meanwhile, he's working on eliminating it). He seems exhausted now ... says no more Plan A. But we don't know whether his Plan A was good and solid, or missed some essential element. Maybe that element will become clear with some perspective and distance.<P>Without the "pressure" (and that's what STBXW would probably call it--"pressure" to carry on the charade of a marriage), it may be that they can find each other again. At this point, AGG seems to have identified that as a possibility, and I'd like to give him some encouragement that it *could* be done even though he can't see a way to do it right now. Go on and make the change and see what possibilities open.<P>______________________________<BR>As an aside, my ex returned to the states from europe and moved as close as possible to someplace I *had* to be on a more-or-less daily basis. She has made some efforts to be friendly, but now I'm in a new relationship ... perhaps it was way too soon, because this is my second one, the first one got badly hurt by me. I wouldn't give this new one up for the world, but I still feel sadness over the loss of the marriage, and guilt that at a time when there might have been some possibility of putting it back together, I'm out of the picture. Plus a little fear over what might happen if she pushed for a reconciliation even now, and again, more guilt for not doing the same myself (thus guilt both over my situation, and guilt over my inaction).<BR>________________________________<P>Back to the action:<P>If you don't think you can do something, you may not try. I'm suggesting he try, even if it has a low probability of success, since his postings identify it as the route that has the *best* possibility of success.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited December 22, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragamuffin:<BR><B>"Another two cents from me:" was written to you in a prior post........keep that in mind when you make life altering decisions for yourself and your family.....2¢ is only 2¢. It's hard for me to read such "ramroding".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>My new two cents was at least in part a capitulation to AGG's strongly expressed feelings in response to all the posts. I only suggested that he might be able to get to a middle ground that he felt was inaccessible, not that such was an ideal (the ideal is that STBXW comes to her senses and calls the whole thing off, but I don't see that happening, no matter what). <BR>Some here want him to stick like glue until the end, regardless. Others favor a clean break as I originally did. AGG has become clear that he wants a separation (well, not wants, but it would be acceptable, especially if the alternative is immediate divorce), but doesn't think he'll get her to forbear to file. <P>I'm suggesting that while he may not be able to get her to *say* that she'll hold off, his moving out might achieve it as a practical result.<P>Only he can't beg her not to file. He needs for any suggestion that she delay to come cloaked in a veil of practicality or patience, rather than suggesting that to hold off would be an expression of recommitment to the marriage (or, more accurately, lack of commitment to ending it), which she will be unwilling to give. <P>The only "ramrodding" I suggested was to file first. And that would come only if the separation were carried out, resulted in a stalemate, and he felt exhausted. Remember, she wants him gone, and if he doesn't go, he's pretty much imposing himself on her, a major lovebuster. That's ramrodding.<P>I know. I've been there. I've hung on like a barnacle; and I couldn't recognize at the time that I was just putting the tattered fabric of our relationship right in the shredder. When they really want you out and you know it, get out because you're both just going to continue distressing one another until the situation becomes both intolerable and irreversible.<P>While he's out, do you suppose he'll be ignoring her? He sure will be if it goes to the bitter end. By the time she starts trying to talk to him again he'll be so depressed that he won't want to talk to her; even if after a while she might start desperately trying to reconnect. Having formed a hopeless attitude to the marriage long before, her efforts at reconnection will be brief, and will run out of steam long before he begins to emerge from his funk. <P>But if he moves out now, of his own accord and with a plan in mind, he may avoid that stage. He may actually "be friends" with her ... become her friend again, regain her admiration and respect, and get back together. He can make sure every interaction is a good one ... that she doesn't see the side of him she doesn't like (meanwhile, he's working on eliminating it). He seems exhausted now ... says no more Plan A. But we don't know whether his Plan A was good and solid, or missed some essential element. Maybe that element will become clear with some perspective and distance.<P>Without the "pressure" (and that's what STBXW would probably call it--"pressure" to carry on the charade of a marriage), it may be that they can find each other again. At this point, AGG seems to have identified that as a possibility, and I'd like to give him some encouragement that it *could* be done even though he can't see a way to do it right now. Go on and make the change and see what possibilities open.<P>______________________________<BR>As an aside, my ex returned to the states from europe and moved as close as possible to someplace I *had* to be on a more-or-less daily basis. She has made some efforts to be friendly, but now I'm in a new relationship ... perhaps it was way too soon, because this is my second one, the first one got badly hurt by me. I wouldn't give this new one up for the world, but I still feel sadness over the loss of the marriage, and guilt that at a time when there might have been some possibility of putting it back together, I'm out of the picture. Plus a little fear over what might happen if she pushed for a reconciliation even now, and again, more guilt for not doing the same myself (thus guilt both over my situation, and guilt over my inaction).<BR>________________________________<P>Back to the action:<P>If you don't think you can do something, you may not try. I'm suggesting he try, even if it has a low probability of success, since his postings identify it as the route that has the *best* possibility of success.<BR>

Sisyphus,<P>I appreciate your thoughts. I think in many ways you are absolutely right; my W is most definitely unhappy with us being in the same house, which in a way has probably been pushing us further and further apart during our six month in-home separation.<P>Unfortunately, unlike your situation, ours involves two tiny kids, who not only mean the world to me, but for whom I've been the primary caregiver for the last couple of years (given my W's long hours at work). So first, I don't want to just leave them. Second, and much more importantly, my leaving would significantly jeopardize my chances for custody, which is unacceptable to me.<P>In a way, I look at our next step (her moving to her own place) as more or less what you've suggested. We'll get some distance between us, and see if it helps her get over the many issues that she needs to deal with (but that's a whole other story).<P>Thanks again!<P>AGG

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> [QUOTE]Without the "pressure" (and that's what STBXW would probably call it--"pressure" to carry on the charade of a marriage), it may be that they can find each other again.</B><P>Well, may be, but that is contrary to what Harley says, which is that proximity helps a Plan A. <P>Sisyphus, I understand what you are saying, and it is the Dobson school of enforcing respect and sort of playing unnatural gamesmanship. And I'm sure it works sometimes, but I don't think as much as acting a devoted spouse does. <P>I'm not telling AGG to grab her around the knees at the door. But in his shoes, I would calmly and respectfully and lovingly take a stance that will do nothing to facilitate a divorce. That can be done in a dignified, strong and principled fashion that may build the same respect that a divorce filing would.<P>If she wants to leave, she can leave, but make her take the actions and don't give her the cover to family and friends that it was a joint amicable decision.<P>If I am to wind up divorced someday, I want to look back and say that I gave it everything, and that I acted and communicated honestly and with integrity, and not that a stratagem that really wasn't in my heart backfired and killed my family.<P>By the way, that advice came from Steve Harley, when my instincts and pride called out for a active show of strength that would shake up my wife. I'm glad I didn't move out or file or do anything rash as a stratagem, because at the point she was at, she would have accepted it....mostly because she would have thought that I had given up. <P>Given that finances are an issue, I think that AGG should propose a continued period of co-habitation on a financial concern for the kids basis, and see if his W's heart changes...<P>Mike<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR>Sisyphus, I understand what you are saying, and it is the Dobson school of enforcing respect and sort of playing unnatural gamesmanship. And I'm sure it works sometimes, but I don't think as much as acting a devoted spouse does. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Let me first admit that if the kids are at home and the husband is the primary caretaker, there are wrinkles in the situation that I've never had to deal with except in the prospective sense ... I may have been headed there, but XW didn't want to go. <P>The strange thing is that since I have a home-based business, one of the things that made my office-working professional XW want to bail was the thought that I would be primary caretaker of the children, then we would break up and I would sue for custody and alimony. It seemed so kooky ... it was to me a looong leap of logic, but perhaps a short one for her.<P>I don't believe you can "enforce" respect. You've either earned it, or you haven't, and if you think you've earned it but don't have it, you either re-examine your position and redouble your efforts or you resign unless you can change the other person's mind through persuasion. <P>Nor do I believe departing is unnatural gamesmanship: if you're clinging to someone who doesn't respect you, from their point of view you're a pest or a parasite, and that isn't healthy to a relationship. If you withdraw, one or both of you will have room to change attitudes.<P>If I had to dissect this situation (and it developed in my city with a prominent woman lawyer and her stay-at-home dad architect husband, who in fact went for divorce and big alimony, child support, etc.), I would say the woman feels guilt for not being the one at home with the kids. She also feels anger for being "forced" to be the primary breadwinner. Nevermind that the "modern" view is that this can be perfectly appropriate, and nevermind who made which choices (and why) ... "Leave it to Beaver" represents an ideal, intact nuclear family despite years of literature saying that our lives can be ordered otherwise and harping on the supposed emptiness of a wife who lives like that, yada yada yada.<P>So let's just say her life feels "wrong" ... whose job is it to make her life feel "right"? ... why it's AGG's job [that's irony--it's really the POJA's job]. Which he hasn't been doing. What has been wrong (if anything--remember, it could be all her delusion--but that's hardly likely)? I don't know, I haven't been there ... all this is conjecture based on what the motivations of hypothetical people in this hypothetical situation could be expected to be. We won't know until he tells us more. <P>It may be that we're back to the "Me Tarzan ... You Jane" Promisekeepers-type ideas if this marriage is to be saved. It may be something AGG can't do, and STBXW thus may not be able to see him in a different light right now. If anyone else around here has been stuck in this particular sand trap, how 'bout piping up now with some ideas?<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited December 22, 2000).]

<B>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR>"""If I had to dissect this situation (and it developed in my city with a prominent woman lawyer and her stay-at-home dad architect husband, who in fact went for divorce and big alimony, child support, etc.), I would say the woman feels guilt for not being the one at home with the kids. She also feels anger for being "forced" to be the primary breadwinner.</B><P>I think this is an inaccurate description of the situation, based on past conversations with AGG.