Enough,<P>I know that this is how you meant the post to be viewed. But even that supposition of "inner happiness" is very dangerous---often unfaithful spouses use this as an excuse to an affair.<P>The bottom line is that while you may be responsible for your own happiness, your spouse can be one of the greatest sources of that happiness. Conversly, your spouse can be the greatest source of pain and unhappiness. Marriage is about being "centered" on a relationship, and not just on one's self (and most would argue that much of "true happiness" comes through the service of others). Learning the relationship skills to center the marriage to an equal partnership is the most important thing you can do in your life.<P>But don't be sorry about the post---it's good to provoke some thought about these issues.

Enough:<P>My personal definition of an emotional affair, based on my H's EA: <P>"It's the same as a sexual affair, 'cept they keep their clothes on." <P>That includes: dating behavior, time spent together w/o spouse, private friendship, heart-to-heart discussions, embracing, saying I love you, sneaking around, gifts & favors, "being there" for one another, loyalty...am I missing anything? I'm sure I am but I think you get the idea.<P>My H's EA started years before I met him - so no one can say I should take responsibility for his actions.<P>When Judgement Day comes, do you think God is going to mitigate our sins by saying "yes, well I understand So&So drove you to it..."????<P>Thanks Enough - glad to see you're still around.<P>

I think there are probably many different reasons people have affairs...and everyone's situation is unique.<P>It's difficult to pinpoint it down to a reason why and I'm sure there are many underlying psychological reasons why people do it. I think what it came down to for me was that I fell in love with someone else. Not that I was looking for it, but when you work with someone and you're with them everyday it's easy to build an emotional connection...even if you don't mean to.<P>Yes, I'm married and yes I was terribly wrong in crossing the line with another man. But, I am human and although marriage is supposed to be a commitment and forever it doesn't turn off your desires for other people. That's why I initially had the affair...I felt I loved the OM more than my husband. I felt I had the rest of my life ahead of me and I wanted to be with the one that I loved the most.<P>After it's over, then you begin to realize what was missing in your marriage...mostly emotional needs. Then you can work on keeping those emotional needs on both ends.<P>I think what I'm trying to say that falling in love is falling in love. When you fall in love with someone when you're not married is it assumed that you're insecure or have no self worth? I just think it's being human. However, it's obviously wrong to fall in love with someone else when you're married. Sometimes affairs happen before realizing that there is something wrong with you're marriage and you don't have to fall in love with someone else to fulfill your needs.<P>I don't even know what I'm saying anymore!<BR>(Please don't get me wrong..I'm not trying to say that it's okay to have affairs.)<P><p>[This message has been edited by Holly (edited September 01, 1999).]

Long Suffering,<P>You must be on a different thread than I am because I didn't hear anyone, betrayed or betrayer blaming anyone. Why do you assume that all of us who've had an affair did so without trying to communicate our needs and our dissatisfactions with our marriages to our spouses? Is that what happened in your situation? If so, then I am sorry you were blindsided like this. But, I do think it's unwise to generalize all of us based on your individual experience.<P>I tried for years to get my H to open up. I tried for years to communicate with my H. I tried for years to break down the walls that stood between he and I. And if he were on this forum, he'd confirm this. And what he'd also confirm is that he is a conflict and intimacy avoider to the tenth power. My trying to get him to open up, "just because," was simply not going to work. Even after our crisis and the revelation of our dual affairs it's still extremely challenging and difficult for him to be open and honest.<P>So, sorry, you're wrong. I didn't just run out and have an affair without trying to improve my marriage. No, I didn't do such a good job, but you know what, neither did my H. We BOTH screwed up. He didn't listen, and maybe I didn't have the tools to make it easier for him to listen. But that's all water under the bridge now. Now is time for us to WORK TOGETHER. No more blaming, no more pointing fingers. <P>I'm sorry you are hurting, I sincerely am. Having been betrayed myself, I know it is not a good place to be. <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

New Woman,<P>So sorry, you're wrong. You need to re-read the posts here, many of you betrayers say things like, if my needs for happiness were being met I would not have needed to have an affair. Also, I did not assume anything, I asked "What did you do to fix yourself and your marriage?" So far I haven't gotten an answer to that from any betrayer on this BB. I am still waiting for a civil answer instead of a viscious attack. <P>I ask again, what did you or any of the other betrayers do to improve yourself and/or your marriage before you chose to cheat on your spouse??? As for my H, he has done nothing to try to improve our relationship and seems to spend most of his free time trying to think of mean nasty things to say to me and our 3 year old daughter (major, major love busting). I have tried to show him what he is doing to me and our child, by tearing up a picture of myself everytime he says something mean -- couldn't get thru to him, I'm sure the average cheater wouldn't get it though, too busy blaming.<P>I came to this BB for support during a difficult time, not to be harrasssed by cheaters.<P>Long Suffering<P>

Long Suffering,<P>I cannot believe what you've written here. Vicious attack?? What on earth are you talking about? You are the one calling people names and berating people. My goodness!! Did you not read anything I just wrote???? I did answer your questions.<P>But you know what, I'm going to try to be understanding. I see the root of your anger in this <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As for my H, he has done nothing to try to improve our relationship and seems to spend most of his free time trying to think of mean nasty things to say to me and our 3 year old daughter (major, major love busting).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I understand why you're so hurt and angry. What your H is doing is wrong. I'm sorry he is mistreating you like this. But, we're not your H. Please don't say mean things to us that you really want to say to him.<P>We cheaters have feelings too.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Long Suffering:<P>This is a place for support for people who want to rebuild their marriages.<P>Are you one?

Long suffering,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As for my H, he has done nothing to try to improve our relationship<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe that's not how he feels. Maybe he has tried (in his own way) and you didn't see it for whatever reason. I am NOT saying it was right for him to have an affair.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

K,<P>You stated:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I know that this is how you meant the post to be viewed. But even that supposition of "inner happiness" is very dangerous ---often unfaithful spouses use this as an excuse to an affair. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So very true this is. Many spouses will use this "finding one's own inner" happiness as a justification for affairs that can ultimately be the ruin of the marriage. Yet...there is a big difference in trying to find out what problems you have within yourself, addressing those problems, and then taking the steps to overcome them. This is a process that two must work at in a marriage, not just one. What about the serial cheaters who will go from one marriage, to the next, and so on, going into the next marriage with the same problems they came out of the last one with? Unrealistic expectations of what a marriage should be, perhaps? Running away from their spouse, because they don't have that *in love* feeling anymore, just to go on yet again to someone else? The cycle repeats itself unless you get to the root issue, and as I see it, it differs in every situation. So I do think that self-analyzation is a big part of it. <P>BTW, agree with nw, cheaters do have feelings too.<BR>

new woman,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I tried for years to get my H to open up. I tried for years to communicate with my H. I tried for years to break down the walls that stood between he and I. And if he were<BR>on this forum, he'd confirm this. And what he'd also confirm is that he is a conflict and intimacy avoider to the tenth power. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I could have written something similar. Not only did he not open up, but he has admitted that he consciously tried to hide his feelings, although it is not perfectly clear whether he was referring to before or after the affair started. I did not have an affair but my H is. I don't know what more I could have done, short of learning how to read his mind.

Madelyn:<P>I agree that self-analysis is an important component to learning these "marriage skills". However, it's important to do the analysis in the context of the marriage. For example, I may be a slob. This is something that I should put effort into, if it is important to my wife. If she's happy with my sloppiness, then I can better expend my efforts elsewhere.<P>And the root issues usually fall into pretty common "categories". The reason that I find it important to categorize and find commonality in these issues is that you can apply rather "universal" methods for recovering from affairs and treating the root causes. If one assumed that every affair was unique, and that every solution would need to be equally unique, I'd worry that people would give up before ever trying.<P>Nellie: when you deal with a conflict-avoider, you must learn techniques to encourage honesty and communication that don't put them in advoidance. Elimination of lovebusters is critical, and learning empathetic communication skills to "draw out" your spouses (very valuable) feelings and opinions is also essential. The hardest thing to deal with in terms of conflict-avoidance (IMO) is that by the time you recognize the symptoms, you may have inadvertantly done a lot of "negative" training which has reinforced the advoidance behavior.

K,<BR>Unfortunately, anything other than total agreement with him is apparently a lovebuster, and often it isn't even clear what his position is, so I don't know what to agree to. I refuse to get into arguments with him, and he accuses me of arguing anyway. I suspect his conflict-avoidance is reaching new heights in his relationship with the OW - she strikes me as controlling, he seems nervous if he is late returning to her, she appears to page him a few minutes after he is scheduled to leave after visiting the kids. What worries me is that he and I were together through 24 years of conflict avoidance, and maybe he will last almost that long with her. I don't know what else to do - Plan A has had no effect during the last 5 months, and he seems to grow increasingly more distant.

Betrayers and the betrayed are not meant to understand each other. Even Dr. Harley says that infidelity is worse than child abuse or any other thing a person can do to you, so how a person can choose to do this to the person they are supposed to love most in this world is beyond me.<P>I am and have been trying to improve my marriage and myself. I WILL NOT CHEAT ON MY HUSBAND, NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES TO ME. I am in control of myself and I do know right from wrong, and two wrongs do not make a right no matter how you look at it. I would never put anyone, not even my worst enemy thru what I have been put through by my first and now my current H. No one, NO ONE deserves to be cheated on, they may however deserve to be divorced. I won't cheat on my H, but there is a very good chance that I will have to remove myself from this horrible situation and divorce him.<P>To all of you betrayers, if my honest opinion is too hard for you to take you may want to just skip over my posts. I would still be interested in hearing, specifically what steps you took to improve yourself and your marriage before you chose to cheat on your spouse.<P>Long Suffering

Long Suffering:<P>I don't know your situation at all, and so please do not think that the following generalizations apply to EVERYONE.<P>However, here is what I have noticed about affairs (IN GENERAL), including my wife's, from being here for 6 months:<P>It is VERY rare that the betrayed spouse has done EVERYTHING right. I do not mean that as a justification for the affair, but we betrayed spouses would be idiots to think that we were doing everything right. We weren't, no matter how much we think we were.<P>Here's my situation: I was always a good husband. I never cheated. I always called when I was going to be late. I never forgot important dates and anniversaries. I didn't do ANYTHING to make my wife distant from me . . . except:<P>I was not accessible. I didn't spend enough time with her. I didn't show enough affection, even though I told her every day that I loved her. I was busy trying to study for the bar exam, working 10 hours a day. That left VERY little time for me and her to be together.<P>I didn't do EVERYTHING right. Honestly, I don't know how else I could have handled it, because my time was SO booked up for those few months until the exam was over. This paved the way for her to turn to HIM.<P>Now, do I blame myself for her affair? No f-ing way!! SHE chose to do it. However, my unavailability made it easier for her to do it. My decision to sacrifice working on my marriage for working on my career goals made it easier for her to justify the affair to herself.<P>Therefore, I'm not blameless in the whole scheme of things. True, I did NOT make her have the affair. That was HER choice. However, neither did I try my hardest to prevent one. I simply never thought she would do that kind of thing. Now I know better.<P>I think you're not realizing that there are TWO dynamics working in affairs. There is the choice of the betrayer, but there is also the contribution of the betrayed to the breakdown of the marriage. Broken marriages are easier targets for affairs. I know of VERY few marriages in which both spouses are totally fulfilled, yet an affair still happens. SOMETHING is usually not right, and the reason the affair happens is because the betrayer spouse CHOOSES to deal with the problem THAT way. Doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't mean we betrayeds have completely clean hands.<P>Just something to chew on.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

I never said that spouses who get cheated on are perfect, no one is perfect. I have never said that I am perfect, I have said that I am in control of myself and my choices. I'm saying that if you are aware enough to notice that there is a problem in your marriage that you are looking for someone to screw around with, wouldn't that time be better spent trying to make things better in your marriage? Also, since cheating is not an option for me, I might be able to use ideas of things cheaters tried and they might work for me. Every person is different, every relationship is different, every marriage is different, every affair is different in some way. <P>Things have not been great for me in this marriage, but I am always trying to try to make things better, if I was a weaker person, I could have run off and had an affair, but two wrongs do not make a right. I have not went looking for someone to have an affair with, anyone who goes looking can find someone to screw around with, but I will not do that to anyone, not even my H.<P>Someone said they tried to communicate, they tried to break down those walls, etc. Well what exactly did you try? Maybe that would work for me in my situation, even though it did not work in yours. If you really are trying to be helpful to others who are working on their relationships, why not give out some suggestions??? <P>Someone else said that they are now happily back together with their spouse, then how come you sound so bitter in your posts, you should be loving and helpful. If I had to guess how your relationship is going just by reading your posts, I would guess that the H you stole from someone else has now left you for someone new.<P>Long Suffering

Honestly, what could your H or W have done differently that would have made your marriage happier and kept you from having an affair???<P>If you really want to help people, honestly answer that question!!! An honest answer could help hundreds of people avoid a lot more pain.<P>Long Suffering

What Long-Suffering said.

Long Suffering,<P>This is not a justification of what I did in anyway,shape or form, please know this up front.<P>To answer your question what could my H done to prevent me from having an affair?<P>Try to meet my need for conversation.<P>Get counseling with me after his affairs.<P>Get counseling in November 1998 when I asked him to do so, once again (I have asked off and on most of our relationship).<P>Use the Policy of Joint Agreement with me.<P>Those are just a few, but you get my point. Most betrayers are hurting people. I do not agree with my decision to have an affair and I still hurt from making such a horrible decision that will affect my husband, myself and our family. I was wrong, very wrong. <P>I am very sorry for your pain and I hoped this helped.

Hi All -<P>Just need to jump in here a second!!<P>K -- <P>In your reply to Nellie you mentioned Empathetic Communication Skills....What are those and where can I learn about them?<P>I believe that my H is a big-time conflict avoider and I would benefit greatly from this information.<P>Thanks in advance.<P>Sheba<p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited September 03, 1999).]

LS,<P>Honest answers, you ask to what a spouse could have done to prevent this? <P>* Communication. It's important for a spouse to know that their opinion matters, and when trying to express an idea or relay a problem at work, with friends, etc., sometimes they just want you to listen, not tell you that you should have handled it differently. <P>* Need to feel important and special to your H/W. Not as if you are just a roomate.<P>* Make the marriage a priority, the relationship with your spouse should come before friends, work, etc.<P>* Tell your spouse you love them.<P>* Don't take your spouse for granted. You are with them more than anyone else, and that can become a situation that easily becomes too comfortable. Realize every day what it would be like if they weren't there. <P>* Show affection. Hugs and kisses mean alot.<P>* Make a date with your spouse like when you just met one another, go to a romantic dinner, hotel afterwards, spark those first time feelings.<P>If we would give more effort into our marriages, they could flourish. Still, nothing justifies an affair. And I don't think most people go out *looking* for an affair either.