The Student:<P>Thanks for your explanation regarding your hostility towards people who date early. I think I am very honest person. Many people have told me that I am too honest for my own good. I am very direct and do not play games. So I'm just curious if I have said something that you have found conflicts with my actions? I will say to my grave with complete honesty, that I would have stayed in my marriage forever. I was miserable and hated my relationship with my x, but I would have stayed married and I would have kept trying and going to counseling to see if we could turn things around. But, he wouldn't. He left. He has never once indicated any desire to come back. So, I gave up. I gave up. I didn't want to fight a losing battle. I was relieved that it was finally over but I was also sad that it was over. That is possible. I cried and cried that we failed at our marriage and our children would suffer because of it. But, I knew he wouldn't try again so I said ok. Let's divorce. I am not happy about it. I hate divorce. I hate the loss of my dream. But, I knew there was no hope so I moved on. You know my story.<P>I guess I just need to say again for the record, that I do not think I am some wonderful person that made all these sacrifices and my x still left me. I am well aware of my role in the break up of my marriage. I also know my x well enough to know that when he said it was over, it was over. And, I know when I need to get over that and move on. But even though there was a part of me that was relieved to finally be out of this terrible marriage, there was another part of me that was devastated by the loss of the marriage and the dream of a life for my kids like I had with my parents. You can hate your marriage but still grieve when it is over. You can mourn a marriage even if you hated it. There were times that I hated my x husband. But, I still loved him too. I guess what I am trying to say, is that you cannot just look at people's actions and know what is really in their heart. People are just not that easy to read. <p>[This message has been edited by 711 (edited January 06, 2001).]

TS,<P>There is a big difference between loving someone and being "in love" with them. Love is different to everyone. Many times we start out "in love" and honestly, after the kids come, the romance is gone and the love changes.<P>I loved my husband. I also did what I did for the children, which wasn't the best choice, but I made the best of it.<P>I started feeling a different kind of love for him that last year. Coincidently was the same time he started the affair. In hindsight things always make more sense.<P>Anyone who has had a child will tell you that there is a certain bond that you will share with the mother/father of your child, regardless for the rest of your life. <P>I don't appreciate you psycho analyzing every thing I post and then telling me about it in some post that is totally unrelated. I also don't appreciate you thinking you know me well enough to tell me I never loved my ex and all the other negative things you say. I don't think that I whine, I barely post here anymore.<P>However, everyone has their right to their opinion as does yourself, but I will say that earlier in this thread, or one of the others of rtn2's, I can't keep them straight, someone pointed out that its obvious to see who's bitter and who's not.<P>I believe you get what you put out in this world, and if you chose to be negative and throw insults around all the time then I don't see how you are going to heal. I don't follow your posts enough to judge whether or not you loved either of your husbands. <P>I am not here for a soap opera or to waste any more time arguing. I post to my old friends who have been here since I came, and I try to post something to some of the new people who come. <P>I won't appologize for deciding to stop trying to save my marriage, and it has nothing to do with love and everything to do with being pushed enough and putting a stop to it. I felt like I was becoming weak, needy and had no self esteem on Plan A and thats what killed it for me.<P>Dana<BR>

the <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>If you had custody, there would be no itchild support, so saying that you had to give up custody because you had to pay so much child support does not make much sense.<P>And, btw, my H made almost 100 thousand dollars in 1999. In the middle of this year he got laid off. The court awarded child support based only on his unemployment income, which combined with my income brings the six children and me just about to the poverty level. My lawyer said that the courts will not make the non-custodial parent pay more than he can reasonably comfortably afford, even if it means the children starve. And it makes no difference when the non-custodial parent gets to share expenses with someone who is rich enough that he gets to have a standard of living far better than what we ever had. <P>In every state, visitation and child support are not connected. She can not withhold visitation if you do not pay, and you can not refuse to pay if she withholds child support. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>it makes pefect sense,i'm a physician who can not get laid off.my support and alimony payments were way more than what your h made while he was working and i paid all of the taxes and most other expenses.my hours were long before the separation so they had to remain long to meet the payments.you must not live in pa because the court has no concern about who is or is not comfortable.i have seen this happen to both men and women.my lawyer showed the court that with those payments and the other expenses,it would exceed my income,they could have cared less.in pa the penalty for nonsupport is prison,the penalty for contempt[refusing visitation]is a slap on the wrist.one last note,i have talked to many women who have been handed this bitter pill and there seems to be no rhyme or reason,regardless of the gender or income.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eviscerated:<BR><B>My lawyer showed the court that with those payments and the other expenses,it would exceed my income,they could have cared less. ...There seems to be no rhyme or reason,regardless of the gender or income.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know, I had had very little problem with anger at my wife. She is in the fog and is hurting herself more than she is hurting me.<P>I haven't even had much of a problem with anger at my in-laws. Sure, they should have been able to tell that my wife was behaving in an uncharacteristic and self-destructive manner, but they have a family history of denial and enabling and I can understand how in their confusion they would fall back on old habits.<P>What I <I>do</I> get angry and bitter about is the legal system. The government of this great country has taken on the role of bandits, without even a pretense of justice, without even bothering to review the facts. The lawyers I can understand, they're at least getting paid to rape and pillage. But what's the excuse of the magistrates and judges? <I>They</I> don't benefit from the arbitrary redistribution of income they impose.<P>And I'm not even talking about situations in which the facts are in dispute!<P>So what is it? Do they decide to perpetrate some gross injustice just because they <I>can</I> and it gives them a greater feeling of power than if they actually tried to be just or fair? Or is it simply that they can't be bothered to take the time to skim the briefs that you paid your lawyer hundreds of dollars to prepare, or even to pay attention when something is said in court?<P>My theory is that modern-day judicial philosophy is based purely on Procrustes. They'll somehow make you fit their tidy little formulae, no matter how badly they wrest justice, or how badly they destroy lives in the process. And don't expect them to waste any time looking for <I>best</I> fit. After all, there's another case waiting behind yours.<P>Justice is blind all right. But forget those old-fashioned scales. Nowadays she drives a steamroller, and she isn't very particular about where it goes.<BR>

My ex recently wrote me a letter saying that he questions our chemistry and whether or not he really ever truly connected with me. It showed me that hindsight and a new relationship can distort the past. We connected; we were happy; we were terrific. At first. He went on to say that he is now with someone who gives him the peace that he has always longed for. This example illustrates two points: 1) that one can easily rationalize away the past in order to be comfortable with the present 2) it is very easy to seek peace outside onself. It may appear that I agree with the Student here. Yes, it is easy to sit back and say "Whew! I'm glad that's over" when it is actually over. But how productive is it to sit around and say over and over again "Damn, I am miserable." Also, think about this: why is does it seem impossible for someone to claim a deep and profound love for someone and still say they had a deep and profound love for someone else? I feel that it takes a great amount of courage to admit that you loved someone with all your soul but you screwed it up. Don't deny the love just to be justify or validate a new one. Secondly, the people that are saying that they are "happy" with their divorces are not happy with the pain or the act itself. They are choosing to shape their lives and attitudes based on the circumstances. And yes, my H made the choice to leave me. I made the choice to "mistreat" him. We are both guilty. But I am making a choice to use my pain for growth. <P> TS, you say that you will never see the good in your divorce. How can't you? If you don't start looking, all your celibacy, self-analysis, angst, and bitterness will leave you hungry for real peace.

DanaB,<P>Correct me if I'm wrong...Maybe I need to go back to the thread you said it and quote it directly. You said you loved your ex "in your own way" and that you loved him like a "brother", not like a wife. Those were your words, not mine.<P>To me, you either loved him and wanted your marriage (as a wife), or you didn't. THEN you say you are happy to be rid of him, so that means to me that you didn't really love him (see the paragraph above) and you didn't want your marriage. Not to mention the fact you were pretty deep into a new relationship long before your divorce was final. These are not the words and actions of a person who is terribly distraught about a divorce, and they certainly aren't the words and actions of a person who has put a whole lot of thought into why their marriage ended. Just my opinion.<P>You can't have it both ways. I know that there are some "betrayed" who want to leave the impression that their spouse's infidelity was the worst thing that ever happened to them, but at the same time, are dancing a jig that they are now single. It leaves me with the distinct impression that they did plenty to hasten the ending of their marriages, even if they weren't the first ones to have sex with someone else. Again, just my opinion.<P>711,<BR>My hostility wasn't directed at you. It is directed at people who have acted like my ex. Since I'm picking on DanaB right now, I'll tell you how this relates...I'm pretty sure she didn't punish her ex like mine did to me. She says her ex had no remorse, and I did. So our circumstances are different in that respect. What she (and a few others here) has in common with my ex is that they want to claim infidelity victim status while still dating while they were married. Anyway, like I said, can't have it both ways. <P>In the big scheme of things, I guess I'm just mad that divorce is so common. With every divorce, it just becomes easier and easier for other couples to bail when they don't "feel" like it anymore. I get mad when people (in their efforts to feel better about their lives and choices) actually are GLAD they are divorced now. What kind of hammering do you think I'd get if I said I was GLAD I cheated? <P>It bugs me that all someone has to do is come here and claim their spouse cheated on them, and all judgement flies out the window. It's like, do whatever feels good cause you deserve it. What SOME people (not you 711) don't seem to understand is that the same "fog" their exes suffered is the same "fog" they are experiencing when dating someone new, especially if they haven't spent much time in their own head. If they date soon after a divorce, how could they? They are distracted by the new person...It's not just adulterers who are responsible for that 75% divorce rate for multiple marriages. <P>gsd,<BR>I almost missed your comment....<P>I will never be one to claim that my divorce was for the best or that I'm happy to be divorced. I absolutely believe in making one's life the best possible, which I try to do everyday. <P>You said I should "look"? What should I be looking for? I don't believe in "looking" for love. That is what people do when they want something, not when they have something to give. <P>Lots of people think I'm celibate because I'm punishing myself, but I'm not. Mostly, I've got stuff to do and some important goals (like a PhD, eventually adopting, buying my own house). Not only that, it appears we live in a world in which marriage doesn't mean a whole lot and we're all supposed to just go-with-the flow after a divorce. Like, oh well, didn't work out. Neeext. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 07, 2001).]

oops, double post<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 07, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>TS, you say that you will never see the good in your divorce. How can't you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think it is wrong to pretend there is "good" where none exists. At a minimum, divorce is a terrible tragedy. I think many people do their best to try to convince themselves that there is something good about it, or they are better off somehow, just because they can not handle the fact that horrible things do happen without any justification, and that good does not necessarily triumph.<P>If your spouse died of a sudden heart attack, no one would try to tell you that you are better off. They would accept that it is a tragedy, and just try to comfort you. Why is divorce different? Because somehow people hope that it is somehow predictable, that if you were to remarry it wouldn't be just as likely to happen again?

The Student:<P>Well, I'm glad to hear that I am not coming across as someone who thinks they are a victim. I know that is far from the truth. When I wrote my message the other night, I thought I may have been a little defensive. One of my many things that I'm working on. But, honesty, is one of my best qualities so I needed to make sure that hadn't changed. If I was coming across differently, I wanted to know. Sometimes I do wonder if I am all talk. It's like 99% of me knows what is the best thing to do at a certain time (like not dating too soon, work through issues, etc. etc.) and then that other 1% of me comes out and screws it all up for me. I used to be so easily persuaded (or manipulated) by others. Now, I am finally realizing that I need to do what I want or know is right and not be persuaded otherwise. My old bf pushed right through any boundaries I tried to set up but I was an easy pushover so I'm not really blaming him. But, I have learned that I need to stand firm on my boundaries going forward. <P>I also understand your anger towards your x but sometimes that anger seems to be taken out on others here. I appreciate that you responded to my post. I hate when the posts get confrontational. But, it also gives me some practice on dispute resolution as my therapist would call it.<BR>

711,<BR>I've got a confession to make. If you saw me in real life, I don't think you'd experience me as an angry person. I actually have a sense of humor (believe it or not). When I was married to my ex, I had a huge problem with his anger. Now, I still beleive he had a big anger problem. However, I took way too much of his stuff personally. Anger was not an emotion I expressed to him. Mostly I just cried. I did tell him how I felt, I truly did. If I'd had a thicker skin, I would have felt safer telling him off instead of just sucking in all of his insults. So, I stuffed a great deal of anger the last year or two of our marriage. Because I had a one-night stand, there were plenty of people here who told me I deserved to be treated the way he was treating me. I believed them too. That is another reason why I lay out the 20 questions to betrayed who seem a little to blithe about their marriage/divorce. Because I've been on both sides, perhaps I'm a bit more sensitive to inconsistencies.<P>So now, I swear I stir stuff up just so I can develop a thicker skin, and for the most part it has worked. I throw it out, and people throw it back. I've talked to some of my off-line friends about my tendency to use MB as my anger sounding board and have felt bad about it at times. On the other hand, there's lots of anger to go around here. Maybe it is cathartic to throw it at me sometimes too. <P>Nellie,<P>Oh, I totally agree. Not only that, if I ever WERE to date again, I'd have to dream up all these reasons why my divorce was such a wonderful learning experience. What a bunch of bull. All I really tell people is that my ex didn't want to try anymore and that I wanted to keep trying, but I can't control what another person does. That is not the same thing as saying "yoo, hoo, glad he's outta here!!"<P>gsd, <BR>oh, one more thing. I don't think that what any of the people posting on this board are experiencing is really love with the new people they are dating. Sure, they have feelings, but that is not love in my book.

<BR>Hey people RELAX!!!!!!<P>Everybody here has come for different reasons. Explanations, identity, healing, help, and insight.<P>We are not suppose to judge someone else's actions. While I realize these are hot topics sometimes can we please try to remember that all of us have been hurt to varying degree's whether we were the one that left or got left.<P>Response time,<P>Dana<BR>I understand what your saying.<BR>You loved him in the beginning and that love over time faded (for whatever reason) and you found yourself no longer "in love" with your husband.<BR>The statement of some people are still bitter etc... that was me. My point was that when you read these posts you can feel the energy coming from them. (negative or positive)<P>I don't believe anyone here is trying to say marriages aren't worth working on. But there comes a point to some people where they feel like they are losing themselves and in an attempt to rebuild sometimes you realize that rebuilding yourself can take you away from your spouse as opposed to closer.<P>For me i feel love for my ex but i respect the fact that we approach life in different ways. We lasted 10 years (5 married) and today we can't even be in the same room with one another because there is so much resentment. Yes i do believe my divorce was for the better and so does he. He found himself a woman that caters to his needs and i found peace within myself and lowered my stress level 100%. We don't work together. It always felt like a struggle. But that doens't deminish the person he is today. Being bitter towards him is a waste of my energy. I try sometimes to talk to him but he can not handle my being a friend so on his own actions he became the father of my child and today i have no use for him. I don't mean that harshly but i can do for myself. I've grown more independent and the guy i see now respects that. As i stated earlier my ex found someone whom he enjoys pampering. I can honestly say that i am happy for him.

Oh, I don't know. I suppose that I believe that part of the beauty of marriage IS the struggle. Of course, I don't believe that all marriages can or should be saved. However, the "I'm ok, you're ok" attitude about divorce these days is pretty disgusting. We have at least a 50% divorce rate in this country. Most of it is due to pure laziness and selfishness IMO. OF COURSE a new person is going to feel "right" and comfortable at this moment. They wouldn't have gotten together if it wasn't "easy" for them to do so. What keeps couples together though? As Gnomedeplume pointed out, vows aren't necessary when things are going beautifully.<P>Why is it "negative" to consider divorce a tragedy? Why is it "negative" to admit that it has totally screwed up my life? If I had gotten mugged or raped, or my spouse had died, noone would be saying "oh, this is such a great learning experience for you". On the other hand, IN SPITE of my personal feelings about divorce, I am FORCED to try and make my life the best possible because I can't control my ex's decisions. How encouraging is it for my neice (and my ex's nephews) to see that everyone of her/his aunts or uncles are divorced? There are simply more and more children now who grow up beleiving divorce is a solution to life's problems because of the adults around them....not just their parents. Our culture seems to be divided into two camps....those who beleive that divorce is an unfortunate circumstance that equates to little more than a bump in the road on the path to finding one's (idiotic) soul mate. Then there are those who believe that most divorces are completely avoidable and as destructive as almost any abuse. Anyone can guess which side I fall on. <P>rtn2,<BR>The "best" thing would have been for your ex to get some counseling to help him deal with his anger/abuse problem. I don't blame you for leaving a dangerous situation, though. Divorce in this case only postpones the inevitable for your ex, unfortunately. It might take awhile, but he'll probably end up abusing his next GF/wife as well unless he gets some serious help. It is likely you will end up with another abuser (or may even become an abuser yourself) down the line if you don't do the same. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 08, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>There are simply more and more children now who grow up beleiving divorce is a solution to life's problems because of the adults around them....not just their parents. Our culture seems to be divided into two camps....those who beleive that divorce is an unfortunate circumstance that equates to little more than a bump in the road on the path to finding one's (idiotic) soul mate. Then there are those who believe that most divorces are completely avoidable and as destructive as almost any abuse. Anyone can guess which side I fall on.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There is usually an appropriate Aristotelian mean between two extremes. Through mechanisms both official and unofficial, even the Catholic Church recognizes that divorce is sometimes appropriate. <P>And believe me, society keeps track of the ex count -- looking askance at celebrities who inexplicably run up the score. Few think marriage and divorce are a joke. So the "free and easy" divorce was intended to *help*, not hurt. The emotionally immature have simply chosen to make a revolving door out of what was supposed to be an emergency exit. Like welfare (where an indolent few made a hammock out of the abandoned homemaker's safety net), one can question whether the result lived up to the intention. <P>I believe it was too easy for my XW to divorce me. The no-fault laws in my state gave me little protection, and she has inexplicably blown off the Catholic Church (under which I had 12 years schooling, but of which I was never a member). But I'm not sure whether going back to the old way would do a lot for society. The no-fault divorce is a boon to women as I see it -- given that fewer of them are in the workforce compared to men, and their reproductive role trammels their earnings prospects; they are not *trapped* in marriages where they are *going crazy* (still have a hard time empathiziing with that one--but then, maybe we men "go crazy" without even noticing). <P>Has a boomerang effect occurred to the detriment of women? To hear the men tell it, I don't think so. Where the women have economic gripes, it's with men who are no-accounts anyway--the women would hardly be better off where divorce is unavailable.<P>I thought I had my soul mate; she didn't. I was just a supposed golden retriever who spared her from honoring her commitment to stand knee-deep in the Cameroonian mud and teach tribespeople to fish. <P>In the end, I'm left with unpredictable refluxes of bitterness; and I don't know what she has. Unanswered questions large and small will multiply forever like cosmic monoliths in the Jovian atmosphere. Symbiosis or co-dependency? The jury may never come in.

While I do feel for some, divorce can be easy, I believe there is a distinct difference on most of us who post here. <P>Student, what you fail to realize is that most of us are here because we wnted to save our marriages. <BR>If we had a "indifferent" attitude about marrriage, as you seem to think those of us moving on are portraying, then why did we seek out this site, why did many of us go to counseling, why did many of us go through the obvious pain of trying to deal with our WS, take them back time after time, <BR>why would we be here???<P>We are here because we wanted our marriages, tried to apply the principles found here on this site, and, we failed. For whatever reason, we failed. It may have a lot to do with us, or with the situation our marriage was in at the time, perhaps our WS had a midlife crisis, etc.<P> But, and I will speak for myself, I felt a real sense of failure. I come here now because I have accepted my place in not making my marriage what it could have been. But, it is time to move on, without judgements. That is what this site is for. <P>Student, if your commitment to marriage is/was so strong, you should never have married the second time. BUt, for whatever the reason, it did not work out. I do not believe that you were any less committed to that first marriage than the second, or at least you shouldn't have been. <P>So, you gave marriage a second chance. If it did not work for you, then we are here to help you heal. But, please, don't chastize those of us who want a future with another, and the promise of a good marriage. I believe we learn from each experience. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

double post, sorry<p>[This message has been edited by sue (edited January 08, 2001).]

Sue,<BR>You didn't see the post where I mentioned that I did not make a life-time commitment in my first marriage. I was ready to, but my first ex changed the "vows" at the last minute, at the altar. Those vows did not include fidelity, till death do us part, for better or worse, nothing. All he said was that he loved me and wanted to spend his life with me. I squeaked out a lame "me too". I should have walked out at that very moment, but didn't. "Till death do us part" was not a promise I made to my first ex. So, that is how I justified my second marriage.<P>You're going to have to work harder than that if you want to prove THAT point. <P>My first ex had our marriage annulled and was remarried less than a year afterward. So, by all accounts (promises not made and "marriage" annulled), I was not really married except on a piece of paper. Still, I did not remarry for at least 5 yrs following my first divorce. I hardly rushed back to the altar. <P>My first ex never said the words. Perhaps he was the more honest of the two. My second ex said the words and broke every promise on that list before it was said and done. <P>You don't really need to defend your level of commitment to me. You seem convinced you did everything you could. Who really cares what I think? You appear to be perfectly happy with your choices. That's fine. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 08, 2001).]

oh, one more thing...<P>If I hear one more time "it just didn't work out" I'm going to friggin' HURL!<P>If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and smells like a duck, it is probably a duck. Whenever someone says "it just didn't work out", "I've moved on", etc, etc, it inevitably is the person who chose the divorce. OF COURSE you've moved on, Sue. You MOVED ON the day you decided to get a divorce. DUH!!!<P>

Sysiphus said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Where the women have economic gripes, it's with men who are no-accounts anyway--the women would hardly be better off where divorce is unavailable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I disagree completely. My H cared very much about providing for his family when he was home. For the almost 25 years I knew him, he was only unemployed for less than a month. Although he worked in a white collar job most of the time, he was never afraid of hard physical labor.<P>Once he left, all that changed. He was laid off and has been out of work for nearly nine months, in a booming economy. Shortly after he left us, he mentioned that he would much rather have someone else do the hard, dirty work - an odd statement for a former dairy farmer. The "old" H would be working at whatever job he had to to feed his children. Now he seems not to care that his kids are living at about the poverty level. It is my responsibility, not his. He pays the court ordered child support, which isn't much, but he argued vehemently against having to pay anything for our children's college educations. <P>Once there is an OW, oftentimes men completely switch their loyalties to her and her family. It seems that the more devoted they were to their family, the farther the pendulum swings. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited January 08, 2001).]

Student, <BR>Your justifications for your first marriage not working is the same as others here. Maybe he did not "say" the words that day, but I am sure if you didn't feel it was a lifetime commitment you would not have married him. Whatever the reason, it didn't work. You went on to a second marriage. You wanted a marriage, a good one. So do the others here. <P>Your level of commitment is no different than the people you are chastizing here. Perhaps you waited longer to marry the second time, and I am sure that you felt that was anough time to heal and move on. <P>You don't have to convince me...just keep your assumptions about others convictions to their marriages to yourself and let those here to need to vent and discuss issues that pertain to moving on do it. We don't need your lectures about how corrupt we are. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>Once he left, ... [h]e was laid off and has been out of work for nearly nine months, in a booming economy. Now he seems not to care that his kids are living at about the poverty level. It is my responsibility, not his. He pays the court ordered child support, which isn't much, but he argued vehemently against having to pay anything for our children's college educations. <BR>Once there is an OW, oftentimes men completely switch their loyalties to her and her family. It seems that the more devoted they were to their family, the farther the pendulum swings.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's tragic, and I'm sorry it happened. My question (and it's not a question intended to demean your hurtful experience) is: Would this have happened in the absence of liberalized divorce laws? I honestly don't know. I suspect there would not have been much difference, but I can certainly see where people (especially people who have been divorced in a no-fault state) might feel differently. <P>Remember, I thought it was too easy for her to divorce me too. I just am not sure that going back to the old way wouldn't be abandoning a reform after we've forgotten the benefit we derived from it and the greater evil it eliminated. <P>Maybe this topic needs its own thread.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 09, 2001).]