<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B>His reasoning here is that if I get the divorce, that is all I should get. Short, of me backing down and walking away with nothing,he sees no other solution.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What would you demand as damages for the loss of your dream? All you want is <I>out</I>. He wants this <I>happily ever after</I> fantasy that he still possesses, and that is now being ripped from him. Yours (if you ever had one) died long ago--at his hands. But his still lives.<P>That's not evil, that's muddle-headedness. Which is not to justify his actions. But it may suggest some avenues in dealing with him--avenues other than a mutually exhausting frontal attack or defense.<P>

Daveyboy:<P>I have two boys. My rollercoaster ride has been going on now for over one year. The marriage started going down hill about 10 years ago. Some of it was not anyone's fault...life was just difficult. In any case, things got to the point where I was miserable. I, foolishly, participated in an EA with someone I met over the internet. When my H found out about that is when things got ugly. The EA ended...we went to counseling...things got uglier and uglier. <P>My H had second, third, and fourth, chances. He hasn't changed even a little...in fact he has gotten worse. So, no, I have no interest in staying married to him.<P><BR>

Sisyphus:<P>My H does not have any fantasy about living happily ever after. He has a very archiac attitude about marriage...the man is the Lord and Master...the wife is his property. In the 16 years were were married, he never referred to me by name...but always as his, "wife." It ticks him off that I had the audacity to thwart him and want a divorce. It used to bug the h*** out of me. <P>The only thing I'm asking for in this divorce is half of what was mine; the savings, the investments, the house, and child support for our two children. Before we were even separated he closed all of our joint banking accounts, took away the joint credit cards, etc. <P>The best way for me to deal with him is to have no contact. [<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B>the man is the Lord and Master...the wife is his property.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's fantasy if I've ever heard it! Straight out of <I>Conan The Barbarian</I>! <P>And he thinks that you're not going to <I>be his</I> property, you're certainly not going to <I>take</I> any of <I>his</I> property. Fine. Maybe you can't tell him any different.<P>He thinks he's a great guy. I wish he would unfog enough so that he would be helped by seeing something you could write like this:<P>"You say you're a great guy. I'd settle for decent.<P>A great guy would offer the woman he loved even more than she deserved if she chose to leave him. You're offering zilch. A guy discovering his decency would at least want her to have what the law would say she deserved, and would work with her to get to that number instead of wasting what we both have on attorney's fees.<P>A great guy would let go easily of a woman who wanted to leave him, even if he believed himself to be in the right. You have done everything you can to be possessive of me. A guy discovering his decency would look at himself and see where he was thoughtlessly refusing to let go, even though it hurts him to do it."<P>I'm sure you could fill several pages with thoughts like these. <P>And he could fill several pages with what his fantasy wife would do for him. <P>Although your marriage is irretrievable and you don't want it back anyway, what can you do to show him that you respect what <I>is</I> good in him, and <I>expect</I> him to meet some reasonable standard, and not have to be forced to heel like some snarling monster?<P>Because "hiself" is not a real word (instead, it's just a typo) unless you go back and add an "m", <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 14, 2001).]

Sisyphus:<P>See what I mean? I would gladly do whatever it took to smooth things over, but just like everything else in this marriage, it won't be over until he says its over. Fortunately, the courts will eventually terminate this little drama. The legal fees are over the top, but my H doesn't care. <P>You know, when you wrote about what a great guy would do for the woman he loves...I have said those very things myself. How can anyone profess to love someone when they have gone out of their way to hurt and humilate. I sometimes wonder if he ever loved me or if I was just the trophy wife?<P>

You know Im just thinking here. You gave your husband 4 chances you say, Im not your husband. All I need is one more chance and I will promise the world I will not screw it up. I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT. I no what my faults are and how I need to correct them. My W her faults can easily be corrected by just telling me whats wrong when something is wrong. I would even suggest to my W that we see a marrriage counslor once a month and just talk to make sure this would never happen again. I am willing to do anything. I just cant believe like others (family, friends and people I dont even know) that i am not intitled to a second chance to prove myself and my loyalty and commitmant to my W and family. Oh how this just burns my butt. Why is this??<BR>Still waiting to here my solutions<BR>Bumbed out on V day Davey

Perhaps...I could be of better assistance if I knew your story. Aside from your wife having a chemical inbalance and wanting a D...I don't know what happened. Why does she want out of the marriage? Is there OM or was there OW? What happened?<P>You say you only want another chance. Before she left, had she expressed that she was unhappy?<P><BR>

There was no one else in our relationship that i know of and still isnt, everyone assures me of that. even XBF called her after we split and asked her out and she turned him down. She says she wants out of marriage because she is just not happy and does not love me like a husband. Like I said before I used her as a W and thats about it. I was a bad husband emotionally to her and realize this. any other questions I will gladley answer.<P>Daveyboy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B>I sometimes wonder if he ever loved me or if I was just the trophy wife?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He simply fails to be thorough and rigorous about working out in his mind the things that go wrong in his life. I'm sure you remember that we call that "fog". And being in love is a kind of fog too, but a happy and helpful kind. Yes, he loved you. And when it went wrong, you too had to go through a kind of reappraisal process. <P>Your marital history has, to some extent, been rewritten by you--so that you could live with yourself after leaving him. I'm not saying it's wrong to do--especially where you have been physically abused. I'm just saying that your now allowing yourself to believe that he might nver have loved you is an example of that kind of rewriting. <P>If he <I>thought</I> he loved you, but had an imperfect understanding of what the word meant, does that <I>invalidate</I> his love? Who among us has a perfect understanding of what it means to love?<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B>I am not saying this to be mean spirited nor do I harbor a lot of bad feelings. I don't. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>LonelySoul,<P>Well, maybe you don't harbor a lot of bad feelings, but you will do until we find someone who does. After reading your posts on this thread, you sure had me fooled.<P>Has it ever occurred to anyone that we are all arguing the same side of the same issue? So many posts point to the same idea: "Well , OK, I was a little bit wrong, but that still doesn't justify what my spouse did, which was obviously so much more wrong." Somehow, the spouse's transgression is much more offensive than any transgression on my part. According to my ex wife, her physical affair wasn't as cruel as the one I had after I found about it. My PA was much worse because I knew about her PA, and was acting out of revenge.<P>Of course the spouse was a controller and a manipulator. You know, I might have done some of that myself, but of course, not as bad. But then few posts recognize that the writer is involved in some controlling and manipulating on his or her own. How often do we write from a postition of a mostly innocent and injured party?<P>Seems to me that many posters are really not all that opposed to controlling and manipulating, they get a lot more concerned when they feel that they have been controlled or manipulated. And if they feel ignored and taken for granted, out come the brass knuckles.<P>There is an old Irish Proverb that says: "If you would know yourself, listen to your critism of others!"<P>You just can't change another person, period. But you can change yourself and you can grow from the experience and you can go on and lead a satisfying and productive life.<P>Bumper<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumperii:<BR><B>Seems to me that many posters are really not all that opposed to controlling and manipulating, they get a lot more concerned when they feel that they have been controlled or manipulated. And if they feel ignored and taken for granted, out come the brass knuckles.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Isn't courtship all about manipulation of another's heart so that they love you? No, wait, back up. Courtship is about exploring with another person the question of whether your relationship should go to the next level, and the next, and the next. But in doing that, don't you seek to engender good feelings? Isn't that manipulative? Of course it is. But the other doesn't object, because you're pulling them in a direction that they find pleasant anyway. <P>When you do something that acts as a brake against a movement in a direction <I>you</I> don't want but <I>they</I> do--now it's <I>manipulative</I>. The question is: do you manipulate with sincerity, or is it a situation where you know you won't deal evenhandedly with a lover who is drifting away? Or do you overpromise, when all you're equipped to do is take baby steps?<P>And controlling may be when you simply don't make it easy for them to leave. Why are you doing that? Because you really want them to stay and are ready to make whatever changes they want to see? Or again, do you simply want things your way? <P>A lot of times, by the time one spouse is ready to make the right moves for the right reasons, the other spouse is too far gone down the road of jaundiced reappraisal. Until spouses learn early to handle themselves and each other, that's just gonna be "the way it is".

Bumperii:<P>I take responsibility for my actions. I am not perfect. Perhaps I used the wrong wording...I am hurt and mortified by my stbxh's actions. I don't hate him, I don't bad mouth him to his children. I do know in my heart that I was a good wife to him for many years. I have many people who will back me up on this. Even, he will say I was. I had become a doormat. That isn't a vindictive statement; it is fact. <P>I believe it is natural to want to hurt someone who has hurt you, but that is not what happened here. The EA I spoke of never turned into a PA...I never even met this guy face to face. My H told my parents, my siblings, his boss, his family, and our children that I was an adulteress. He said I lusted, therefore, I was guilty. How do you reason with that kind of thinking?<P>I do know...that I can look in ther mirror and know that even through all of the ugliness of this past, I never acted evil or mean toward him. And belive me, I had just cause.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B>My H told my parents, my siblings, his boss, his family, and our children that I was an adulteress. He said I lusted, therefore, I was guilty. How do you reason with that kind of thinking?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You don't. Because it's logical, even though it doesn't come from the same premise where you are starting from. You chalk it up to experience and go forward.<P>If someone's "adultery" is in private, then yes, it should stay private. If it's flagrant, the cuckold is under no constraint, but why bother telling everybody what they already can see with their own eyes? You may have been guilty, but what good could he possibly have thought would come from spreading word of it? He just wasn't thinking straight, so he acted on his feelings. Which were mainly anger because he hadn't taken the time to process them.<P>Nonetheless, it's over and done. <P>And while it may have been bad judgment (and bad for the kids), I honestly don't think it's something you can count as a wrong against you. It was largely accurate about you, even though it was uncharitable. Your anger is at having your dirty laundry aired. Too bad. That's why you keep your laundry clean. <P>You forgive yourself for your affair--why can't you forgive him for his reaction?

Sisyphus:<P>I forgave him a long time ago for that. He just hasn't forgiven me, or should I say forgotten it. Every chance he has he makes mention of it. <P>I have a problem with his meaness. I have a problem with him trying to shoke me in front of our eleven year old and then saying he did it because he loved me. I have a problem with being spit on. I have a problem with him reading my personal journal, scanning the pages onto a disk and then giviing them to his lawyer to read. Shall I go on?<P><BR>

I have problems with all that too. <P>What has he sincerely apologized for? And have you forgiven him for it and told him?<P>I feel like you're still at his throat, and he likely feels he has no choice but to keep squeezing yours.<P>Sure, the lawyers can finish it. Too bad the both of you can't. That's not a judgment of you, Lord knows you've been through enough. I just hope others will see themselves in what we have written to one another before they get to a point like this--even if they do wind up divorcing.

He has aplogized for none of it. He told me had he really wanted to kill me, he would have. Is that an apology?<P>If getting a divorce and a restraining order is being at his throat than I quess I am guilty. I have been accused of not being mean enough. I don't like conflict, and Lord knows I have seen plenty.<BR>

Lonely & Bumper<BR>any more thoughts for me on this wonderful Vday, feels like its Dday.<P>Daveyboy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daveyboy:<BR><B>W says she has noticed that i have changed, but it doesnt effect her. Can really use some advise here.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It doesn't affect her <B><I>yet</B></I>. Patience is part of what you need to show her. You're doing the right thing just being a good guy and taking it slowly. At most, you can ask her counselor for a referral to the colleague he speaks to most often--then you'll have a functioning backchannel. Not only that, it will be a backchannel through trusted professionals skilled in communicating.<P>Good luck.<P>

Davey:<P>I know Valentine's Day can be a downer; it is also my anniversary. I got candy from my boss; something I don't need. That's it. But, really, it is just a day. I never got all sentimental about it anyway. <P>How long were you married? I know you said you didn't meet your W's emotional needs...how so?<P>My antedote for this day is for all of us to go out and have a beer, or whatever, and be happy for the company

Thanks Lonely for the encouragement.<BR>We were married 6 years lived together for 3 before that. By not meeting her emotional needs I guess i mean when i "lured her in" I did alot of little special things flowers, notes etc. made all of her friends jealous and family women too. made her feel awful special. talked alot in bed, told her I loved her all the time etc. when we got married I stopped doing that, not on purpose but just because there were so many other things going on..new house, work, etc. I guess i just forgot about those things and took them and her for granted. now the last thing in the world she wants from me is flowers.<P>Daveyboy