quick history, <P>several years ago, I suggest private school options for kids as i see much better educational places nearby for kids with straight A's so far. X says no, public is fine from her sources, and kids will have no problem getting into her school, she says. I disagree, but we can't do it without agreement anyway. X hates when i push kids mentally, or suggest rewards for good grades, or encourage extra effort, etc. she said i concentrate too much on grades.<P>then W gives the "not in love" speech a year ago, I Plan A for 3 months, W moved into new house, said I can't go. So i get nearby apartment, drag then W to mediation, during discussions, I say kids need counseling, kids will have hard time getting into exclusive boarding school where X teaches. X says kids will be fine, will have no problems getting into school, kids won't need counseling, they will be fine.<BR>I tell her that if she thinks that kids from a relatively normal family with a fairly involved dad divorce and expects kids to have a complete understanding and acceptance, she doesn't get it. she finally relents, and says she will do whatever is necessary for the D. (not the kids mind you)<P>so i hang tough with the kids on grades, get X straightened out ocassionally about need for structure in kids (beginning of school year, kids getting F's and not completing homework while at her house).<P>Now, 12 yo old takes entrance exam to W's school, and gets terrible results. X talks to child about what he has to do, but what is required is in complete opposite to X's personality and style, and kid is like her, rebellious and dislikes authority. she talks to him about NOT being a minimalist, and yet, she used to openly criticize me about working hard, defended kids when i mentally challenged them, <BR>puts minimal effort into our marriage, but criticized the heck out of me, then kicks me out. and i am the only role model of hard work, intelligence, etc.<P>so I "predicted" if you will this not beig able to get in, another of tom's predictions appears to be coming true, and X is out in fogland about what life takes, of course none of his falling grades have anything to due with divorce, lack of structure at X's house, etc.<P>oh, and night before 9 yo's birthday, X hands me her lawyers version of the divorce agreement, with changes she said that i can see them one night a week less, too disruptive on school nights.<P>now how do in handle her in that her speeches to the kid are in direct conflict with her actions, and does not want to admit any responsibility of the divorce on the kids falling grades, and that i might be right? she is a minimalist, her family are minimalists, and she encourages lots of time of 12 yo sleep overs at friends house where they barely made it through high school. in other words, she is dating lowly educated people, blue collar workers, encouraging lots of time with friend whose dad tells the kids that any day without school is better than school, (direct quote) and kicks out highly educated, hard working dad. Now kids that go to X's school hardly ever end up in blue collar workforce.<P>How do i tell her she doesn't walk the talk? without LB'ing, which would be nearly impossible!<P>i have some time to respond, but i need suggestions, since she can't see reality, or at least understand what is going on, or even agree with any of my predictions!<P>need lots of suggestions,<P>ggggrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!<P>and i agree with Kam that i have tremendous resentment build up, but how do i get past it when almost everything i say is rejected, but appears to come true? and rejected because i am not a professional educator, and only they know best?<P><BR>

I do not know what to say.....I guess we are in a similar since I posted a similar but more drastic scenrio regarding how my kids father continually undermines everything and does not enable the kids to be responsible for the one job they have...to do the best they can at school. This does not mean straight A's it can also include failing...but if the kid puts all effort in then one can hope for no more.<P>I suggest that you BATTLE for custody...it will be the only way to have any real say about all this. While their thinking and actions are so contrary to the kids long term well being (and instant gratification is then put to bed) you can do everything in your power to be the responsible parent with long term goals,but it is really all for nought unless you are able to implement this, without their input and manipulatiion. Try your best,it does not really matter whether the kids like you or not...you DO know what is best for them so act on this.<P>As you know my kidsare older.....and basically their behaviour to me and the world suggests they deserve to have their dad now be responsiblr (sic) for them.<BR>

WIFTY,<P>Is it possible that your wife is a bit defensive because you make it so obvious that you think she is incredibly lacking in intelligence, especially compared to you? I believe you have mentioned that she is teaching mathematics at one of the most prestigious prep schools in the country. I really doubt that she is stupid. <P>I know if your son doesn't get accepted, it would be very disappointing, but it doesn't doom him to a life of flipping burgers at McDonalds. Many children become excellent students only during, or after, adolescence. My oldest daughter did not really blossom until 14 - she is now doing very well at a college that is rated as very difficult to get accepted to. <P>What difference does it make if his friend's parents are not "highly educated?" Are his friends good kids? That is really all that matters. <P>I am probably "highly educated" by your definition - I graduated from a prestigious college, and I am working on my second master's degree - but if my children want to become carpenters or plumbers, that is fine with me, if that is what they want to do.<P>Perhaps I find this particularly upsetting because of my situation. My H was the first in his family to get a bachelor's degree. Although he was a highly paid white collar employee, he did not hold Yuppies in high regard. We gave up our white collar jobs to farm full time, because it was his dream. We both believed that the best way to raise children was on a farm. Unfortunately, he ended up having to give that up for financial reasons. Shortly after he left, our son wanted to go to vocational high school, but my H was adamantly opposed. Everything he used to believe went out the window. Not only did he object to our son socializing with kids who were not his "intellectual equal," but he made some comment about how he personally would rather have a job that allowed him to hire someone else do the hard, dirty work. This from someone who willingly chose farming as a career, the hardest, dirtiest, but most worthwhile job on earth. Now our son is in regular public school - where he is not happy.

Nellie, i don't respond any more when X talks about her "stuff", don't want any walls. we used to agree, just like you guys did, and after one school year, it completely disappeared. she now is more interested in partying than her kids. that's why she kicked me out, so that she could party, and i would have the kids, and she would have no responsibility?<P>my point is 1) that she says stuff to just placate herself and get me off her back at the moment, and gives me zero credibility for any of my thoughts. yet i have gone along with her answers after discussions.<P>and she is the one that talked about his going, but not providing the structure, not walking the walk. she talks the talk, but does not walk the walk, whether she talks with me or not. this is during the current school year of separation, and she fought me when i tried to provide structure to their learning when we were together.<P>what she is telling the child NOW is what i was telling the child since the beginning, and she used to criticize me. so why is are you thinking it is me? i haven't changed, i talk the talk and walk the walk. she never has.<P>??????????? i understand your words, i don't understand why you can't understand my frustration with her duplicity? <P>i am frustrated with her giving me zero credibility, and yet i end up being right. now she told the therapist with me there, she is in the present only, anything in the future is irrelevant. meaning she could care less what the results are of any of her actions! HELLO? is this selfish or WHAT!!<P>is this taking into account any responsibility of her words or actions??????????????<P>tom<P>

I so understand your frustration.<BR>Whi;lemy H has quoted the same garbage "she is in the present only, anything in the future is irrelevant."This HAS had the biggest consequences on my kids who want tolive the sameway because it is an easier way outthan forward thinking and proactive planning...for oneself andfor our children.<P>I agree with Nellie, though in that the kids should live their own lives...with whatever choices they make for wehat path they choose to follow....be it a carpenter or a rocket scientist, but not a bum! and that is my message to them.<P>Living for today is not what my 17 y o truly wants or he would not have made the decision in Dec to go to a new school,when I gace him the choice of getting a job, going to public school or going to a school which if he wanted to graduate he had the best chance with all the other supports I also put in place and told himhe would only have this opportunity if he got to school on time yada yada etc, He agreed and made the choice...it was not my choice to make but I was glad that he choose something that had some future for him. Then of course he was late for school and with his father's consent did not have to meet the consequences and take any responsibility for this and moved out!!!!<P>We need to empower our kids to make best life choices for who they are and to enable them not to close doors to their future that can still be open....that is our role as parents.<P>Frustration abounds in me right now...........<BR>Tom, ,when they are in this fog of "live for today as tomorrow you might die and will not have lived and done all the things that can be done for hedonistic pleasure" our kids will live in cnstant confusion in the ppolarity of parenting messages they receive.<BR>Either you have to accept this and be frustrated, let them all drown or you will have to take control of your kids lives.......<BR>For me I battled to teach them and parent them,but if they do not want I cannot battle any more...I am frustrated and now they can all live the way they find attractive! There really is nothing much else I can do short of killing myself for these kids,and this I will not do.

WILLBOK,<P>i think i am going to take my time, and write her a very thorough letter about what i see, and what the kids see from their view point. She can be most receptive to that.<P>I was at her house 7 hours saturday and 3 hours sunday. except for one comment by me, i either didn't say much, like nothing, or was fairly pleasant when i did speak. helped the kids with the games and activities. I vented here quickly when it happened to get it out of my system. by the time i had a friend call at 11 pm to chat, the frustration had gone.<P>now i need to write the letter!<P>and yes, i feel like they need to sink and nearly drown before they will be able to figure the value of swimming!<P>take a break yourself, somehow, to get recharged! maybe to let go, other than with your daughter, she is too young for that!<P>good luck!<P>glad to hear from you though, for awhile, i thought you were reconciling or something god awful like that!<P>tom<BR>

Tom,<BR>I appreciate your thinking of me.....what tangled webs we do weave though.<P>I can forgivemy H so many things...the bimbo, wanting what is not his financially,but NEVER what he has done and continues to do to these children. I could never reconcile with anyone who has singlehandedly caused my children so much pain. Speaking to him also reinforced why I nolonger have anthing in common. He cares about no-one or anything but his own pleasure....I could NEVER be with anyone like that...and this is who he has become. He is also very boring and a pathological liar! I try to communicte,but one cannot when their is no belief and the lies continue to flow with impunity.<P>My 20 y o phoned and while he stated that his father should not have let brother in door,maybe it is best for17 y o as dad simply does not care and will send him to military school or rehab. If kid needed that why did dad not communicate this to me in past 2 years since he wasgone!!!!!He opened his door to have control over kids life to send him away!!!Nothijng makes sense. 2y o also said there is never any food in that house...soI stated that this was not my proble, I tld himthat they continue to see thingsa which are wrong but by sayingnothing they are enabling father's behaviour which will continue for ever. If this is what they all want then that is their business now.<BR>No...I will not forsake d,but she is so difficult...she clearly knowsif she pulls the same stunt with dad,then I am gone as her parent!That I made clear....as it is too difficult fr me and kids to be tugged when he need them and then discarded when it suits him. <BR>What a %^$E&^R*&RT mess this is!<BR>

Just had a quick call from X.<P>At the therapists office, when i brought up MBTI types with the kids, she rolled her eyes, and basdically tried to down play my knowledge.<P>So this morning calls about a lecture on kids that she has, and how great it was. So i mention about the MBTI and where it was developed. and she said, "I have never poo-poohed you about it. i have used it and it works." then she says,<BR>"However, i don't want to use it with the kids. i don't want to put them in a box." that's the crap i get, the stuff i introduce works, she likes it, and uses it with others (in her job) but refuses to use it with the kids.<P>now does that mean we, and kids, are lower on her ladder of importance? it does to me. and she won't use it with the kids for her own fears, yet it says to me she doesn't really understand it. or she is spouting off again, trying to convince me that only her stuff is right, etc. and then telling me that she has never poo-poohed me about it.<P>i can tell you, she is one big oxy<B>moron</B>.<P>thanks for listening, this board is at least great for venting, so i don't have to vent back at her, but i would like to, and may some day in the future when the D is final!<P>tom

Just a thought. Could she be of the mindset that, no matter what it might be, anything you say is wrong? That nothing you say could conceivably be right? That you are the enemy and to be fought at all costs?<BR>

cinderella,<P>yes, you are right, and i have known that there are men issues in her life, not from bad experiences, but from negative examples set by the women in her family, and the wimpy men that stay married to them So undoubtably, it is FOO issues that I can't fix, nor will plan a or b, since i tried both of them, so maybe i couldn't die right either, to paraphase someone here <P>i just needed to vent, so that i didn't hold it in until i burst during the 9 yo d's birthday weekend. i just want her to take parenting seriously, and the only way i know how is to communicate via letter/email so that she doesn't have to save face by disagreeing with me.<P>its just a frustrating monday, <BR>and she just has a habit of adding to it<BR>by opening her mouth<P>tom<BR>

Tom,<P>Hey there.Don't have much to say.<P>Just stick to your guns and keep doing what you think is the best for your kido's!!<P>Thought you might be in need of one.<P>{{{{{{Tom}}}}}}<P>Deep breath,and try to have a better night.<P>Gina <P>------------------<BR>"If we deny love that is given to us,if we refuse to give love because we fear pain or loss,then our lives will be empty,our loss greater!"-----Anonymous----

(((((((((((((((Tom)))))))))))))))<P>Sorry you've had such a rough weekend. Trust me, I know what it's like to be unable to communicate with your children's other parent. <P>You did really well to not dump your anger and frustration on her. That usually backfires on you. At least it does for me.

I haven't been around much. I am sorry to see that things with the ex hasn't changed. I reread some of your older posts about her relationship with the kids. I tend to agree with Cinderella. I think I said that to you once before. It seems like she is fighting you in everyway possible just because it is you. I don't think there is a remedy for that.<P>One observation, and please don't take offense to this, but kids (and we will consider your ex a child for the sake of this argument) often "rebel" against authority figures or those who think they know best. Some people will jump off a bridge just to prove another wrong. It is foolish pride that spawns this attitude, and I think maybe your wife has some of those same issues. THat said, your very evident attitude that "I know best" might be causing her to rebel. You have very distinct views on what kind of influence your kids deserve to have, and rightly so, but how much of that is tunnel vision? I am kind of playing devil's advocate here, it seems, but maybe you should look at that. <P>

gsd,<P>i'm not sure i know best, but my task as a parent is to provide the best structure and opportunities for my kids.<BR>And it is also my responsibility to bring up issues and opportunities for us to address.<P>Now this also means discussing issues, and she has acknowledged that if i disagree with her, she shuts down.<BR>and alot of what has happened is that i stopped talking with her, because as soon as i brought up an issue, different answer, multiple view points, she would just stop talking.<P>but what also burns my butt, is that she will dismiss stuff I say at a counselor's office, and then insist that she has NEVER poo-pooed me on it. and she rad harley's books, and dismissed them as sexist, and not valid.<P>hey, i have gone along with her viewpoints most of the time, because she gets more "right" when i push it, so either i fight, and get farther away, or go her way, and hope she sees the answer before it is too late. doesn't matter that i am right usually, i was wrong twice, and therefore am not to be listened to at all. so now, she is doing it more and more to establish complete dependent relationship to kids.<P>Her problem is, she can't see past the immediate present, and has not anticipation of what is going to happen, or wants to change anything in the present for a better future. we used to agree on stuff, but i think she was just not wanting to disagree. so now she has flipped to the other side, just disagreeing completely.<P>she uses it for control, i have seen it before. i have seen her criticize her boss as "too old" and should be removed, and then when he has screwed up and is called in front of his superiors, comes to his defense. nothing is permanent, and very little of what happens today, or is said today, is valid tomorrow. and it is very, very frustrating.<P>i swear it is the BPD stuff, and one of the questions is, "do you wonder if you were at the same place as the BPD?"<BR>because the events and memory changes to suit the current discussion.<P>i just needed to vent because i didn't want to have it stewing for the d's birthday.<P>oh yeah, if i read it, she dismisses it. if she hears it in a lecture or from an expert, she believes it. so it is her style of learning and accepting knowledge based upon how it is delivered.<P>As another example, we introduced email to my FIL 5 years ago. he poo pooed it, also complained it was expensive and too difficult. after a lecture at his volunteer job 5 years later, email is the best thing since sliced bread. FOO if you ask me. can't change it either.<P>BTW, it makes sense that she picked a non college educated blue collar guy as her OM, since she can discuss the day to day events, and that's it, nothing deep or conceptual, or planning for the future.<P>cinderella, you get it! <P>thanks, <BR>tom

Just got back from family birthday party.<P>12 yo son has had a problem of continually eating with his hands. We have admonished him when he does.<P>tonight, X served me roast beef from the platter with her hands.<P>I wonder where it comes from ?

WIFTT, Just wanted to jump aboard to commiserate. I also have a similar problem communicating with my H...soon to be my X by me!!<P>I do believe it is a control issue. Some people seem to be born victims. Always have to have an enemy, coz it can't be them.<P>Communicating with that type of person when YOU are THE enemy is an art... I haven't mastered it, but have found some techniques that work slightly....or at least allow you NOT to be their victim.<P>When my H begins to turn a discussion into an argument...by saying..."you want to have an argument" I reply."surely you don't think when someone offers a differing opinion that it is an argument"<P>Or I say "I'm not arguing I'm stating a fact".<P>Calmly...<P>My H is also behaving as the do as I say, and not as I do parent to our kids. He is constantly berating them, making them jump through hoops...act responsible...not lie...etc..when he himself is not acting that way. (Denied having an affair...until she became pregnant and now has his 2 month old son)<P>Interestingly enough, they can become kind of like the Emperor in the Emperor's New Cloths. They think they are living in some cloistered off castle with finely made cloths when in fact they are naked.<P>I've also used a lot of his "line" right back on him when he starts projecting onto me or the kids. Now he is saying that I am being spiteful because I want to move with the kids closer to family. I tell him "the kids will be fine" I remind him that he told me when he moved out that he "wasn't involved with them anyway and that they would be fine if they saw him one time a year".<P>But like the rest of "them" my H seems to want to have it all. To change the rules ONE DAY and expect us all to follow along. I told him "We're not getting any younger" just like he said and that We need to start a new life and have new memories too. It pretty much quiets him.<P>I pray that one day my H will see that even when he changes everything else in his life..his cloths, his hobbies, the food he eats, the way he cooks, his wife, his kids.... he will be the same and he'll realize that what's missing is in side of himself. But I can't bank on it.<P>Another thing you might try is what some people call the 180, which is to do exactly the opposite of what you used to do. Just start agreeing with her. It would take practice though, because the dance we seem to do in communicating really gets to be a persistent pattern. And some people just can't SEE beyond themselves. The forest for the trees thing.<P>All I know is that we might as well hit ourselves over the head with a 2x4 before we'll ever get them to see our side of it. <P>

thanks,<P>i have tried everything, including agreeing, but it gets/got me nowhere. sometimes, she would say that she doesn't want to argue, so i have given in sometimes, and sometimes not. if i don't give in, she gets the irritation look on her face, but i just ignore it. she is so non-direct, it is unbelievable. she called me up the other day to ask me if i would forgo my parenting time for her parents. now, if she had offered a swap, i would have considered it, but she doesn't like to swap, but she likes me to just give in. I said no, and she just got mad and hung up.<P>i have yet to mention that to her. i thnk i will include it in the letter. she was so needy to have the kids before we went to disney, i felt so bad for her. she wanted this, and then has to hold onto them as long as possible. last summer, she couldn't even let me have them for the whole vacation period to which she agreed. called me all kinds of names, yelling, etc. takes the loss of kids personally. of course, in her life, her voluntary job is #1 priority, regular job and kids are tied for second, her daily weightlifting and exercise is third, and i was fourth.<P>and when she told me she wanted out, she kept telling me she was empty inside, and it is all about her. she wasn't kidding! not much there for me, my head doctor told me there was nothing there also. even told me to see a lawyer.<P>ah well, i just had to get the frustration out somehow, and this board is great for that!<P>you might want to read about BPD, borderline personality disorder. that contains alot of these symptoms.<P>good luck<BR>tom

WIFTT, My H and your wife sound like twins. My H also feels empty inside, and this is all about him too!!! Too bad he didn't tell OW this... Ow is is assistant coworker who knew me and my kids well. Like I said she took it upon herself to let the whole staff who also knew me and th e kids well that this was all about me!!! Kids and I can't even go into the office and haven't for the year he has been out... would upset OW too much!!!!<P>work is also the #1 priority for my H. It is bizaar and not anything I am attracted to. He fills up his time with work, and hockey. I think even OW comes in third except for the coworking stuff. I don't think she cares though coz she has her own problems.... <P>My H is seeing a counselor and has been for the year he has been gone, but I don't see ANY improvement. I finally got him to go to the kids counselor with the two older ones. He went because I put the kabosh on the carte blanche visitation (coming over every day to briefly see kids or drive them to their events) He wanted that, but the kids counselor said it wasn't good for the kids. So he stormed into her to find out why and then asked the kids, particularly son if he felt like he (son) couldn't play with his friends if he was waiting around for him (dad)...son welled up and didn't say too much, so the counselro answered for him.<P>Now my H is punishing the kids with more coldness. Very business like. Talks to them for about a minute. Not interested in them. I feel so sorry for my kids, particularly since he was NOT this way for most of their lives. Now he says "i've changed" like that's normal for a 45 year old adult!!!! It's a shame he always has a safety cushion because he needs to hit rock bottom.<P>The kids counselor mentioned a few personality disorders after meeting with him. She is also concerned about how his affect is effecting the kids. She wanted me to try to get him to a psychiatrist rather than a psychologist (meds). She suggested I do it via the lawyer....as in wanting to know about mental history like you would like to know about physical health history. It just doesn't seem worth it. My H can look like a good guy by day (by night he doesn't sleep, so I assume his rationalizations clash with REALITY )<P>I think I'll be better off just taking my kids away from this mess and starting over. I wish he would get REAL help but I can't make him. And I can't make the kids be responsible for him either. UG!!!<P>Vent away... It actually helps me to know someone else is experiencing this.

Tootrusting<P>LMAO! counselors!!! X doesn't believe in them for her, but for anyone else, it is very worthwhile. IL's are totally dysfunctional, and refuse to go to counseling. they are just fine! we did marriage counseling once, 10 years ago, and X said we did it once, once is enough.<P>X was in inner turmoil, after suspected PA. so i said she needed to go to talk to someone. she finally agreed. came back and said she only needed 3 appointments to be fixed. after the third one, she said, "i told the counselor about how you weren't here for me for the last 10 years, especially when the kids were born 10 years ago, and she said we have to separate. she said your counselor is wrong!"<P>now 3 sessions solves everything? wow! we are divorcing over what happened 10 years ago? wow! we are divorcing because of money? (too much of it?) wow! we are divorcing because my success makes you feel bad? wow! <P>sorry, this is beyond plan a if she has these hangups and FOO total beliefs. <P>However, i think that you should probably divorce and not live in the same town, but not very far away, and giving H minimal time may work out, but minimal time also creates the ability to be nice for short periods of time, and really confuse kids as to why not go live with Dad?<P>it really sux, but these mildly mentally ill people really do a number on kids, and really is a difficult road to travel.<P>good luck<BR>tom<BR>

Hey Tom, I'm moving very far away. Now I'm telling him that this is for the best. I am a changed person. I ended my career after going to school for 8 years...to be a SAHM because of his schedule and yes we both agreed upon it.<P>I had three kids (family was very important to him) and I moved three times for his different jobs which for an MD is unusual...He always had complaints about his partners.<P><BR>Now he has an affair with his assistant...whom he treats as his partner..("she's the best"). She is FINALLY the partner that will do whatever he wants...including salivating over him, ingratiating herself to him just to "get him"... H is very naive.<P>Anyway...SO WHAT...that's what I say. Their relationship is a cliche!! If it was just that, I probably would stay...but it is more...he is just too different and takes his sadness and emptyness out on the kids. You know, it would be hard enough for the kids and I if he came home one day and said I've fallen out of love...we need to D and then D and then remarried and had another family.... However, it wasn't even like that... It was bizaarness, paranoia, secrecy, lies, horrible behavior towards me and the kids...... and then when he had to come clean...it was simply "I've changed the rules"...you know..entitlement. Boy... I really feel for him... and wish him well, but I can't help him.<P>I have gotton myself back in school and am doing very well. I've gotton a life and am happy. I do not feel like a victim and will not allow this event to make or break me or the kids. I';ve kept his "secret" from the kids, despite the blatant way they go around this small town, kind of thumbing their noses at the rest of us..."we're important...we can do whatever we want"...blech. <P>But.... We have a life too. I'm moving closer to the few family members I have (1) and friends and going to a place where I can quickly get my career back on track at age 45! and we will move on ahead while he wallows in his victimhood