Tom,<BR>Chill.....<BR>I think both you and your X want the best for your son and daughter. The means of accomplishing this is different though with different end outcomes and this is the dilemma for you I believe.<P>Perhaps you and X can sit down and discuss what exactly you want son to learn, and how to do so in general. Explain that as you are not a teacher, you can see the goal a little more objectively...this should be somewhat conciliatory to X. Then you can discuss the finer details as how to best go about getting him to be responsible for his work,without you spending all this energy reacting to X helping him...inappropriately in your eyes.<P>Proofreading, editing and general advice/suggestions is part of what many parents do and as a teaqcher and parent I do and encourage others to do. Writing and typing the reports is not supposed to be part of this "job". However as a teacher I know that, many many parents actually do their kids work for them. We all know this is unacceptable.As a teacher I have explained to many parents as what helps and what hinders their kids work. Also teachers are very well equipped (or should be) to know if "homework" and "classwork" are of very different standards....and remarks are made about this in reporting.<BR>The reality is that many parents believe that without all this help, their child will not get into the school,course or whatever....so for many reasons choose to "cheat" for their child. Now when the work of the parent is not good,that is a further problem!<P>Goodluck....and remember, your X was trying to help your son......even if inappropriately, be thankful that she cares as do you. Your children are verylucky to have 2 caring and loving parents even though divorced

Willbok<P>I want the best in a different way, an independent way, not a dependency way.<P>I thank you for trying to slow me down, I realize that what you say is true. <P>however, her typing was done without the child, was given to the child to hand in, unseen. So she really didn't go over it, or explain it, or make him do any of the work.<P>There are many non independent actions she has and I see it with out kids. One response is that our 8yo does not like to stay with me with out her older brother, although afterwards she always says she has a good time, and we do.<P>And 8 yo brother is assuming a parental male role to her which is inappropriate, but great for the X as she can have him be responsible for her without her having the responsibility.<P>I know i dislike the teaching profession, as I am mostly self taught, and loved my high school and college and grad school years.<P>What you are reading is my pure frustration at having an alien really take over raising our kids, and the stuff I used to say that she used to b!tch at me about, she now tell the kids, so its all right for her to use but not for me.<P>its pure borderline personality which is very difficult to understand unless you witness it and understand it first hand. The stuff she uses to rationalize anything is just amazing.<P>I am slowly learning to chill out though.<P>tom

LOL...actually got a chuckle out of the prickles and pedals thanks..<P>My daughters teacher called tonite..about her failing his class, said she hasn't turned in so many assigments..I was like..okay..so she earned the "f" she chose not to do the work <BR>and got the grade she deserved..he was like<BR>HUH?? I said, well, I am trying to teach my children consequences for their actions..<BR>and lack of actions..he said he wasn't prepared for me tonite..hahaha. said all the other parents were whining and crying and begging him to "give them another chance"<BR>(grades are Already posted) but he's going to<BR>give all the kids that failed a chance to bring their grades up..by doing the additional work this semester..I wasn't happy..but he's the teacher..and I asked him<BR>what makes him think that they will do it next time if they didn't do it the first time??? I said..well, you can give them that<BR>choice..but don't be surprised if they choose NOT to do it.. I don't know..I can't imagine begging a teacher not to fail my child..if they honestly failed by not doing the assignments..or allowed others to do them <BR>for them...I guess thats why they have changed the standards in schools these days..<BR>so it doesn't matter if kids really try anymore or not..or if they cheat, or someone else does the work..as long as they get good grades..doesn't matter how stupid they really are...(even if they aren't, but end up feeling that way because they haven't accomplished anything)

Pricks&Petals<P>I believe in getting F's, but I also believe in redeeming oneself, whereby you learn from your mistake, learn about extra hard work.<P>Many people fail, I have, in high school, in college, and at both careers, yet by knowing that I can practice and overcome my failure, i can continue.<P><B> Let an F be a setback, not a permanent condition! by letting her learn how to UNDO an F will teach her how to experience what to do to NOT get an F next time. </B><P>Is this the prickers part of you? <P>tom

Tom,<BR>I would be MUCH more concerned about your son becoming a parental male role model for d than about the school work (S will NOT ask mom again so quickly since he did poorly....maybe???? or mom will not help so quickly!)<BR>I have 4 children. Older 2 I only read over papers etc...and suggested possible corrections. Younger 2 have huge academic difficulties etc, and required different monitoring...so in reality each child needs different "help" (and I could go on for pages about all this, but won't!<BR>However, the truth is unless son asks for your help, or you become "in charge" of this aspect of parenting, then little you can do.<P>However the other things you do need to deal with IMHO as this can be damaging not only to son, but d's well being as well. S can be "big brother" in a caring way, but to empower him over d is unhealthy.<BR>My son tried to do it to d and I put a stop immediately, telling him that he was not her father and had no right to butt in as he tried to do. This sets the kids up for further dysfunction. Now since you are an actively involved father, why is X empowering him? <P>Are the kids in therapy? Have you spoken to anyone else about this? <BR>If X is such a poor role model, maybe the kids would be better off with more time with you???Can you/do you want to take charge of this?

Okay, yet again, I have been silently sitting back and watching this thread go along, and I think we are missing the bigger issue. I believe it would be entirely possible for Tom and his stbx to sit down and establish some reasonable agreement about whether she types or does not type, whether she proofreads or does not proofread, etc. I bet we could all agree that the student should do their own homework and the parent might have input, but should not "do it for them." This is not really the problem. <P>Furthermore, I think it is very clear that Tom and his stbx have very different parenting styles--his is to teach independence and self-reliance and hers is to teach co-dependency and relying on others. Frankly, this will probably be an ongoing clash, because the styles are so different. Eventually, maybe he could learn to understand her style and she could learn to understand his--maybe they could even learn to work together somehow. However, this is also not really the problem.<P>Look over Tom's last few posts. Put the puzzle together. The real issue here is that there are life lessons, and attitudes, and behaviors being taught to Tom's children with which he STRONGLY disagrees and which he feels will be quite harmful to them, and yet he is frustrated because he can not "stop it" from happening to them, and he can not explain to the stbx why it is harmful! Look at the title of this thread: "Well, X still doesn't get it". The trouble is that, as a concerned father, his children are being taught and told things that strongly conflict with his view, and to further complicate matters, being a "weekend dad" his input is not a strong as he wants it to be. There is a little more reason to be concerned, because in this instance, it is not JUST a matter of conflicting parental styles, but there may actually be some reason for greater concern.<P>So, let's address the topic at hand. Tom's kids are possibly in a position that could be harmful to them (not physically harmed, but other ways), and he can't do anything about it!!! How in the world can he get his X to understand that what she is doing is HARMFUL? How in the world can he do what is best for his children without coming across to his children as the man who hurt mommy? How in the world can he keep his children from being harmed, if the harm is not the "clearly evident" kind--if it's more silent and insidious and hidden? How in the world can he explain to anyone else the trouble that they're in, if he can't explain it to us? <P>Heavy questions, hey?<P>(Deep breath)<P>Now, here are my thoughts on the real topic at hand. Tom, I do not think your X realizes the damage she is doing, because she does not see it as damage. After all, if SHE is that way, then how bad can it be (in her mind)? I think you would be spinning your wheels if you try and try and try to explain it to her--she just will not "get it." Part of the problem is just the personality type communication (she doesn't hear in the language you speak); but part of the problem is that she does not want to admit it to herself. To do so would mean that SHE is in trouble too! Thus, to make a long story short, I would not spend a lot of time trying to "explain" it to her.<P>Next, I would say that you need to take the welfare of your children as your top priority, not whether or not they "like" you. This is a bitter pill to swallow, but as a parent, it is often our duty to do for our children what we know is best for them THAT THEY DO NOT LIKE. Thus, what I am saying is that if you think there is sufficient concern over the harm, you have to act whether they get mad at you or not. It will not be easy, and your kids will rage and so will your X, but the welfare of your kids MUST BE #1!!! Keep that priority in mind as everyone around you reacts--you are doing what you must to protect your children.<P>Last, but not least, I came from a household where my mom was undiagnosed, untreated bipolar disorder. No doctor ever said that's what the problem was, but those of us who lived at home knew darn well that's what the problem was. Tom, this is not going to be a good-feeling thing to do, but you may need to start keeping a "diary" of the various behaviors and personality things that the X does in order to establish a pattern, "diagnosable" examples, and (hon, I'm sorry) to show that the hidden problem DOES exist. It will feel a lot like the person you once loved has become "the enemy" and that hurts like hell, but you may have to start proving the unseen. There may also be people at court or mental health professionals or wise folks around you who have knowledge about what to look for who would know what to look for and would not be fooled by "looking" okay. Know what I mean? See if there are people like that in your area--people like strong, pro-fathers-rights lawyers and judges; people who have known you and her over the years who have seen what you're talking about; people who can help.<P>Okay? Whew--I'm tired!<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Tom}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.<p>[This message has been edited by FaithfulWife (edited January 24, 2001).]