Well here goes:<P>My STBX ... What do I see now?<P>I see a very weak confused man that says he's trying to do the right thing but only as long as he isn't inconvenienced or felt confronted with his actions, a man who is easily lead and frequently takes the path of least resistence regardless of who he may be stepping on. A man who blames everyone else for his bad decisions and life long mistakes and looks to women for his emotional strength to bail him out of his messes. A man who excuses himself for several trangressions touting he was burned by which ever woman he happens to be at odds with at the moment.<P>I just see a very weak man and a huge disappointment.<P>Jo

Bill, <P>Very nice post. OK I'll revise it to toe cruncher. I was waiting til I was less upset to reply to that post but I suppose I should have waited a bit longer.<P>However, I know of a few people who post on the boards who in fact HAVE had relationships, flings, or whatever you want to call them, I suspect there is a lot of relationships within MB as well, and some do not mention it on the board. The reason I say this is from private emails I have gotten from people who are afraid to tell the truth on the board. I know I have always been honest on the boards and also that my opinion of my marriage has changed drastically from the start of this and probably will be different after another year. I'm sure that's all part of the process, and also moving from denial to some form of acceptance, rather than only holding onto hope of one outcome.<P>I was thinking about Nellie's comment too, about staying for the kids, and I turned it around. I know I would not want my ex to have stayed strictly because of the kids in the end, or to return for them only, so part of my staying for them to avoid broken home was not correct either. <P>This site had a million points to debate on, the important thing is being considerate in the process and leave the insults out. I hope that people would come here and feel safe enough to be honest, because that's the only way to heal and get a reply that has to do with the topic you post anyhow.<P>Rtn2, good topic when it started though.<P>Dana<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jillybean36:<BR><B><P>BUT that doesn't mean that it is not right for someone else. Nor do I feel that if a person does date while being seperated it says they didn't really try to save their marriage. If you weren't there don't judge.<BR>I think we have gone past the just friendly argueing here. <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>While I am not sure which two members (I suspect more) you are specifically referring to who have doled out advice to newly divorced people (regarding dating), I suppose I am one person who received advice. I did date during my divorce proceedings; judge me if you will: I had a lunch date on the day of my hearing. Do I regret it? Yeah, sometimes, but I learned more from that experience than any other. My whole process was different from some here. My H left in June and I was divorced by November. Many others plan A'd even through the divorce and well after. Years of heartache and devotion. I respect and admire them tremendously. My plan A lasted only from June-October--the stretch of our separation. Is that not enough time? Well, some might say, but EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. I would still be married if my H had not made that choice to call for a divorce in September. I am grateful that no one here has ever said to me: "Hey, you didn't do it right, you lazy slob. Do you even KNOW what plan A is?" There is always more that one can do. I could remain faithful to my death bed and never give up hope that we would reconcile, but there comes a time when someone else's choice becomes your reality and you must accept it or live in utter misery, dissapointment and fairy land forever.<P> Someone here said there is a difference between letting go and giving up. A fine line, but still a distinction. Some are still holding out hope for reconciliation even now. That is their choice. I suppose your condemnation includes me because I can say that if my ex were to come back to me to say he wanted to reconcile, I would say no. Why? Good question. I could list a million reasons, but I suspect that none would be quite good enough for you. <P>One thing my H said to me: "Counseling could have helped, but I am happy now so it doesn't matter." I honestly cannot think that one person here could have uttered those words himself. He has to live with that "truth." But take off the part after the second conjunction (so) and I could make that statement. It does matter and always will. Terri asked what your prescription for suffering would be for her before her attempts were valid? Validity is to be determined only by the person who is living the experience. <P>I don't believe that anyone's advice is detrimental or hurtful. Everyone heals differently. You are healing by staying away from men, immersing yourself in your studies, and analyzing others' relationships from the outside, visiting this board, and considering adoption and other life options. While that may work for you, there may be others here who go out on dates with 20 men/women, stay home and eat potato chips every Friday night, join a weekly yoga class, or start skydiving for kicks. What if I said that you are trying to find fulfillment in academia to compensate for, let's say, low self esteem, bitterness, a sense of failure, fear of abandonment, penis envy, small feet?? (I'm not, but for argument's sake. . . .)

TS, <BR>I have never had a casual thinking about divorce, again, anyone can read a history of my posts and can see that. I object that you put your own twist to my words. I object to your comment about my kids. We can agree to disagree, that is fine with me. <P>You are in your own stage of recovery, and where you are is a good place for you. I am in a different place in my recovery, which is good for me. <P>It is the personal attacks which are so bad. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

gsd,<P>"What if I said that you are trying to find fulfillment in academia to compensate for, let's say, low self esteem, bitterness, a sense of failure, fear of abandonment, penis envy, small feet?? (I'm not, but for argument's sake. . . .)"<P>I'd laugh and say "Hmmm. Mayyyy-be"

danaB,<BR>you said:<BR>"I think the second husband was not going to stick around after the infidelity, and maybe you are angry at those of us who walk away because of that."<P>He was perfectly within his rights to walk away, but that is not what he did. He lied about an EA (and maybe a PA) before my confession. He went on a vacation with this woman within about 3-4 weeks after my confession, then stuck around and treated me like crap so he could tell his friends and family he "tried to save his marriage". THEN he wants to claim fidelity. Like you appear to be doing right now. <P>What I'm opposed to is your flagrant, unremorseful, hypocrisy and double-standard. What you did is no different than what your H did. To top it off, you now say you didn't really love him. You should be thanking him for doing the dirty-work for you. Like my ex, you want to claim victim status, yet go out and do as you please while still married. Sorry, I don't buy it. <P>I thought the "swapping fluids" comment was actually more polite than what I was really thinking. The fact that it bothers you so much might be worth evaluating.<P>Ok, I'm making a mental note to myself now...When responding to DanaB's posts only say what she wants to hear and what will make her feel good. Don't challenge her or anyone else here, and CERTAINLY don't point out any areas in their lives where they are not quite fessing up. <P>Personally, I like being challenged. I don't take your comments to heart. If something someone says bothers me, it is obviously an area I need to work on....Like why it bothers me when so-called betrayed hold a double standard about infidelity. Yep. I could stand to work on that.

GSD:<P>Thanks for the laugh!! The reference to "small feet" just made me crack up. <P>I think we need some more humor here.<P>Jen<P>

Dana B and The Student,<P>Dare I say, "Ladies, take it outside already."<P>Of the 100 odd replies to this topic (from which you both have completely digressed), a good majority are about the two of you throwing stones at each other.<P>I'm going to step out on a limb and speak for most of us who read and post regularly and say ENOUGH! Frankly, I've had enough petty bickering in my own personal life to last me til my dying days...if you two want to continue your brawl, take it private and swap email addresses or go to MSN Messenger and duke it out there.<P>I swear it's like putting up a mirror to my own marriage watching two (I'm going to be blunt) stubborn individuals fight to the death to convince the other of the "rightness" of their own viewpoint. Just agree to disagree already. Or just drop the discussion altogether. Be the bigger person and resist the urge to respond when a button is being pushed... Or get a divorce from each other! It's time to move on and "let go."<P>Love both your posts when you are helpful to others, but enough already...okay?<P>Lisa<BR>(preparing to be raked over the coals...)<P><p>[This message has been edited by soon2b_alone (edited January 17, 2001).]

TS,<P>I never said I didn't love him, I said I didn't love him the way a wife should any longer. Love can change, and it does. Kids play a major role in that. <P>I felt like a victim when it all happened, but as one of my posts I stated I learned a lot and I am willing to accept responsibility for my part. Obviously I didn't meet his needs as good as I could of, or this wouldn't happen. I didn't know a thing about needs or any of these other concepts until after it was too late. <P>I don't care how unhappy he was, there is no excuse for any man to leave his family on Xmas day though. He was not abused. It was a holiday that he has scarred the children for life on. A few weeks before the incident, he thanked me for sticking around all those years and putting up with his drugs, alcohol, whatever and that he was never going to leave. Not that I really believed it, but I certainly had no clue at that time of an affair. <P>The only real victims are the children as far as I'm concerned. But most definetly, anyone who has been cheated on, does feel like a victim when it happens. Then you try and find out why it happened and learn that it does indeed take 2 people. <P>In the meantime, I now get along with OW , she's not my best friend, and never will be, but we tolerate each other. Thats a lot because many people here would never talk to OW. My ex continues to tell me he loves me. He still wants to be intimate, (yuck),Tells my kids, and his family that too. Even though we are divorced, he tells me I will always be his wife, and that we will get back together in a few years again. I have NO clue why he thinks this, but I decided a long time ago I couldn't figure him out. It's actually all irrelevant at this point, but it still doesn't make sense to me. <P>Also, as far as dating, we've discussed this on other posts, (not just you and I, several people) that many people define a date differently. Going on one dinner with someone, that is a date. A date doesn't mean someone has sex. Just because you have a boyfriend doesn't mean you have sex. Most people do after a period of time, but that's not a given. <P>There was a time that I did try something out from comments here at MB and that was learning to discover ways to be intimate/affectionate without sex. I did that for a while, and I actually learned a lot and found that there are plenty of ways to accomplish that. I don't know where you get this opinion of me that everything is about sex, because its not. Sure it's important when in a serious relationship, "If" that is important to both people, but its not the number one thing in life.<P>

Lisa,<P>Appologies to you, I didn't see your post before I replied here. I am not going to rake you over the coals! I have never had a problem on the boards with anyone but one, I suppose I just got tired of nasty replies for almost 6 months and this post was my breaking point.<P>Dana<P><BR>

Dear Forum Members:<P>I see several of you have tried to make peace here and I thank you. Some of you have contacted Steve and sent email to me as well. Your concerns have not gone unnoticed and the feed back is appreciated. Please, feel free to contact us if this continues.<P>I am locking this thread to end the verbal assault, and do hope it stops here. Some of you need to remember this forum is a privilege, not a right.<P>Sincerely,<P>Magnolia