711,<P>Well, hmm. I don't know if sex is necessarily and "indicator" of interest. I don't think it is necessarily that black and white. However, with many people I know (both men and women), waiting doesn't have much appeal either. The "bad girl" stigma is not as prevalent--which I consider to be a good thing. The down side is that some people get hurt, and of course, we all know what the other risks are. <P>What makes things so confusing is that there really is very little agreement anymore about what constitutes good morals. That is why I didn't really have any suggestions for you. <P>On one hand, I could imagine that one way to develop a thick skin when it comes to rejection is just to fling oneself out there, kind of throw caution to the wind, and most likely get rejected or dumped a whole bunch of times. After awhile I could imagine becoming numb to "rejection", especially if I made sure that my needs were being met and didn't spend a whole lot of time worrying about whether the other person's needs were being met. I could assume that they were responsible for making sure their needs were being met and I could concentrate on having mine met, then if our needs just "happen" to coincide, then wha-la--relationship. Except that approach doesn't appear to work too well when things start going wrong. Neither person has developed any real relationship skills. On the other hand, the world is full of people who don't have problems finding someone new to meet their needs. It all depends on what you are willing to deal and live with.<P>People who have a more conservative approach (and I do personally know a few) appear to be spending much more time "alone". A couple of my co-workers haven't had girlfriends in maybe three years or so, and I know they aren't gay. There are women who would feel the guy isn't interested if they didn't make a pass (or express sexual intent) within a certain time frame. It's not just men who have these expectations. <P>

one more thing...<P>I thought of something that might help you...One way to reduce complexity is to eliminate as many variables as possible. <P>Hand holding (yes/no), first kiss (when), who pays, sex/no-sex, where to meet, who drives, these are all variables. Choosing different variables usually has some (fairly) predictable responses. Dating (or anything) only becomes complex when you are not aware of the variables, you have no control of the variables, or you are not clear about the desired outcome. <P>Yea, as the engineer, I can make just about anything into an equation. So, my recommendation is to determine what the desired outcome is for you (which you say is casual, non-serious, non-sexual dating/companionship) and then eliminate as many variables as possible that will make that goal more difficult. <P>For me that means not introducing or becoming involved in any situation where my intent (or another person's intent) can easily be misconstrued. No hand-holding, kissing, I pay my share, and no one-on-one situations with men I don't know very, very well. But that's me. You need to decide for yourself what elements produce the most confusion or variability for you.

Yeah. The rules that matter are the ones you make for yourself.<BR>

Thanks everyone!<P>I think I am now prepared for anything.<P>Sounds like the consensus on the guy I am dating is that he is a jerk. I tend to agree but I also wonder if he is just different from the guys I have dated in the past. My x and the last guy I dated would do anything for me. Which was good and bad. This guy does what he wants. Of course, that does sound selfish but then I feel like I am selfish too at times so I feel I have to cut him some slack. He does do some nice things too. It's funny, my x always complained that I always focused on the negative things about him and overlooked all the positives. He could be perfect all day and if he did just one bad thing, the whole day would be ruined. Which was true. So, now I want to keep things in perspective and not judge someone too harshly too soon. I do enjoy his company and we have some very interesting conversations and we have done some fun things together. So, I'm not going to give up just let.<P>I do have a pretty good head on my shoulders and I know I have to just trust myself more. That is what all my friends and family tell me to do. I'm making some progress. However, I guess since I did post these questions, I still have a ways to go.<BR>Unfortunately, my kids are too small to ask for dating advice. So, I have decided to come here in see what others have to say. <P>Sounds like sex is what screws up keeping things casual. So, if I just go out with the guys like I do with the girls, than it should be pretty easy to keep things casual. Unless, of course, there is chemistry with the guys.

711,<BR>Even though it is not considered to be proper etiquette to discuss past relationships with a "date", it is completely acceptable with a friend. <P>I don't necessarily think this guy is a jerk. Sounds like he just needs a friend to help him sort things out. My guy friends have heard all about my significant past relationships (ad nauseum, probably ). It's easy for me because there is no "tension" there. I talk to them the same way I talk to my girlfriends.

I guess sex is the factor that determines the "casualty" of the relationship. (I know it is the wrong use of the word, but I couldn't resist.) Is everyone saying that you can't have a serious relationship without sex? You can have chemistry, attraction, a committment, and a bond without it, yes? And for some, sex isn't serious. It's just something to do during commercials.

TS:<P>We do talk to each other quite a bit about past relationships and what went wrong and what we plan on doing differently next time around. I enjoy those conversations. He even suggested for our first "date" that we write out the 8 most important things one needs to have a good relationship. Although I thought that was kind of strange at the time, it was fun. We pretty much had the same things on our list. After a year on this site, it wasn't too hard to come up with the list. Actually, someone had posted that question about the same time, so it made it very easy.<P>One of the things that I have realized about this guy is that I did make it clear from the beginning that I really just want to be friends right now. So, he is probably treating my differently than he would a date. If I get to the point where I want more, I wonder if he will start acting differently.

....just something to do during commercials???<P>You poor thing!<P>

"Sounds like sex is what screws up keeping things casual"<P>Only if you aren't ok with casual sex. Unfortunately, that term is WIDE open for interpretation and....people will often interpret it in any way that favors them at the time. Especially when the blood is flowing to places other than the BRAIN!! LOL. <P>

Hi Jen,<P>I agree, he might not be a "jerk" cuz of that, he just might not be as sensitive as you'd like. I would personally get a few red flags, but I wouldn't walk away just because of it.<P>Are you sure you are ok with that list on the first date! Yikes!!!! I read somewhere, that the first dates are not supposed to be counseling sessions (about past relationships, etc) and to keep them fun. I don't remember where that was, but it makes some sense to me. Some of that stuff, like someone mentioned, you can talk to with a friend, guy or girl, but maybe on the first few dates, you should lighten it up a little. I wish I remember where I read that, but it was a long time ago.<P>To Tom and Jay, thanks for the support! <P>Hugs, Dana<P>

GSD:<P>I believe that people can and do still have serious relationships without sex. Just read some of the earlier posts of the benefits of waiting to have sex until you truly know the person or are married. Recently, I heard a pretty good sermon regarding sex and intimacy. The minister said that for those who wait, they are blessed with incredible intimacy because that is what God wants for us all. That is something I have been thinking about lately. But, I certainly am not one to preach on this topic. And, I hope I do not offend anyone with this religious viewpoint. <P>Dana:<P>I have also heard that you shouldn't talk about past relationships on dates. But, I haven't been able to do that yet. Probably due to the fact that I have met the men I have dated recently through the singles/divorced support group at my church. Such a safe environment. I did feel like I was on an interview. I guess I passed. <P>I would like to lighten things up a bit. We are playing tennis this weekend so that should be fun. Maybe we can talk about sports and other things for a change. I can't believe I am actually playing tennis again and enjoying it. I even won the round robin last weekend. I was so nervous in the beginning but after a beer or two, I was unstoppable. Of course, I couldn't walk for days afterwards. Ouch!!<P>Finally, I'm also shocked by what happened with your x and OW over the phone. What nerve. That really is unbelievable. I'm sorry that you had to go through that. <P>

Hi Jen,<P>That makes sense about the place that you met them making it hard not to talk about the past too soon. Tennis sounds like fun! We can't do much here but go sledding!<P>Sorry to take over your post on the phone sex comment. It was a year ago can you believe it! I can't! I'll never forget the day he did that, but it was like the beginning of the end. I know it would have taken longer to move on if he didn't get so viciously spiteful and mean so early into the discovery. Plan A was hard back then!<P>Serious relationship without sex, yes its definetly possible. Yes, I have worked hard at that after realizing that I wasn't sure if things moved too fast. It helped to solidify the bond, chemistry, connection because we grew closer together even without it. Sometimes its hard not to get caught in the moment. But I did go back and try something new (from tips from this site) and I found lots of ways to be close/intimate without it. Looking back, I'm glad I made that move, just wished I hadn't got caught in the moment. OH well, live and learn. We're still together half a year later, so I guess it worked out ok, right?<P>Have fun with tennis,is that with the new guy or the first guy? Did you decide on seeing 2 people? If you keep it very very casual/non-intimate, it could work, but it is still WORK! <P>Hugs,Dana<BR>

Dana:<P>No problem talking about your issues. You can take this post wherever you would like. <P>I am playing tennis with the new guy. I am only corresponding by email with the old guy. We both have agreed that it would be a mistake to get back together right now. But, we haven't closed the door to getting together in the future when we have worked through more of our issues. We both have acknowledged that we are dating others right now so that is out in the open now. He said he found it to be a drag and has found being on his own more fun. I have found it more stressful than anything else but probably because of the guy I am seeing.