I'll try my best to include his perspective here too.<P>He came home, with the expresso as promised. Special treat for me..remember we live in the coffee state. I was hoping that after calling him back and apologizing this was his truce offerring. Well, he sat the coffee down and walked away. I suppose it was MY expectation that we could talk, work out a peace treaty so to speak. Keep in mind how sensitive I feel around him.<P>When he walked off I felt hurt. Went to my room and cried. I have swallowed my pride over and over again, looking for peace of some sort, yet my expectations were that he would want to talk to me. Yes, I know, I cannot have any expectations at this point. He brought the coffee back over to our room, and asked if I were coming out. I said no, I dont want to be around him. Not true, I just couldn't stand his indifferrence and the fact that all he could do was bring a coffee and think everything was okay with me.<P>He played with the oldest while I prayed and pondered. Our middle D, who is 8 has been having the toughest time here. As some of you'all may recall she is the one who said she wants to beat the OW up. She is also very sensitive and emotional, like her ma. They were in the kitchen talking and she has been pretty much ignoring him and glaring at him. This makes him mad, he says I have turned her away and refuses to believe that I tell the kids that their dad does love them. Anyways, she says something sassy to him, and he hits her. (spanks) Then he tells her that if she keeps this crap up he doesnt have to talk to her at all.<P>At this point I came in and told her to go to her room. Told him that she is crying out to him, that he should hit her for that nor threaten her either. Who is the adult here I said? Of course he bacame mad and it was shouting. I hit low and said that he obviously is not willing to work for peace at all. That I still cant work due to him and his priorites being his school and homework. If he doesnt care about paying the bills why should I? Let them foreclose on the house darnit. I am leaving anyway, why should I care? <P>I went back to the bedroom and fumed. Came out later after the kids were in bed and told him that I dont see any effort on his behalf to live peacably, I will leave soon.<BR>Go ahead I said, change my mind, because at this point I cant take anymore at all. He said that he would be willing to take the kids to school every day, be here when they get home (so far 0 sacrifice) take them to the park on the weekends, and help around the house a little more. (Hell, I work, yet still do 75% of everything-cleaning, finances, yardwork, etc)<P>I asked what has changed in your heart to live with me peacfully for the next 10 weeks? He says look at today, I cooked dinner, brought you coffee, played with the oldest. HELLO??? <P>Aren't these things normally done by a loving father? What please tell me has changed in your heart right now, to keep us from leaving ASAP? you still blew me off today, you still hit and threatened your daughter who is hurtinh badly.<P>He said nothing. No change. So I said fine..I have tried and tried with you.. Apologized for reacting to you stepping on me. Apologized for even reacting when I do a no call/no show at work because you dont show up. Peace has to be a 2 way street here. I cannot go on like this, if you truely want us to stay you will make some concessions to stop sh**ing on me. Nope, no go.<P>JL will prob say that I have painted myself into another corner. True, but he is so stubborn he wont even come down off his high horse for the kids. Sorry, but I do feel very protective of them. I dont have much room for grace when he threatens them. Sure he will say that he has the right to talk to them however he wants. You know the other day the middle one told her friends outside she doesnt have a dad anymore. Oldest told dad, and he got mad at her. Told her she cant stay the night tonight at that friends house because all she will do is talk about him. <P>I dont get it at all!!!<P>HELP!<BR>Dara

Hi... I'm not familiar with your whole story but it sure sounds like "Dad" needs to grow up emotionally. I mean if he's letting an 8 year old acting out get to him enough that he banishes her emotionally, well, that's sick. He needs to GET OVER HIMSELF!<P>But, that doesn't help you in your efforts to try to live peacably with him. How to live at peace with someone who is adversarial... that is the question. No easy answers, I'm afraid...<P>Hang in there... keep pouring it out here at MB! But more importantly, pour it out to God, if that is alignment with you value system. Blessings to you and your hurtin' kids...<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Thank you for responding.<P>I thought he was being selfish also.<BR>But he believes that I have turned the kids away from him. He thinks everything is a by-product of my manipulating. <P>Out of discouragement I stopped praying. Things went from bad to worse. The old Dara reared up again, and he called me on it. When I asked him to come to bed last night so the kids wouldnt see him on the couch he called me manic.<P>He doesnt understand the rollercoaster ride of emotions I feel. This is why I love this site. Oh, what to do what to do.<P>I still throughout all this see myself a nothing but a failure. Lost marraige, heck I cant even focus on the kids right now as I am in so much pain.<p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited April 13, 2001).]

Dear Dara, <P>You have a rare and beautiful name, kind of exotic.<P>I have been wondering how you are doing and you sound like about a couple of weeks behind me. That could be a good thing. See I am going to try to help you find your sanity because the next few weeks are going to be rough. <P>Now I would like to ask you, what do you see when you look in your H's eyes when he is talking to you? Anger, sadness, hurt, lost look? What do you see in his eyes when you are talking to him? More anger, disgust, lost look, blank stares? <P>Sometimes the look in their eyes will tell you how much you can share or give them. This includes what your children do as well. Let me share why. Last week H called from his cell crying. H doesn't normally cry, in fact that is one of his problem - no emotional outlet keeps it all bottled up. Is that a man thing? <P>H is crying because I sent him an e-mail explaining that his hanging up on my calls were rude. Those calls were made for business reasons (finances, etc.) and some of them were at his request. Yet, when a question was asked it would take up to 5 calls to get an answer because he had an attitude and kept hanging up!!!!! <P>H read that e-mail, said he finally put himself in my shoes and saw the pain he was causing. He called to tell me that and promise that he would not treat me that way again. This is hard for him since OWs habits require that he treat me that way. Then he said that was all he could handle and needed to end the call. I said ok and hung up. <P>The point is that, he 'put himself in my place and felt my pain'. WOW!!!! Since then he has actually cried a few more times (that's when I posted my waffle big vent post a few days ago). Yes, I was mad at him and made him cry more. <P>I may get slammed for saying that but I need to continue. After that vent and I unloaded not all but a lot of how I was feeling about H and his ongoing relationship with OW (which by the way is on shaky ground), I told H that I needed to see actions that matched words. H came back 4 days later and asked to come back 'again'. This time, his eyes looked 'human', not that alien lost angry blank stare look, but actually human with a smile. The words sounded nice. I decided I needed to stand my ground. This is where I am today. <P>You know I was not going to post this since I feel very vulnerable right now. But for your sake, I wanted to share with you that your H sounds angry even with his children. He needs to think about his actions. <P>You and the children will be hurt but may need to keep some distance and let him feel the results of his actions. Comfort your family, they need it. Be there for each other. Let your H dwell on his actions, it may take a few days for it to sink in. The fog causes delayed reactions in many of them. <P>Watch his eyes, when they begin to clear and look human, share with him your needs. I may start a post on this subject to get more input. In the meantime, take care. <P>L.

OK! Dara,<P>This is not good. Let me offer you a little different perspective. Everything you did last night is what you have always done, threaten to leave, what a divorce, hurt feelings, etc. Only new wrinkle is the kids are involved. So let me try and unravel this a bit for you.<P>Let's start with you. Why are you so controlling? Do you understand this about yourself? It is so important because here is a news flash for you. <B>You are in control, but it isn't doing any good.</B><P>I know you are looking at the screen saying: what the heck is that guy talking about? What you haven't figured out yet, is that you are in full control of your life. You are a nurse. You can work anywhere in this country you want to live. You can always find a reasonably good paying job anywhere, people are sick everywhere. So you have complete control of where you live, you can support yourself and yes your children. You can be happy, you can be sad, you can be in love, you can be out of love.<P>You more than most people in this country have an extraordinary amount of control over your life.<P>So why are you trying to control your H? <B>Who you cannot control and never should have tried to control. </B><BR>This is the source of your marriage problems all along and continues to be. <P>So lets take a brief look at things and I will give you my guess as to why you want to control your H. I hope that you can correct me and we can get to the bottom of this because it is so important to you.<P>You married very young apparently because home life wasn't very good. Why did you need to marry? You wanted someone to love you, look after you, you wanted protection from life because you knew you didn't know how to survive at your age. Your H provided that for you. So why control him? Because you never trusted that he was there for you. You have always thought that he would fail you as your family apparently did in your eyes. So you needed to control him so he wouldn't fail you, would protect you, would love you.<P>How am I doing so far??<P>Now if I am right, the irony was that your need to control him and yes even test him, has finally led him to do what you fear most, leave you. <P>So what are you going to do? Leave go where you can get "support". Dara, you don't need support. You are capable of earning a living, taking care of your children, and making a life anywhere you want, but you are running home. You have a house there, but you could sell it and use the money to live where ever you want.<P>Where am I going here. Well you know your H has expressed the desire for a divorce. Your solution is to run home, in the hopes, I suspect, that he will miss you and the kids and follow you there. You are trying to control him again.<P>Now, what is going to happen if you do go to Tx? One of two things:<P>1. Your H will miss the kids and come down there, but he will resent that he lost the chance for an education and that you are controlling him again. Your children will have the kind of H you are seeing now. Angry, frustrated, and short with the children, not good.<P>2. He will never come back to you, and your children will have lost a father forever. Further, since you claim you love him you will have lost the love of your life. The man that stood by you through all of your tests of him, helped you get your education, and actually helped you so that you are in CONTROL of your life.<P>I would say that neither of those choices are very good, what do you think?<P>So let me suggest something. Plan on staying there while he finishes his education. Let him help with the children, help with the finances and let him have time to heal. Let yourself have time to heal. Dara you can work there, you can make a living there, you can help your children have a more balanced upbringing there, and most importantly you can learn to love yourself, your life, and even a "real" H there.<P>Your H has many problems. He is no saint, but in most cases since you married him, he has tried to do his best. That man is still there but he is hurting from what you did, and from what he did/is doing. He needs to see you in control. Yes, thats right, in control of your life. If you two can negotiate a truce here, and stand back and realize that you are both finally adults who are only together because you love each other, not because of chronic dependence, I suspect you will see him differently and he will see you differently.<P>This will take time Dara, not a week or a month. You need to grow and heal. Your first priority is the children. I would recommend that you sit down with H and say I am not going anywhere until you are done with college. However, I really need help with the children and a place for them to live. Beyond that I will take care of myself and you take care of yourself.<P>See what he says. See if the two of you can start by just loving the children. Then maybe you can becomre real friends on an equal footing, and then ... who knows. You two just may find that buried under all of the pain, insecurity, hurt feelings, and fear is LOVE for each other and even Respect for each other.<P>You won't find that out, running to TX. You won't find that out trying to control him. You will only find out when you take control of your life.<P>That is what I am thinking Dara. What are you thinking?<P>God Bless,<P>JL

His eyes always tell me how open he is. When I got back up last night, seeing him just playing with the computer I asked if he was finding any answers in his thoughts or the computer. He said no, and had these eyes filled with pain.<P>Later on the couch as I sat on the table talking to him, I told him that I saw a man hurting deeply. Anguish is what I saw in his eyes. But yet he too stubborn to take a chance with me. Willing to risk it ALL, as I told him, to turn from everything he ever believed in. Because he sees himself as a fool for giving me a chance again.<P>I really think it has alot to do with him losing status as breadwinner last year and going to school. At school he is stroked and realized that he is desireable. Hence an EA. <BR>But I cannot save the world heck I cant even get over my pain when he cont. to reject me. I do feel like giving up on him, painful as it may be. It is becoming easier by the day to resent him and his choices. How than can I save my marraige in this state?

Dear LAIG,<P>Because in order to save him, you have to let him go and feel better about himself. Just let him know that one day, when he is ready to talk about someone other than himself (like you and the children), that you will be available to listen. NOTE: NOT talk, just listen. <P>That may bring him comfort. It may be long distance listening. Heck don't they seem like they are far away now?<BR>But it will be a listening ear. Then let it go. You know it could only be for a short while. <P>Letting go of the need to control his decisions is hard but may be necessary for him to heal. My H never lived on his own, went from moms house to ours. While that was not a big deal for me, it was a bit traumatic for him. Now H knows that living on his own is not what he wants. He now says he never wanted it, but he did say it just 4 months ago. See how they can change? <P>I am not promising your H will change for all the good right now, nor am I saying he will come back. But give him the chance to see himself. Just be a friend right now, he may not be able to handle more than that. <P>In the meantime, love your children and yourself. We will be here for you. Sometimes we need to be shaken up a bit so that we don't fall into the pity pot. I appreciate the kind but firm words from those who know. Swallow a bit of pride and know we are all pulling for you and your family.<P>L.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>OK! Dara,<P>This is not good. Let me offer you a little different perspective. Everything you did last night is what you have always done, threaten to leave, what a divorce, hurt feelings, etc. Only new wrinkle is the kids are involved. So let me try and unravel this a bit for you.<P>Let's start with you. Why are you so controlling? Do you understand this about yourself? It is so important because here is a news flash for you. You are in control, but it isn't doing any good.</B><P>I know you are looking at the screen saying: what the heck is that guy talking about? What you haven't figured out yet, is that you are in full control of your life. You are a nurse. You can work anywhere in this country you want to live. You can always find a reasonably good paying job anywhere, people are sick everywhere. So you have complete control of where you live, you can support yourself and yes your children. You can be happy, you can be sad, you can be in love, you can be out of love.<P>You more than most people in this country have an extraordinary amount of control over your life.<P>So why are you trying to control your H? <B>Who you cannot control and never should have tried to control. </B><BR>This is the source of your marriage problems all along and continues to be. <P>So lets take a brief look at things and I will give you my guess as to why you want to control your H. I hope that you can correct me and we can get to the bottom of this because it is so important to you.<P>You married very young apparently because home life wasn't very good. Why did you need to marry? You wanted someone to love you, look after you, you wanted protection from life because you knew you didn't know how to survive at your age. Your H provided that for you. So why control him? Because you never trusted that he was there for you. You have always thought that he would fail you as your family apparently did in your eyes. So you needed to control him so he wouldn't fail you, would protect you, would love you.<P>How am I doing so far??<BR>Now if I am right, the irony was that your need to control him and yes even test him, has finally led him to do what you fear most, leave you. <P>So what are you going to do? Leave go where you can get "support". Dara, you don't need support. You are capable of earning a living, taking care of your children, and making a life anywhere you want, but you are running home. You have a house there, but you could sell it and use the money to live where ever you want.<P>Where am I going here. Well you know your H has expressed the desire for a divorce. Your solution is to run home, in the hopes, I suspect, that he will miss you and the kids and follow you there. You are trying to control him again.<P>Now, what is going to happen if you do go to Tx? One of two things:<P>1. Your H will miss the kids and come down there, but he will resent that he lost the chance for an education and that you are controlling him again. Your children will have the kind of H you are seeing now. Angry, frustrated, and short with the children, not good.<P>2. He will never come back to you, and your children will have lost a father forever. Further, since you claim you love him you will have lost the love of your life. The man that stood by you through all of your tests of him, helped you get your education, and actually helped you so that you are in CONTROL of your life.<P>I would say that neither of those choices are very good, what do you think?<P>So let me suggest something. Plan on staying there while he finishes his education. Let him help with the children, help with the finances and let him have time to heal. Let yourself have time to heal. Dara you can work there, you can make a living there, you can help your children have a more balanced upbringing there, and most importantly you can learn to love yourself, your life, and even a "real" H there.<P>Your H has many problems. He is no saint, but in most cases since you married him, he has tried to do his best. That man is still there but he is hurting from what you did, and from what he did/is doing. He needs to see you in control. Yes, thats right, in control of your life. If you two can negotiate a truce here, and stand back and realize that you are both finally adults who are only together because you love each other, not because of chronic dependence, I suspect you will see him differently and he will see you differently.<P>This will take time Dara, not a week or a month. You need to grow and heal. Your first priority is the children. I would recommend that you sit down with H and say I am not going anywhere until you are done with college. However, I really need help with the children and a place for them to live. Beyond that I will take care of myself and you take care of yourself.<P>See what he says. See if the two of you can start by just loving the children. Then maybe you can becomre real friends on an equal footing, and then ... who knows. You two just may find that buried under all of the pain, insecurity, hurt feelings, and fear is LOVE for each other and even Respect for each other.<P>You won't find that out, running to TX. You won't find that out trying to control him. You will only find out when you take control of your life.<P>That is what I am thinking Dara. What are you thinking?<P>God Bless,<P>JL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your assessment of my need for control is accurate. I spent the majority of my childhood alone. At the age of 8 I made the front page of the newspaper for being the first in our county for using 911. Two armed men broke into our home and robbed us. So this all stems from a very young age, the look out for yourself attitude.<P>He has always been my rock, pulling me out of situations that I couldnt handle. I have always trusted his opinion. I can accept his need to recover and heal. JL, I find it very difficult to live with him knowing that he DOES NOT want me, and has another person. This is not a control issue, it is simply because I love him.<P>Yes, by going to TX I do hope it will give him the time he needs alone w/o pressure from me. I honest desire is that he would realize that I love him and I too want a new start. This I cannot push, he needs to make up his mind that he wants it too.<P>He needs room JL. He no longer pushes for divorce, just seperation, "time apart" says it is needed. Has even said that in time he may be able to work on us again, but no not now. Yes, staying would stabilize things for the kids, and him. I NEED to take control of MY life, as you said. To become an independent person and not be so codependent on him to make me happy. To grow up so to speak.<P>In my pain I cannot see that happening here. I see him, and it hurts. It hurts to look in his eyes and know that he has chosen to put me aside. It hurts to know that he will not let me meet his needs, that he is getting it somewhere else. Maybe I am rationalizing, But I do think a seperation is needed. To give him space he so desperatly craves, and give me time to grow up. My choices? <BR>Stay here, for him ,and the kids. To allow him to be around them. Or leave, and get the support I do need from family. The kids are very close to their Gma's, and right now they need some safety. In my my emotional state I dont see it coming from me. Nor him after yesterday.<P>Yes I do regret feeling as if I have to "run away." I am wanting a safe place for ME. To move on w/o the constant pain of his rejection.<P>What do you think?<BR>

Oh Dara -<P>Expectations, manipulation and selfish demands will be your undoing!!<P>I'm gonna be tough again - I'm sorry to have to do it, and I sure hope that if I'm reading this wrong, someone can jump in here and say so!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I suppose it was MY expectation that we could talk, work out a peace treaty so to speak. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, you are absolutely right. He brought you coffee, a considerate and even loving gesture. You EXPECTED more than was there.<P>Which is why:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When he walked off I felt hurt. Went to my room and cried. I have swallowed my pride over and over again, looking for peace of some sort....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When you have expectations, you end up hurting yourself. That's exactly what happened. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He brought the coffee back over to our room, and asked if I were coming out. I said no, I dont want to be around him. Not true, I just couldn't stand his indifferrence and the fact that all he could do was bring a coffee and think everything was okay with me.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why did you lie to him about how you felt? This is a blatant example of manipulation. <P>I doubt he thought everything was "ok" - but geez, give the poor guy a break.<P>He came home, AND he did something nice, but it wasn't good enough for you - and you basically ended up flinging his niceness back in his face because it wasn't what you wanted or expected. <P>AND you tried to yank on his emotions to get him to do what you wanted.<P>I'm going to go out on a limb here...you haven't swallowed your pride one bit. This is all about your pride, and needing to be right, needing to be the victim, and needing to still control him. You want him back, but only on YOUR terms.<P>Dara, you are going to lose your marriage if you can not stop this!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>At this point I came in and told her to go to her room. Told him that she is crying out to him, that he should hit her for that nor threaten her either. Who is the adult here I said? Of course he bacame mad and it was shouting. I hit low <B><read: lovebusted></B>and said that he obviously is not willing to work for peace at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dara, have your read the love busting articles on this site about disrespectful judgements? <P>You may not like your H's treatment of your daughter. But if he is not abusing her, then he has the right to parent her, and have a relationship with her, without your permission or control. That's his business. Yeah, I know, its easy for me to say - but I am forced to do the same thing with my H. I *do* have concerns for my kids welfare, so I do keep a very close rein on things, BUT if they are not harmed physically, and he is not screaming abusively at them - I stay OUT of his relationship with them. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That I still cant work due to him and his priorites being his school and homework. If he doesnt care about paying the bills why should I? Let them foreclose on the house darnit. I am leaving anyway, why should I care? <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ok, so he didn't fall to his knees and capitulate to your demands for "peace". So then you started threatening him...<P>Do you see what I am talking about with regards to manipulation?<P>You have to let this man GO, or you are going to drive him running from you.<P>You both have choices and free will here. He is choosing not to help with the bills for whatever reason. You can do the same thing. Up until now, you have <B>chosen</B> not to. It's your choice, he isn't forcing you to pay those bills. You <B>could</B> choose not to pay them either, consequences be damned. So why are you so angry? (This is a rhetorical question, I do understand the WHY of your anger, I'm just pointing out that its very nonproductive and hurting YOU.)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Go ahead I said, change my mind, because at this point I cant take anymore at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now the manipulation is totally blatant. How does this make your H feel safe?? You are beating him over the head with your demands!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>He said that he would be willing to take the kids to school every day, be here when they get home (so far 0 sacrifice) take them to the park on the weekends, and help around the house a little more. (Hell, I work, yet still do 75% of everything-cleaning, finances, yardwork, etc)<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ok, let me get this...you have complained here repeatedly that you need him involved with the kids, so that you can work to pay the bills. <P>So he offered to help more - but that's not enough for you because he isn't sacrificing enough for you????? It's not enough if he doesn't feel some sort of pain?<P>I totally understand where you are coming from. My H was never supportive or helpful. He brought home a paycheck,and considered his job done. But, I see a man here that is trying to make tentative overtures to you, and you are slapping it all away because its not enough, not painful enough, or whatever.<P>You want it all on your terms or not at all.<P>Don't you see how disrespectful this is?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I asked what has changed in your heart to live with me peacfully for the next 10 weeks? He says look at today, I cooked dinner, brought you coffee, played with the oldest. HELLO??? <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And where did you tell him how happy you were to see him, how glad he came home, and where did you say THANK YOU for dinner and the coffee?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>He said nothing. No change. So I said fine..I have tried and tried with you.. Apologized for reacting to you stepping on me. Apologized for even reacting when I do a no call/no show at work because you dont show up. Peace has to be a 2 way street here. I cannot go on like this, if you truely want us to stay you will make some concessions to stop sh**ing on me. Nope, no go.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So until he offers peace on your terms, and capitulates to your demands, you are going to wage war on him???<P>Let me repeat your words back to you: Peace has to be a 2 way street!!! <P>He's making concessions...where are yours??<P>Dara, do you have any of the Harley books? If you can, please go read Give&Take, and the LoveBuster book ASAP!!<P>I'm really worried for you.<P>You are so focused on what you AREN'T getting that you aren't seeing any efforts at all on your H's part!!<P>Where is YOUR change? Where is your plan A???<P>Do you want to be right, do you want to be the victim, or do you want to be married???<P>((hugs)) BR

Wow, JL, I just finished reading your response to Dara. I hope that one day I can learn the finesse of saying things without being so blunt! And you had such great positive advice for her!<P>Dara, this is a very wise man, who is giving you some fantastic advice. <P>Please listen to him - he's absolutely 110% right!!!<P>(((hugs))) BR

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>I went back to the bedroom and fumed. Came out later after the kids were in bed and told him that I dont see any effort on his behalf to live peacably, I will leave soon.<BR>Go ahead I said, change my mind, because at this point I cant take anymore at all. He said that he would be willing to take the kids to school every day, be here when they get home (so far 0 sacrifice) take them to the park on the weekends, and help around the house a little more. (Hell, I work, yet still do 75% of everything-cleaning, finances, yardwork, etc)<P>I asked what has changed in your heart to live with me peacfully for the next 10 weeks? He says look at today, I cooked dinner, brought you coffee, played with the oldest. HELLO??? <P>Aren't these things normally done by a loving father?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dara, it's no wonder you see pain in your husband's eyes. This poor guy <I>almost</I> has the patience of a saint. You actually pick fights with him and then accuse <I>him</I> of making no effort to live peaceably. Here he is, already insecure, and yet he keeps coming back for more, while you lie to him about your own feelings, and play him like a yo-yo.<P>Here he made an effort to be a loving husband and father, <I>which is what you say you want</I>, but somehow you managed not to notice, because you were so caught up in your own feelings. So you lit into him again, and he tried to defend himself by pointing out what he had done. The worst of it is, you actually <I>dismissed</I> his efforts as meaningless because he was "only" doing what a normal loving father would do. No, I take that back. The worst of it is, you were <I>affronted</I> by his efforts instead of giving him approval for trying.<P>Can't you see what you are doing? Your husband gave you what you asked for, and you threw it in his face. It seems to me that you are doing an excellent job of establishing beyond any doubt that nothing he does, no effort he makes, will ever satisfy you.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrambleRose:<BR><B>Wow, JL, I just finished reading your response to Dara. I hope that one day I can learn the finesse of saying things without being so blunt! And you had such great positive advice for her!<P>Dara, this is a very wise man, who is giving you some fantastic advice. <P>Please listen to him - he's absolutely 110% right!!!<P>(((hugs))) BR</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes I do respect his opinion. H is here now cant talk, will come back a bit later. Thank you for your honesty. I do need not only a kick in the head but in the pants too.<P>I am becoming weary. I have never had to fight so hard for what I want before. I t always came quite easily with manipulation. I dont know how to do this, hence me coming here. I do appreciate your straight forwardness. Life lessons learned hard. In my weariness I feel like giving up, walking away and letting him trash this marraige. This is a VERY difficult internal strugglke for me. I am learning however, as the screename implies. I am just plain tired now. Three months of this.<P>I will check back in a bit. thank you BR for telling me the truth, and Orchid and JL. I have a lot of growing up to do.<P>

Dara,<P>I identify so much with many of the things you are saying. I hear the hurt that you feel when you look at him and you think of him looking at another woman, instead of to you. But I also hear JL's words about control.<P>I was fortunate to be able to move home near my folks and still be close enough for the kids to be with dad often. Yes, I needed that support, and there is nothing wrong with that for you either. But can you get it another way? Can you call, write, email your family. Can you find another support base -- like a singles group, church, or synogogue? <P>I am going to take JL's words about control to heart myself. I am going to be in control of myself -- I too can work anywhere. I have become confident of that! But I am going to let him alone. I will try not to come to each conversation with him with my 'play' in mind -- as my good friend used to say. That would be 'expectations' that you mention. <P>I am also aware of the amount of time I spend thinking and brooding about him. And talking too. I need to focus on me and the kids and the good times we have together, with him or without. And I need to give him just his proper place in my life without being consumed by him -- either in hate or love or dependence or vindictiveness.<P>Thank you JL, although it was not meant for me, I heard your words and I see myself in that mirror.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B> Dara, it's no wonder you see pain in your husband's eyes. This poor guy <I>almost</I> has the patience of a saint. You actually pick fights with him and then accuse <I>him</I> of making no effort to live peaceably. Here he is, already insecure, and yet he keeps coming back for more, while you lie to him about your own feelings, and play him like a yo-yo.<P>Here he made an effort to be a loving husband and father, <I>which is what you say you want</I>, but somehow you managed not to notice, because you were so caught up in your own feelings. So you lit into him again, and he tried to defend himself by pointing out what he had done. The worst of it is, you actually <I>dismissed</I> his efforts as meaningless because he was "only" doing what a normal loving father would do. No, I take that back. The worst of it is, you were <I>affronted</I> by his efforts instead of giving him approval for trying.<P>Can't you see what you are doing? Your husband gave you what you asked for, and you threw it in his face. It seems to me that you are doing an excellent job of establishing beyond any doubt that nothing he does, no effort he makes, will ever satisfy you.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hell Gnome. Another lashing!!<BR>Yes you are right. At this point it is very difficult to see outside my little shell. no matter what I keep blowing it. More later,<BR>Dara<P>PS. thank you<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I am becoming weary. I have never had to fight so hard for what I want before. I t always came quite easily with manipulation. I dont know how to do this, hence me coming here. I do appreciate your straight forwardness. Life lessons learned hard. In my weariness I feel like giving up, walking away and letting him trash this marraige. This is a VERY difficult internal strugglke for me. I am learning however, as the screename implies. I am just plain tired now. Three months of this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Shhhhh...don't tell anyone I told you this...but I'm going to let you in on a little secret that oldtimers don't tell newbies like us...<P>You are tired and exhausted because you are fighting for control....<P>If you let go, you'll get more rest!! The day you learn to let your H go, is the day that you will feel peaceful, calm, and not crazy and exhausted.<P>Trying to control what is not yours to control, and what you have no power to control is what is wearing you out!!<P>((hugs)) BR

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrambleRose:<BR><B> Shhhhh...don't tell anyone I told you this...but I'm going to let you in on a little secret that oldtimers don't tell newbies like us...<P>You are tired and exhausted because you are fighting for control....<P>If you let go, you'll get more rest!! The day you learn to let your H go, is the day that you will feel peaceful, calm, and not crazy and exhausted.<P>Trying to control what is not yours to control, and what you have no power to control is what is wearing you out!!<P>((hugs)) BR</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>THUMP THUMP THUMP THUMP OUCH THUMP THUMP THUMP OUCH WILL THIS EVER STOP? THUMP THUMP THUMP<P>This is the sound of Dara hitting her head against the wall for her own mistakes.<P>THUMP THUMP THUMP<BR>

Dara, do you want to know what helped me the most, besides recognizing that there was nothing <I>I</I> could do to bring my wife back and putting the matter in God's hands?<P>Empathy.<P>If you can learn to put yourself behind your husband's eyes, to feel <I>his</I> pain and cry <I>his</I> tears, you just may find that your anger will dissolve...<BR>

Dara,<P>You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>JL, I find it very difficult to live with him knowing that he DOES NOT want me, and has another person. This is not a control issue, it is simply because I love him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are wrong on both counts here. He very much WANTS you. He loves you, that much is very clear. THe demand for a divorce is gone, why? Because he hates you? I don't think so. He is hoping that somehow by separating you will MISS him, that you will learn to love him, that you will trust him to love you without the control, that you will think of his feelings and thoughts. You are not Dara.<P>You are still reacting only to your pain. A pain born out of not getting what you want, not out of love or concern for him. That is so sad Dara. Here is what concerns me even more. If you are having this trouble with H, what are you going to do when you children turn from loving needy little creatures to TEENAGERS with their self-centeredness, neediness, and loathing of an parental control. It will happen Dara.<P>This battle you are in is about more than your marriage Dara. It is about how you are going to be as a parent. How you are going to be in any relationship, and perhaps most importantly how happy you will be in your life. You see long term you have to make yourself happy, not just protect yourself, look out for yourself.<P>You asked: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am becoming weary. I have never had to fight so hard for what I want before. I t always came quite easily with manipulation. I dont know how to do this, hence me coming here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, the manipulation was a short term win wasn't it. But more importantly, you are so weary and fighting so hard because you are fighting the wrong battle. You keep trying to win the control battle with your H, which means you are fighting yourself. Your H loves you Dara. If you would just stand back, be receptive to his trying to reach you, and be greatful for what he does well, you would have the battle won. I don't recall if it was BR, Orchid, or DePlume, but your H is trying.<P>He needs your love, understanding, and most of all your trust that at one time he did love you. More importantly he is making all the noises of a man that would love to be in love with YOU again. I feel that he sees things in you that you don't see. He probably sees a beautiful woman, a mother of beautiful children, someone who is basically good deep inside, but has covered all of this beauty with manipulation, self-centeredness, and even cruelity.<P>He knows the outer shell can kill him so he runs from it, but he sees the inner you and still loves it. What does he do? He hopes that somehow, someway, you will shed that outer shell like a skin and the beautiful you will come out.<P>You meanwhile would like to shed that skin, but you are hanging on to it with all your might, because you feel it has been your protection, your insulation, your safety. In reality it has been the source of many of your problems. Your H would have loved to been your protection, insulation, and safety. He would have loved to be wedded to you like a second skin to play that role. But it hasn't worked that way has it Dara.<P>So things to think about. You are thinking and that is good, and yes old habits die hard. <P>God Bless,<P>JL

NoraP,<P>I am very flattered and honored that something I have said has helped you. I do believe that we have corresponded before, but I must admit I don't recall the story right now.<P>In any event, I do hope that your pain is lessened and that you are on your way to healing.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

He doesnt want empathy. He doesnt want anything from me. He says now he cant stand being around me, and does not love me, nor will accept my love. I just tried to reach out to him and he pushed away. Says he doesnt care. OK guys I am throwing in the towel.<P>Let go is what I hear. BR do you understand that in order to do that I cant be around him. I am having a VERY hard time dealing with his rejection of me.<P>I do have empathy for what he is going through, that comes because I love him. Now I cannot even touch him. Pushed away. <P>So now I deal with the million dollar question that I worried about before. If I cont to live with him when the time comes I was afraid that it would hurt all over again. (HIm leaving) Could I live with him and show him love? Or by doing it am I making harder for myself to let go?<BR>Question answered. I have made it harder, because I cannot seem to let go. So I will face this misery and get it over with. I CANNOT continue to face his rejection. Believe me guys, it is evident all the time even w/o me asking for his attention or love. He made it perfectly clear to me to stay away from him just now, that he has NO feelings for me.<P>Sure that may be his anger speaking. But I do take it at face value. <P>Sure I would love to stay here. I could do that if there were the possibility of him just BEING open to working on us. He says he no longer pushes the divorce because he will lose his fin. aid. This is why, for himself. As soon as he is done w/ school he will push for the big D.<P>What would you say? How would you respond? With tears in your eyes, with a broken heart? Well, my response was okay, if you are sure that is what you want. Yes, I heard him say. I walked away.<P>