GDP said,<BR>"Well, what is the "it" that didn't work out? A marriage doesn't just die, and a divorce doesn't just happen. People make choices to build up or tear down. Sometimes the choice to leave is a proactive choice (as in cases of abuse). Sometimes -usually, I suspect - it is merely destructive all around."<P>I completely agree with GDP. When I hear people talking about divorce (especially the ones who chose divorce) they tend to believe that their choice was somehow unavoidable or for the best. It is not "bitter" of me to believe that there are very few marriages that warrant a divorce. <P>Sue,<BR>You have mentioned more than once that both you and your ex-husband are sad about what happened. So, what is keeping you from reconciling your family? My guess is that you are comfortable in your new relationship and the fear of trusting your ex is too high. You have made a CHOICE not to reconcile your family for whatever reason. True, the fact that you are divorced now is in the past as well as mistakes you made in the past. However, your ex is not recommitted to someone else and neither are you. Your life is not over, therefore, as long as you both live you still have the opportunity to reconcile.<P>If both of you understand that mistakes were made by both, then what is holding you back? The reason why I'm so hard on you is because I believe that you, like my ex husband, beleive that it is easier to start with someone new rather than face their fear.<P>My ex is not remarried. Heck, I'm not even dating. The only reason he has not wanted to reconcile (IMO) is because I know him too well. He knows that as long as he is with me, he will have a harder time glossing over his faults. With someone new, he can tell his story over again and he can pretend that our divorce was my fault.<P>You can call it moving on. That is ok. It is your life. However, you make decisions everyday that affect you and your children. I understand that you would have a very hard time trusting him. Maybe I don't know the whole story, but it seemed to me from one of your other posts that your ex is remorseful and regrets his part in things. <P>Sooo, I'll answer the question posed in this thread...<P>What I see is a man who is afraid to look at his failures, and in his desire to "move on" he is hoping that his fears and faults will disappear. <P>I see a man who believes that finding someone new will make him happy.<P>I see a person who believes that love is about feelings and not actions.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 04, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>Sue,<BR>You have mentioned more than once that both you and your ex-husband are sad about what happened. So, what is keeping you from reconciling your family? My guess is that you are comfortable in your new relationship and the fear of trusting your ex is too high. You have made a CHOICE not to reconcile your family for whatever reason. True, the fact that you are divorced now is in the past as well as mistakes you made in the past. However, your ex is not recommitted to someone else and neither are you. Your life is not over, therefore, as long as you both live you still have the opportunity to reconcile.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>You could have been speaking to me. I believe I have come back on these boards because my XW's return to town (and as much as possible to her old life) unsettled me. I don't know her mind now, but I do know that she made it clear to me at one point that she was hurting too, and we hugged. It may be that what blocks our reconnection is my new relationship. It is a relationship that did not begin, of course, until my marriage was over. But although in a vacuum I would want it to be a lifelong marriage, I have this other unfinished business. When my XW divorced me, she held open that I might have another chance if I "got my sh*t together" ... meaning she wanted more achievement out of me professionally. I was home based, making essentially as much as her, and doing all the heavy housework too (she couldn't due to arthritis). I was depressed, alone most of the day, etc. She was not there for me sexually (sometimes her brother was staying in the next room, other times she had pain that prevented it, still other times she just didn't want *me*). If you want the details of how this all started, they're right here: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000164.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000164.html</A> <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If both of you understand that mistakes were made by both, then what is holding you back? The reason why I'm so hard on you is because I believe that you, like my ex husband, beleive that it is easier to start with someone new rather than face their fear.<P>My ex is not remarried. Heck, I'm not even dating. The only reason he has not wanted to reconcile (IMO) is because I know him too well. He knows that as long as he is with me, he will have a harder time glossing over his faults. With someone new, he can tell his story over again and he can pretend that our divorce was my fault.<P>You can call it moving on. That is ok. It is your life.<P>Sooo, I'll answer the question posed in this thread...<P>What I see is a man who is afraid to look at his failures, and in his desire to "move on" he is hoping that his fears and faults will disappear. <P>I see a man who believes that finding someone new will make him happy.<P>I see a person who believes that love is about feelings and not actions.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sometimes without feeling any warmth from your significant other, it's hard to take action.<P>I don't really want to move on. I am getting help for my problems, and coming out of them. I did form a new relationship, however. I have been alone for long periods in the past and I don't like it (the new person is great--just what I need in very many ways). I was an only child and I'm not by nature a social butterfly. I live in a town where there are few people with backgrounds in common with me, and I'm not in a good position to move right now (ironically, if my marriage hadn't been breaking up, I could have moved; and now if I really cranked on it I could [witching date is sort of early March--May 1 is the real date, it's hard to explain, but it would be expensive for me to arrange this and still uphold duties to clients at any other time of the year], but since new GF is based here, and XW is here, what's the point?). <P>XW originally wanted to move out of this town to a town more like our hometowns--ironically, she does have a lot in common with the backgrounds of the people here ... it's just that her own hispanic background is sometimes a bit uncomfortable for her, having grown up in a town where that was a vanishingly small minority. There are towns near here with a much more comfortable balance for both of us, and we at one time were looking into going (but my timing constraints bothered her at a moment when her career was very uncertain, and she broke with me just about then--took several months for me to get it through my skull that what I thought was a temporary anger was actually the cord snapping).<P>I think I've been pretty open about my faults, and what I'm trying to do in order to correct them. But I don't have much tangible evidence to show the XW, and I'm afraid of rejection if I attempt to reconnect with her. As well as angry still. Also, my psychiatrist developed a negative opinion of her over a couple of encounters, and thinks I should steer clear.<P>I would accept whatever pain is coming to me. What I would not do is give up my business and thrust myself back into an uncertain job market (as she would want) when the things *she* put me through had a lot to do with retarding the growth of my business, and even so its growth remains sufficient, especially if I am able to run it in peace (and I don't call the time with her brother day trading in the next room, nor our time together but at odds, nor the last six months away from her "peace"--I call the latter agonizing withdrawal). <P>I have a lot of advice for other people, and I hope some of it is even good (perhaps not genius, but at least I'm not too close to the situation). But I am just so friggin' lost as to how to proceed now, especially realizing that my XW may still be hurting (or not) and trying to reconnect (or not), and knowing that if I do try I will hurt my new GF. I have the unfinished business I *must* clear up with the XW, and interaction is *necessary*. But I have no sense of how to move forward with any sense of serenity.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 04, 2001).]

Sys,<BR>Hope you don't mind me abbreviating your name. I always have to look back and see where all the 'p's and 'y's go. Maybe you have another abbreviation you like better.<P>I don't want anyone to get the impression that reconciliation is the ONLY right path. I do think that it is the ideal path, but all of us can only handle so much. What I DO want people to consider is that life is about choices. There are very few things are are impossible, IMO, as long as both people want to keep trying. What is hard for people to admit is that they don't want to keep trying. They want to beleive their commitment was unwavering, but the fact that they have stopped trying is, by definition, proof that it is not unwavering. The fact that their commitment is not unwavering is completely forgiveable. However, it is dishonest to say that reconciliation is not possible and that the ONLY choice is to move on. The only honest thing to say is that one or both people are not willing to make the changes to MAKE it possible. Even those conditions change over time. <P>It was my ex's choice to divorce, thereby removing the possibility of us being married right now. It is his continued choice for us to remain apart. I have told him that I am not dating and that I wish to reconcile. The only condition I placed upon our reconciliation is that I intend to finish my PhD and will not move until that is completed. Perhaps if I were willing to quit my school, then he might want to reconcile (even though he has never stated that). In that case, I will have made the CHOICE to place my education over reconciliation. Notice that I have not placed any conditions upon him. He has never expressed a desire to reconcile, so I do not have the opportunity to realign my life with his. Well, I suppose I could, but then I might be considered a stalker <P>He did call me once and said he wanted my new address, but he has never exercised his priviledge to use it. <P>He told me once that he might want to get back together after I graduate. I know he is certainly not holding his breath, and neither am I. I'm celibate now for my sake, not his. I respect that you have put alot of thought into reconciliation. You seem to be aware that your choices are affecting the possibility of reconciliation as much as her choices are. <P>To all,<BR>I'm pretty hard on some betrayed. Actually, if you look at my posts, you'll see I'm hard on anyone (betrayer or betrayed) who makes excuses for their life choices. <P>I'm suspicious of some betrayed who say they have done everything they can do to save their marriages, especially when they are ever so quick to shut the door behind them by quickly finding someone new (either before or after a divorce) or hustling through the divorce paperwork. Mostly because my ex (IMO) did not make an honest attempt to save ours. It was mostly him having me jump through hoops to prove my love for him, which I willingly did in an effort to regain his trust. He did little or no introspection to consider what he did to hurt me. When he did finally admit that he had hurt me a great deal, he didn't have the courage to stick around and clean up the mess he too had made. He still doesn't, unfortunately. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 04, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>I'm suspicious of some betrayed who say they have done everything they can do to save their marriages, especially when they are ever so quick to shut the door behind them by quickly finding someone new (either before or after a divorce) or hustling through the divorce paperwork.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I reached out for a new relationship because I felt so small and unvalidated after my divorce (and that one was a bust--I'm now on my second). And I at least told myself I cooperated on the divorce paperwork only to avoid creating more resentment and anger. I actually seriously considered contesting that the marriage was "irretrievably broken" but my research indicated that from the legal standpoint it was pretty much of a dead-end ... probably wouldn't even get a hearing on that issue ... the mere allegation alone by one spouse being enough to do the trick. So I concentrated on *not* taking a screwing in the dissolution agreement. Succeeded there, at least (even if I can't seem to get it fully carried out).<P>I did not do *everything* I could in order to save my marriage (or perhaps I could not do everything that was needed--I have a hard time with that distinction). I would not sacrifice my own judgment about what career path would or would not work for me. I would not give up my autonomy. Perhaps I couldn't explain myself well enough, perhaps I was actually in the wrong. Whether this was pride, inertia, narrowmindedness, or a correct position is something only time will tell. But *she* couldn't take it, so we parted company.

Maybe I'm one of those persons Looking Ahead referred to when the comment was made that you could tell who was still bitter. I've put a lot of thought into that over the years and I don't think I am. <P>I, personally am dealing with a man who is vervally and emotionally abusive to me in front of our children. And I see him as someone I don't want/need in my life - even though the children need him. A few months ago, during one of his ugly bouts (I think he's got a mental problem, seriously) I told him that I felt his goal in life is to make my life hell - and he agreed. <P>When you have been as vilified as I have been, it's really hard to see much positive about the person who took from you your financial, emotional, and social stability.<P>So, I have to work my buns off to regain it. Have accomplished the emotional stability and feel better about my social status as a divorced woman. Finances, that's a different matter but I'm working on that.<P>I don't think I'm too badly scarred. Don't think I'm too angry. Although I don't know that I'll ever be totally "over" what he did - mostly to the children since he has admitted he thought they might be bandaids.<P>I just have no use for him. He's not nice to me!!!!!!!!!!

Sys,<BR>Ok. As long as you can admit that. What is hard for me to understand is when some betrayed initiate a relationship quickly after a divorce for the same reasons you have mentioned (wanting validation, affection, etc.) yet they have a hard time understanding why their wayward spouse has done the same. <P>I hope your new girlfriend understands that she is "just what you need right now". I think key word there is "right now". One reason why I'm not dating is because I don't want to be used to prop up someone else's self-esteem and I won't use someone else to fix me either. I don't plan on dating again until I'm squarely on my two feet and feel like I have something to offer....not just a sponge sucking the life out of another person because I need healing. Even then, I'm not even sure I'd want to date. There are just too many others out there who would love to suck me dry, and would if I gave them the opportunity. That is what my ex did. I'm sure that when he married me, all he was thinking about is what I could do for him. I seriously doubt he ever questioned himself too deeply about what he was willing to contribute to the relationship or put much thought into what my needs might be. <P>I've got a long ways to go before I can honestly say I'd have much to contribute to an intimate relationship. Oh well. I've got lots of other stuff to keep me busy in the meantime.

TheStudent,<P>We don't always see eye-to-eye here (which is a good thing - it is always good to hear opposing views), but here I do tend to agree with you. So many people do rush out to try and replace what they are missing in their lives once a spouse leaves. And that is fine if that is what they want. But just like you state, if they do start a new relationship before they are past their marriage (before or after divorce) then they need to admit that "no they did not do everything they could to save their marriage". They did what they felt was necessary and prudent. They are not wrong for what they did, but they have to stand behind their actions and not do one thing then say another.<P>My wife is gone, in all sense of the word. There have been no real positive signs to speak of, other than we can now communicate at least as "friends". And I'll be 100% honest, I miss her so much and I miss so much the feeling of being "loved" by a girlfriend/wife/significant-other. But I am not out there "looking" for a new relationship. My faith has been my saving grace (excuse the pun). I have put full trust in God's will - whether it be for my wife to return or for me to find another (or for me to be alone for a while). Sure it is nice to "look" when I go out, but I truly believe that if God believes someone else is better for me out there, she will just "show-up" in my life.<P>I have not given up hope for reconciliation, I have done one better - I put it in God's hands. By doing that I am no longer trying to control the situation - thinking what to say or write to her or do, or any of that garbage. It all ended up being the "wrong" things in her eyes anyway. All I was doing was hurting myself in the process.<P>I relate it to friends and family this way: If my wife had a terminal disease or was sick in some other way, would I just walk away from her? Even if she became dillusional? No. Well in my mind (and in many other's opinion) she is somewhat "sick" - here we call it "the fog", right? So if I believe she has issues to deal with (like a sickness) then shouldn't I still be standing by our marriage? At least until a point where all hope has dwindled like sometime after our divorce?<P>Finally, as Sisyphus stated in his post (no offense meant) he has already been through one relationship. For him or anyone in our situation for that matter, it may have been good/bad/whatever, but what about the other girl/guy that they started dating? Was it fair to them? Maybe this new girl/guy viewed the new relationship with stars in their eyes only to be crushed by the baggage of their new partner. In a sense you can "chalk up" another victim to the first divorce, because you may have not be "ready" for a new relationship....<P>My lawyer calls it his "2 year rule". Not to get involved with anyone exclusive for at least two years after the divorce is final. He said that he just sees too many repeat clients that went from one marriage, right to a new serious relationship that turned into another marriage and then ANOTHER divorce....<P>Mike

Yes Student, both of us have a lot of remorse. But he does NOT want to come back. He has made that very clear. The door was open for him for two years. He chose not to come back. In fact, he moved to another state, so now his kids hardly see him, though he does call. <P>You seem to think that because I want to move on, I was not committed, or didn't want to work hard on my marriage. I can assure you I did.<P> You have no idea the pain involved when there are kids because you don't have any. But just take what you felt and add to it ten fold. And then everytime you look into their eyes you have to think about it. It is a constant reminder. And your personal comments about them divorcing and my lack of commitment is totally uncalled for. <P>My x had/has every opportunity to make things right. He does not want to. I will always look back and wish it could be different. But I have to remain the steady rock in my kids lives, for they don't get it from their father. For me to live in a limbo state, feeling depressed about it does not help them. I did that. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

What i meant by being able to tell who was still bitter is that you can feel it the words when reading. BUT i'm not a professional in that area so...... forgive me if i offend. Sometimes i read these posts and you can feel the love and compassion and other times the anger and resentment.<P>I still treasure my ex but it has taken a while for me to understand that i do not have to feel bad for ending my relationship. Which i do not. I prefer life over marriage and my safety as well as my childs safety was diffently an issue with my ex. I would rather been a divorce statistic than a murdered wife statistic.<P>

<BR>I guess everyone has strong reason's for being here. I can respect it all. <P>I just know that some people don't mix. You can not honestly tell me that everybody you met there is always harmony. Some people's personalities just clash.<P>My ex and i were together for the wrong reasons. We did it for our daughter and quite honestly we both see this now. He felt the obligation to stay and i fooled myself into thinking we could have everything.<P>I forgot along the way that i had changed into something i wasn't. Even in spending time with him afterwards with all his pleas, he can't rise to the person i want in my life and quite frankly i do care for him on an incredibly high level. But i don't blame him for anything life is too short to feel angry with him. I hope that he's happy with what he has chosen. I wish i hadn't of spent time with him though because over the last year i lost more respect for him because of what he put me through and the lies he told. Especially when he came unglued and started hitting me. <BR>This is why i say it's for the best and we don't match.<P>Last time i checked i am not a punching bag.<BR>I deserve to feel safe in my home, i don't want to be nervous and feel i have to defend myself or exit quickly because i'm afraid of what comes next.<P>I expressed this to him.... he laughed and told me he'd never hit me.<P>The jokes on him he already has on several occassions. I guess he meant that day.<P>But angry nnaah....<BR>life's too short to be bitter.<BR>

My x wanted out, I would have stayed in, he didn't give me that option, I was powerless over the situation, so we ended up divorced. It was a quick divorce, I dated someone else in the divorce process shortly thereafter and we both knew all the risks, the relationship is now over, I am now not dating. These were all choices that I made. I could have made other choices, but I didn't. I don't consider myself a bad person for the choices I made. I did what I felt I should do at the time. In some of the posts here, there seems to be hostility towards those who make these choices. I'm not sure why. <P>As to the original question:<P>I see a man who gave up, who was unwilling to work anymore on the marriage and took the easy way out and feels very guilty about his decision but still thinks it is for the "best".<P>I see myself as someone who tried to change his mind, but chose to move on when I believed that there was no chance for us. Was that the right decision? Who knows. But, it is the decision I made and I don't regret it.<P> <p>[This message has been edited by 711 (edited January 04, 2001).]

Sue, Well said!<P>tom

It seems to me that there are some important points that may be getting lost here.<P>First, I don't believe all reconciliations are necessarily a good idea. I suspect that there is a big difference between a relationship in which one partner has always used and/or abused the other, and a relationship which was once good. In the former case, I think it could be argued that there was never really a marriage relationship in the first place, and thus nothing to restore. (Of course, it may be difficult to look back objectively...)<P>My wife and I had a happy marriage for years, and I too have used the analogy of my wife contracting a disease as a guide to discerning the right course of action for me. (I used Alzheimer's disease. Is it right to walk away if my wife cannot remember who I am?) When I made my wedding vows they specifically accounted for the potential (indeed the expectation) of change, and it seems to me that this is exactly the kind of situation that those vows were intended for. You don't need the vows to keep you together when everything is going beautifully.<P>A second clarification that may be helpful here involves the belief that it would be easier to start over with someone new rather than go back and clean up the mess. To some extent, I think that that belief is correct! It <I>is</I> easier. Working on a marriage, particularly a broken one, is not easy at all. The fallacy comes in because it is not actually possible to <I>start over</I>. The fact is, marriages don't have problems. People have problems. And they carry those problems with them, whether or not they enter into a new relationship. Working on a broken relationship is a lot harder, but it has the advantage of showing you pretty clearly what you need to work on.<P>One last point I would like to make involves the idea of "doing everything possible" to save a marriage. Remember what a marriage <I>is</I>! It's a partnership. There are things you can do to keep a spouse from leaving, at least for a time, that in the long run won't do you or the marriage any good. In any marriage, it is necessary to make compromises in what you do. But you should never have to compromise <I>who you are</I>.<BR>

The Student and Sue,<P>I do have children - rather a lot of them as a matter of fact. And I see their pain everyday. I saw their anguish when I told them that in 90 days the divorce would be final - even though they knew in advance that would most likely happen, it did not lessen their pain. Limbo would have been ok with me. The children certainly would have preferred it, and I would have preferred a 30 year separation to a divorce. I worry a lot about whether when they grow up, they will think that running is the thing to do if they are feeling unhappy. I worry that about what they have learned from this - for one thing that your financial problems can be alleviated by finding someone richer, and that responsibility for raising or caring about your children can be so easily discarded. I worry about a tendency toward depression being inherited. <P>But perhaps I need not worry about them leaving a spouse, for most of them are adamant about the fact that they will never marry. Shortly after my H left, my son said that he would never marry because he did not want to risk doing to his wife what his father did to me. I worries me that already he seems to feel like people have no control over whether they hurt others. It sounds so much like what his father said - "I can't help my emotions." <P>There is no positives associated with divorce. It produces nothing but destruction, destruction that spreads through time and space.

I agree! There are no positives about divorce!

<BR>First, I don't believe all reconciliations are necessarily a good idea. I suspect that there is a big difference between a relationship in which one partner has always used and/or abused the other, and a relationship which was once good. In the former case, I think it could be argued that there was never really a marriage relationship in the first place, and thus nothing to restore. (Of course, it may be difficult to look back objectively...)<BR>People have problems. And they carry those problems with them, whether or not they enter into a new relationship. Working on a broken relationship is a lot harder, but it has the advantage of showing you pretty clearly what you need to work on.<P>One last point I would like to make involves the idea of "doing everything possible" to save a marriage. Remember what a marriage <I>is</I>! It's a partnership. There are things you can do to keep a spouse from leaving, at least for a time, that in the long run won't do you or the marriage any good. In any marriage, it is necessary to make compromises in what you do. But you should never have to compromise <I>who you are</I>.[/B][/QUOTE]<P><BR>I like how this was stated.<BR>Thank you.<BR>VERY valid points.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>Finally, as Sisyphus stated in his post (no offense meant) he has already been through one relationship. For him or anyone in our situation for that matter, it may have been good/bad/whatever, but what about the other girl/guy that they started dating? Was it fair to them? Maybe this new girl/guy viewed the new relationship with stars in their eyes only to be crushed by the baggage of their new partner. In a sense you can "chalk up" another victim to the first divorce, because you may have not be "ready" for a new relationship....</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I wouldn't call her a victim. She approached the relationship with her own hurts in her heart, and her eyes wide open with respect to what I had just been through. She had her own set of needs that I was able to help her with; and a surprise (like, hey, I'm a shaygitz for the umpteenth time! thanks for not telling me upfront!) or two for me that ultimately caused it not to work out.<P>The two-year rule may be the ideal in the absence of other relationships ... but I also think new relationships can shorten that time considerably by their mere existence. Those relationships, however, should not be with anyone who doesn't have a clear understanding of the risks.<P>If you're operating a nuclear power plant, you go by the book; but people are different, and have free will (unlike radioactive materials). It could be two years before the level of relationship radioactivity is safe, it could be two days. I would say the rejected spouse should start meeting new people right away; but exercise great caution before jumping in too deep. And be sure what's happening with the rejecting spouse before letting things progress too far on the new front. If you think they're a chance of them coming out of the fog, don't start up your own fog machine just yet.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>I hope your new girlfriend understands that she is "just what you need right now". I think key word there is "right now". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>Caught ya! I never said "right now". I said "in very many ways". This one was much better-considered. And she too is aware of the risks. While she has no desire to lose me to the XW, she and I have discussed at length that 11 years of history and commitment *could* trump what we have built, if my XW were to come back into the picture. People face obstacles and risks all the time, and outcomes are never certain. She and I consider it a risk worth taking. <P>There are people who marry and divorce with hardly more thought than we give to choice of hotels; others would never divorce, or if forced to divorce, would never question what they should do with the rest of their lives. All of us fall somewhere in-between. We're answering each others' questions, and questioning each others' answers. <P>I have concluded that in order to avoid giving and receiving pain in this life, one must be alone on whatever island Tom Hanks found himself on in "Castaway". Otherwise, it's a question of making periodic moral choices relative to the giving and receiving of pain. I'm doing the best I can with it, as are all of you.

Sue,<BR>Please forgive me. I was under the impression from another one of your posts that your ex was maybe interested in a reconciliation. In one of my past posts, I also mentioned that my ex seemed sad about what happened, but was unwilling to do anything about it. That is my gripe. Not at you, but in general. If two people are so sad about what happened, then you'd think they would do something to change that. As few as about 4 months ago, I sent my ex an e-mail telling him I still loved him, and just a few words telling him what I was doing these days. He never responded, so I haven't written him anything else. <P>Your statement that I don't know what kids go through after a divorce because I don't have any is only partly correct. I witness the disordered lives of adults whose parents divorced. I witness the pain my niece (now seven years old) is going through. I witness the pain of my friend's teenage son whose father didn't even CALL him on Christmas this year. To say that I'm immune to their suffering simply because they are not mine is not fair. Granted, the pain you must be experiencing is tremendous because these children are your own.<P>711,<BR>You are correct that I express a certain level of hostility towards people who date during or immediately after a divorce. My ex took off his ring the day after my confession and dated pretty much non-stop during our so-called reconciliation. All the while, he was going off about how committed he is, how loyal he is, how he's a monogamist. blah, blah. When I see people's actions not falling in line with their words, yes, I do experience some animosity...but it is only my anger at my ex's two-faced behavior. <P>People can make any choice they want to, but at least be honest about it. <P>Sys, <BR>Ok, guess ya did catch me. I agree that life is a balance. You have been honest about not putting everything you had into your marriage. I trust that you are honest with your girlfriends that they are probably temporary as well. As long as both people know what they are getting into, then it is ok. <P>I met a guy who might have a little bit in common with you. He also doesn't (really) believe that marriage is for life and doesn't believe that divorce is all that bad. That is fine. We tried to be friends for awhile, but it didn't work. When it came right down to it, I wouldn't give him permission to use me anymore. One of the last times I talked to him, he wanted me to do (yet) another favor for him stating "I need to use you again". I just laughed. He said "What?!" I just laughed somemore and said "Oh, well, at least you are being honest. Sorry, can't do it. You'll have to call someone else."<P>That seemed to be his view of relationships. More-or-less a mutually parasitic involvement. I use you, you use me, and as long as both people agree to being "used" for whatever purposes the other person wants them for, then its ok. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>As few as about 4 months ago, I sent my ex an e-mail telling him I still loved him, and just a few words telling him what I was doing these days. He never responded, so I haven't written him anything else.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have not seen any such writing from my XW, though she will tell me on the phone or in person if I let her. If I am distant from her, it isn't because I would not want to reapproach her. It is because of the pain I feel and the fear of rejection (I am not yet the person she would want back, and I don't know if I could continue that journey if I were with her). It is so painful to communicate with her and not be *with* her. My aloofness is *not* a sign that I have completely given her up in my heart, decided she is unworthy, poisonous, or evil. It is a protective mechanism shielding my own weakness and lack of emotional skill. I could easily break down at any moment in her presence (and have done so). <P>I can't tell you how to handle your X. What I can tell you is that you don't know what is going on in another person's mind when they fail to respond to you. What you do from now on is your call, of course.

sys,<BR>I did consider sending him a christmas card. Over Christmas, I was very near his parent's house and could have very easily dropped by. He has always spent his Christmas's there and it would be virtually guaranteed that he would be there. However, I wouldn't have done so without warning him in advance.<P>I do understand that I have no idea what my ex is experiencing. Based on his behavior while I (should I say we?) were trying to reconcile, it is my impression that he has closed the door, for whatever reason. <P>I totally agree with GDP. A second clarification that may be helpful here involves the belief that it would be easier to start over with someone new rather than go back and clean up the mess. To some extent, I think that that belief is correct! It is easier. Working on a marriage, particularly a broken one, is not easy at all. The fallacy comes in because it is not actually possible to start over. The fact is, marriages don't have problems. People have problems. And they carry those problems with them, whether or not they enter into a new relationship. Working on a broken relationship is a lot harder, but it has the advantage of showing you pretty clearly what you need to work on."<P>And there's the kicker. Alot of people don't really want to know what they need to work on. Finding someone new means they can put off facing that part of themselves. They can hide what they want to hide and show what they want to show. Believe me. I understand that much myself. How many posts have I generated about how much to tell or not tell about my marriage and about my personal failings?