I think I really like this place. Not the first time I have been told I am full of crap in my life, and there is little I value more than honest unvarnished feedback. Further I realize I may indeed be full of crap, but I will say I don't play games, and try to be as honest as I can about how I see something. This is one of the things I really like about on-line, you get much better feedback than from friends and relatives about most anything. And although I think [of course ] I am usually on track, I have had my mind changed on occassion, expect a vigorous rebuttal, I am very opinionated on human behaviour and relationships, and have spent my entire life studying people closely. I readily admit though I cannot help but be biased at the moment re some aspects of behaviour. I will contemplate today the issue of whether I am in heat (implying that the ow relationship has no value I guess, is that right lori?), vs whether I am simply recognizing I am living with the wrong person.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by confusedin MI:<BR><B><BR>Sheryl........ There is no "right" way to find a mate. Nature (and the urge to mate) does not come with a rule book. It is very primal, we are hardwired for it. Trouble is we can and do make mistakes. So in our infinite wisdom we construct societies and cultures and try to impose "rules", with some success as we try to unravel the human psychology of mate selection. If I may be so bold I would say you did it exactly the right way........... if it works out. In this business it is all in the results. The method is irrelevant. Ah, but assessing the results, the impact of our actions on others, the ripple effects through our tribe, our culture, and down throug time itself. Hard to assess huh, we will never really know, I know that. Good luck with your new mate.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have to hurry right now, but one thing jumps out at me, <B>confused</B> --<P>You think I did the *right* thing? Go back and re-read my post! I did everything all back-asswards... sigh ... and it is either luck or God's hand that allowed me to actually be with a "good" man... I didn't deserve it, and I went about it all wrong. <P>I told you things I've NEVER said on this forum before... I have taken a chance on you... that you would take my words and USE them. <P>Do you realize how stupid I was for putting myself in this situation -- how it could have turned out differently at any turn? How I could have been disappointed, hurt deeply, killed by a STRANGER I met on the net?? I have thought of that often too... again, I was lucky.<P>Do you realize I have FOREVER changed that lives of so many people? Did you READ what I wrote... all these lives... and I can't do a damn thing to fix it all now. Oh, some would say I *could* go back to my ex, my BF could go back to his... and there have been times that it was contemplated... as I said, as recently as two weeks ago for me... although in my case, it was for my children, not for my ex. (and I don't know if ANY amount of conseling, not LB'ing, Plan-anything'ing could get the love back between us -- doubtful, if not impossible, at this juncture). <P>You know, up until about a year ago, my ex could have won me back with a *smile*... I wanted my marriage SO MUCH... <P>Thank you for the well-wishes... I hope we are successful too, believe me. I hope and pray that we make it... and once we marry - IT WILL BE FOR LIFE.<P>I won't be flip here, although I could be... I could make all happy faces and rainbows... it is NOT happy faces and rainbows... it has been the HARDEST and most PAINFUL thing I've EVER EVER gone through -- more than my son's suicide attempt -- DO YOU UNDERSTAND????<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 20, 2001).]

You know, I feel so strongly about this...<P>What I did... was WRONG... that it has "turned out" is perplexing, amazing and I am blessed beyond all reason.<P>I won't pretend there aren't moments of sheer bliss with my "new life" but there has been utter pain and hell too...<P>I never expected someone to take my words and see *acceptance* for an affair.<P>Maybe it's semantics, but when someone has filed for divorce, moved out (my BF had moved out, but could not file for divorce for a set amount of time per the laws in the country he lives in), and clearly the marriage is OVER, it isn't the same as cheating while married. I'm sure I'll be flamed... or corrected nicely ... but it's truly how I felt as it was happening. <P>I am blessed... as I said above... that this has turned out as it has... <P>...it easily could have gone the other way...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 20, 2001).]

Hi Confused, I haven't got much to add to what everyone else has said with far more insight than I have. But I had a couple of things I just wanted to voice:<P>First off, Mrs. Confused, if you are out there lurking still...welcome to Marriage Builders. I hope that regardless of what your husband decides to do, that you will come to us for help and support. We understand like no one else, because we have lived and are living through the horrible grief, hurt, rejection, and overwhelming loss of self-esteem. You aren't crazy and you will get through this - we are here for you too, not just your husband. <P>As for you, Mr. Confused,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can't believe who I have become<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is I think is your most honest statement in your whole post. If you want to become someone you can respect again, you are in the right place. The rest of what you posted is what Lori said quite succinctly: crap.<P>If you don't hate your wife, but you do hate your marriage, then change the <B>marriage</B> into something you do like. THAT'S the essence of the Marriage Builder's approach. It's a cheesy saying, but Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.<P>From what you posted, it sure doesn't sound like your wife is unwilling to work with you on making a marriage for both of you that is loving, fulfilling, and worth living in.<P>You know, from reading everything that you have posted, I get the feeling that you are an extremely intelligent man. You know what the problem is with really smart people??? They get too used to being right, and relying on their own thought processes to make decisions. So when they are wrong, its pretty damn impossible to convince them that THIS time, there's a flaw in their logic.<P>Add to that the addiction influence that you are under. Have you ever tried to have an intelligent rational conversation with a drunk or a drugged up person?? That's what we are trying to do with you. The drunk doesn't think he's "fogged" in his thinking either....<P>I also find it rather telling (and redundant to the other WS's excuses) that you felt you were with the wrong person all these years, but didn't do anything about it until the OW came along. WS's frequently re-write their marriages about the time that the OW shows up. Yep, nothing unique here in your story.<P>But you are convinced that your wife is the WRONG one, while OW is the RIGHT one. Statistically speaking, your relationship with OW doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell. It's based on lies and deceit and fantasy. If the 2 of you moved in together and had to deal with the reality of day to day living...trust me, the shine on this soulmate would tarnish pretty darn quickly.<P>Yes, some work out, like Sheryl. But, let me tell you my take on Sheryl's (NB) story (and Sheryl, if I get this wrong, I most humbly apologize for my liberty).<P>Sheryl did her damndest to save her marriage. She took responsiblity for her part in the marriage, recognized that she was at fault also, and learned many many lessons about marriage, relationships and love before she left her marriage. It's my opinion that her xH was far more at fault than she - and he certaintly didn't get happier in his new relationship. She went to her new relationship with OM after 1. she saw what she did wrong in the first marriage, and 2. learned what to do right. And yes, theres a big difference btwn the two.<P>You on the other hand, leaping from one failed marriage to another relationship, based on lies and fantasy, have learned nothing.<P>But what you said below, really upset me:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>This is something I really am struggling with, the short term affect on a spouse who has been "left". Personally I would much rather be left, than be a leaver, the guilt is awful. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>PUHLEEEEEEEEEEZE!!!!! <P>Short term??????? My H's affair has left life-long marks on me. I will never be the same, ever again. And I know that there is not one single BS on this board who will tell you that they were only affected short-term.<P>Not only that, but affairs impact more than just the 2 spouses. Haven't you read one thing that others have already posted? <P>I understand your children are grown. But trust me, they will be devastated when the truth comes out. Your extended family will also be thrown into a turmoil. What you are doing will cause long lasting hurt to more than just your spouse. <P>Last summer, while my H was off taking care of his emotional well being at the expense of mine and our children...his father was at my home, taking care of my H's responsiblities. My FIL was not angry at me in the least...but his face was awful and grim, the hours he stalked around my home, taking care of the responsiblities that his son abandoned while off seeking passion and happines elsewhere. My H's family has been very hurt and devastated by his actions.<P>My H's selfishness has impacted our children for ever. I can't even begin to describe their pain and hurt, as their father started his new life with OW and her children. They felt replaced and rejected too....and I don't think that your kids ages will protect them either. It's still going to hurt them.<P>I can't even begin to describe the pain that I went through as a result of my H's affair and abandonment. I have heard those who have lost children say that it hurts even worse than the loss of a child. I can't speak for that, I haven't lost a child. I did lose a sibling however,and I can tell you that my H's affair was FAR WORSE. I found a suicide prevention hotline, and USED IT while trying to cope with my pain. Depression, suicidal thoughts, loss of self-esteem, sheer pain, anguish, hurt and overwhelming devastation are what your wife is struggling with right now as a result of your affair.<P>And you'd rather live with THAT, instead of the pain of guilt? I hope for your sake, that no one ever does to you what you have done to your wife. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.<P>I'm sorry if I am coming across harshly, but I'm telling it as I have lived it and as I see it.<P>I hope you keep coming back here, and honestly listening and try to do what is right because I pray that you do not continue down this path - your family does not deserve what you are doing to them.<P>-BR<P>

Lostva I just have to say one thing. In regards to threatening divorce all of the time. You were 100% correct. I think the hair stood up on my arms when you said that. I've mentioned in posts before of how I'm a completely different person in my second marriage vs. my first marriage. I did a lot of ranting and raving with my first husband. I often told him that I couldn't stand him and that I wanted a divorce. I've also commented before that as far as communication him and I had none. It was like talking and arguing with a brick wall. You said that his wife could be saying that to attract his attention. You hit the nail on the head with that one! You are also correct....that is NOT a mature way to get somebodies attention. It never worked for me and it's obvious that it isn't working for his wife either. My ex always looked at me with this really stupid look on his face when I said that. In fact, I don't think it phased him. I'm sure he just figured I was *****ing as usual. (So, Mr. Confused I think Lora is right on in this regard!). In my current marriage communication is very important to both of us and not only does he listen, he hears what I've said. Because of this, you would think a different woman is inside my body. I don't talk the same, I don't act the same and I don't feel the same. I certainly have never even thought the D word, let a lone said it. So, Mr. Confused, could it be that your wife has not been asking for a divorce all of these years but instead has been asking for you to hear her too?? Maybe both of you have been so busy noticing that the other is not hearing YOU, that your not hearing them. Mr. Confused, I told you in an earlier post that I am one of the very, very few that did leave my ex and am happier now. BUT, at the time that I actually went through my divorce I had not been having any contact with the other man and to the best of my knowledge he was working very hard on saving his marriage. It was not even in the back of my mind that we'd end up together. I was a single parent for some time before our divorce (during seperation) and still knew that divorce is what I wanted with the other man out of my picture. Can you honestly say that you really, really feel that this OW will not change her mind? Or, is some small part of you feeling like she'll leave her husband once you leave your wife? Talking to you as one WS to another, I know it is very difficult if not impossible to make decisions about your marriage if your involved with the other person. Before you make any decisions I think you really need to decide what you want in life or out of life. If you DO decide on divorce and for some reason you DO end up with the other woman you need to know that in a lot of ways that is even more emotionally draining then what your going though now. I've been where you are....exactly where you are and I know the guilt and pain your feeling. But when your dealing with one or two spouses that do not want a divorce your life will not be without them once your together with the other person. If it's the "feeling" your in love with and not the OP you relationship will not survive what divorce and post-divorce will toss in your face.

NNoooooooooooooooooooooooo......<P>btw, I edited out the crap part b/f anyone had actually posted back 'cause I decided it was rude. I mean, I BELIEVED it, but it wasn't very nice and I was sorta frustrated with all your justifications and it bubbled right out....but I thought better of it and edited. Please accept my apology - that wasn't the best way to say it. Oh, and my closest friends and family will tell you that I'm no better in real life - always there for them, but no less up front. In fact, when Ceecee called late one night, Robert talked to her and said something about how I was too blunt with her the time before....she just laughed told him "Don't you know that's why I called HER? There are a hundred people who'll tell me what I want to hear." I think you can count on complete honesty from everyone here, no matter what side of the fence we're on. I've sure been kicked in the pants enough times - and learned a lot too.<P>As to your statement that this relationship has no value, when the heck did i EVER say that? I do remember saying on your other thread that I believed that you were truly in love.<P>I do remember saying that this relationship felt good and gave you things you deserved that you had been missing for a long time (even though they were coming from the wrong place ).<P>I do remember YOUR saying that the relationship had no future b/c of her deep Christian values and was not a factor in your decision making.<P>I do remember saying that being in love was one of the strongest emotions a human being can experience and for that reason HAD to be affecting your decision.<P>And EMOTIONAL HEAT was the expression I used to demonstrate the extremely intense bond and intoxicating nature of love -the SAME love that I've felt (and still do) in my life.<P>Now you'll hear people on this board refer to the love of an affair as a "fantasy", fog, and not real. You have never and will never hear me say that. The lack of clarity in thinking may be "foglike" but as far as I'm concerned, the emotions are real. Just told someone that in the recovery board. This love is real, maybe not lasting, only time will tell, but it's without a doubt real, imho. Just like Robert's love for PT was real. Not lasting, but real. Just like my love (at first) for my first H was real. It's ok with me. Doesn't change the love WE have for each other.<P>So, where in all my nonsense ramblings have I said that the relationship with your OW was nothing? YOU said it had no future and, if that's truly the case, then you have nothing whatsoever holding you back from learning what you need to learn and giving this marriage it's due - EARNING your way out of it - honest and true......right? I dismiss the other relationship for that reason only - by your own words, you have no future together. <P>And now you've got my Sheryl writing in caps! Do you realize that it was Sheryl, first and foremost who made me want to fight for my marriage?? I'm gonna go hunt for a thread - the one that got me going and see if I can find it. It was in that thread I knew that a spouse who felt the world would be better off without me could one day love me again, with the deepest emotion imaginable. If they've deleted the thing, I'm gonna be hot!<P>Talk to you soon. (I know I said I would shut up, but I say that a lot. I do mean it (like you NB, when you're leaving here - I just can't help myself!)<P>Lori

She's Baacckkkk! Sorry.<P>Ok, here's the link. Not one of the most thought-provoking threads NB has ever begun and not one of the longest. The emotions expressed here didn't ensure their marriage would survive the trauma it had endured. But, Honey, if you wanna know about NB's fight to get to the place that she is now (and you know I wish you every happiness, NB), you gotta read a lot farther back. See the struggle, the health problems, the trying. I kept a copy of this post and it made me fight for MY marriage after Robert left me because I was amazed to see in such a short time that such love could be rekindled. It takes two eventually, and she didn't have that luxury, unfortunately. But it can work and this is the little post that gave me MY "lightbulb" moment. <P>And for that, my dear dear friend, Robert and I will always be in your debt.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/007989.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/007989.html</A> <P>Love lost CAN be regained and improved. Tons of posts here to show that. We can point you in the right direction, but you have to make the choice.<P>(Where the heck are Arik and Nicole when you need them? And Freedom and Mrs. Freedom. duncanmac and suse, lonestar and petunia, Kat1 and mr. Kat1 and all the rest? Hmmmmm....)<P>Lori

Oh <B>Lori</B>, <P>Now I'm sitting here in tears.<P>I really did love him, you know.<P>I remember that day. <sniff><P>Can my new life include that kind of love? Yes, I know it can (as you do)... and it does. But that doesn't mean I don't remember how much the first 20 years of my adult life mattered...<P>Thank you for reminding me...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Lori,<P>I adjusted my first post, for your benefit...<P>

Hi, Confused, borrowing your thread for a sec..<P>K - it worked! Would you believe I had to FINALLY, after more than a year, buy a box of those darned things??? I giggled the whole way down the aisle!<P>Nb - I know you did, Honey. And I know your heart and your mind and I know that you have what it takes to make this relationship everything you deserve. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make you cry - that's just the first post printed and in my MB notebook. I even showed it to Robert a long time ago. Heck, THAT post made a couple of friends of his (she was the WS) give their marriage another shot while he was gone!! HE showed it to them. It's there for me to look at, with Kat1's camping post, Glenn and Carol's remarriage, a bunch from DuncanMac and Suse. But this was the one that kept me from giving up and for that I'll be eternally grateful. <P>Robert looked at me last night, after I had actually truly plucked his very last nerve and we were just too darned tired to argue and just laughed. I laughed back. (We're not so good at fighting anymore )Then he said "who'd have guessed a few years ago that we'd have a marriage that brings both of us laughter every single day - even when we're annoyed." Yup, who'd have guessed. And I realize that we do now - I mean laugh every day, about something. I cannot believe that we go to sleep every night smiling, but we do. <P>And it might not have happened without you. You'll be just fine, you know. I have complete faith in you.<P>Love, <P>Lori<P>Sorry, confused, thanks for the use of your thread. I'll be back grumpy again soon, I promise!

Lori,<P><tears><P>Well now the waterworks have broken the dam! and because I am blessed to have so much in my life -- including friends like you!<P>Thank you very much for all of the kind words and for being supportive throughout this...<P>I am so happy for your success with Robert, and in your life.<P>You are loved, and you are blessed!<P>Love, Sheryl

confusedin,<P>I have read the previous posts and it looks like you have ruffled some feathers - which is a good thing. That is how we learn from each other and why I enjoy this place so much. My apologies, but it looks like my comments may not be pleasant to hear as well... Just take them for what they are worth... <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by confusedin MI:<BR><B>The mere existence of an affair is not an ipso facto proof of deficiencies in the parties. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry I think it is 100% proof. Not proof that the "person" who committed the act is deficient as a whole, but in their decision making ability as it concerns a person outside of their marriage, it most certainly is..<P>----------------<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>My issue with folks is trying to categorically label an affair as wrong, when in reality it may very well be the marriage that is wrong for the psychological health of the ws. No one can own anybody, and anything that smacks of coercion to keep someone in a marriage raises my hackles. So the idea that the bs has experienced some sort of awful betrayal is quite self-serving and seems to be about gaining moral power over the ws. It may be they feel awful, but they had just as much to do with the affair as the ws in many cases. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Am I wrong in saying that this is one of the best rationalizations I have ever heard about an affair? Going as far as to blame your weakness on your spouse? Hey I know more than anyone that marital problems are usually 50-50, but breaking your vow is yours and yours alone (but I'll get to the vow think below...).<P>Amazing. A spouse cheats and breaks their OWN word and it is not just their fault? I guess those who break the law do so because of the way their parents treated them growing up or maybe they needed to eat, so robbing someone was the solution? Or an abuser does so because they were abused (and its not their fault)? And someone who lies is OK to do so because the other person deserved to be lied to?.....<P>---------------<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I disagree with the marital gurus who say marriage is just work, is not supposed to be a deeply satisfying passionate expression of unconditional love. I have observed (and so have you I imagine) very special marriages, where the people are clearly deeply passionately in love for decades, that IMO is the way it is supposed to be...... Vows are often mentioned as the solution to this, but that is not possible. A vow cannot change the human heart, it can only bind in a contractural sense. The vow is uneven, it favors the party who wants the marriage more, therefore is flawed. Unless we accept a doctrine of coercion over choice. IMO each should choose their spouse everyday, and the day one no longer chooses, the marriage ends. If it continues, it is nothing more than a business contract, is no longer a marriage, is coercion, a sort of emotional slavery, and that seems kinda awful, not to mention is not psychologically healthy for either party. May seem harsh, but such is the reality of being human and bonding with another human. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>confused,<BR>I am only 30 years old - married at 25. At age 15 I knew marriage is ALL about work. Maybe it was because of the way my parents acted around us growing up - they never hid problems or troubles - I saw them hit bad times in their lives and I saw them fix what was broke. There were times I could just tell that there were no "butterflies" for either of them, but I saw how committed they were to each other. It does not sound like you have religion in your life so I will tread lightly on the topic so as not to sound preachy. I say this because your views on marriage are very "human" and don't seem to address any spiritual sense except in the fact that we all "deserve" to be happy every day of our lives. The same goes for commitment and vows. Just because we are human we can always fall back on our human weaknesses? What would happen if we chose to make the "right" decisions in the first place, instead of making the wrong ones and then use every reasoning why their should be no consequences to our actions.<P>You sound like someone who is very confused when it comes to "love". But I won't go as far as to say you are self-centered. Funny thing you mention the "wonderful marriages" that are out there - I bet if you knew me and my wife you would have thought we had the BEST marriage around (in fact EVERYONE who knew us thought just that). Why? Because anyone not privy to a marriage (meaning anyone other than the spouses) does not ever know the full extent of what goes on "behind closed doors". To be honest, even I had no idea just how bad things were in "my own marriage"!<P>Right now it sounds like you have gotten to the point of frustration - you are so sure that it has to be better than what you have right now. You know what? Your right. It can be better than what you have. But that does not mean it definitely needs to be with another person. From your own posts, reading between the lines, I can see that there has been a major communication collapse between you and your wife - It seems like right now you want to put the majority of the blame on her. Why worry about who's fault it was, why waste so much time debating the issue? Why not agree that it was both your faults, but that by BOTH of you working on it, it will get fixed! Or at least try to fix it.<P>You do know that there is the outside chance that your marriage has a lot to do with you and not your wife, right? That you can go ahead and dump your wife now - start a new life with someone else and find out in a year or two that your "new" wife also has problems (the same problems as wife#1). How many marriages/relationships will you have to go through before you stop to fix yourself?<P>Now the about vows... It is such a sad state of affairs when your belief about marital vows is so wide spread in our society. You do know that our country tops the list in divorce percentages among all the countries of the world. It amazes me that people have so much trouble making a commitment. Is it that hard? Why is personal happiness so much more important than a persons "word"? <P>What ever happened to consequences? It seems like they don't exist in our world anymore. No one feels like they need to be held responsible for any of their actions - it is always someone else's fault. Not happy - its my spouse's fault. Marriage doesn't mean anything - lets get divorced. "I know I made you promises, but that was then". Why don't we change the wedding vows to "for better and worse or until I don't feel like being an honorable person anymore or until you don't make me happy anymore".<P>My solution: If you can't handle commitment and vows - don't make them. Write your own vows when you stand together and make sure they are speak your feelings about how insignificant marriage is. Don't stand there in front of someone and make a covenant in which you know you are not strong enough to stick to.<P>To me personally, a vow is not just made to another person. It is made to myself and to God. It is more than just a promise. To me it is MORE than HAPPINESS. Yes I am totally serious. How can I say this? Because I believe happiness is generated from within, not from without. This past year has been the worst of my life, but I am still a happy person. I wake up happy, I goto bed happy. People may aggrevate me, but the aggrevation is generated from within. I can "choose" to ignore their actions. No one can "make" me happy or not. So once I remove happiness from the reason I got married, I can focus on what it means to be married. To me marriage is an opportunity to share, to grow, to be together with someone you love, to depend upon, to look out for, to care for, to worry about, to make smile, and to hopefully have these things returned to me. Now if they were being "given" to me at one time and now they aren't, I need to look for "why" this has happened. For there has to be a problem somewhere. If your spouse has the same convictions as you, then they will do the same. ONce the problem is found, then focus can be placed on the solution. I strongly believe that if divorce is never ever "put on the table" then solutions can be found "within the confines" of marriage.<P>It is very easy to guarantee happiness in this life - Just be happy! Sounds simple? It is. Don't look to others to make you happy, look within. Don't get married to make yourself happy, don't enter a relationship to make yourself happy.<P>If you believe in God and follow the bible, then look to His word - no where in there does it ever say marriage is supposed to be a "happy" union. Just as with everything else in this life, it is a tool in which we can use to grow ourselves. To accomplish great things. To bring about new life. To expand our spouses, as well as our own horizons. It is one of the most unselfish things we do (or at least should be) in this life.<P>I take offense at how you downplay marriage to be a simple daily agreement between two people. Does not sound like you are someone I would depend upon for much....<P>Sorry this seems so attacking - they are only my opinions. No matter what you read or write here, you will end up doing what you think is best. All we can do is to maybe help you see things from other angles and hope you give some weight to our opinions....<P>Good Luck,<BR>God Bless,<BR>Mike<BR><P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

This is the first time I have read on this board and I must admit that the only reason I came here tonight is because of the thread which NB posted on the GQII board. . .but I'll come back to that.<P>Confused -- I have read this thread with a lot of apprehension. As I read more, I got more and more frustrated. . . Let me get the sarcasm out of the way first. . . <P>To paraphrase your post and replies. . .<P><B>The grass is greener on the other side.<P>It's not me . . . It's my wife. . . <P>The ends justify the means.</B><P>As so many others have stated, you are not only parroting the "classic" WS lines, but you are adding an intellectual twist to it, that quite frankly makes me wish that I was not able to see it.<P>In fact, I am going to tell a friend of mine to read this thread. . . She is in very much the exact same position as you are in right now. She has been and continues to use the exact same arguements that you are using for continuing her affair.<P>She is a very ggod friend of both my W and I. She has even made me feel a great sense of LOSS of loosing her friendship. I am sure that she feels, much like you do that the ends justify the means. Not only is she destroying her marriage, but she is destroying friendships as well.<P>. . . .Now back to the reason I came over to this board. . .<P>NB is a woman who has endured more pain and torment than you will probably ever understand.<P>How do I know this you ask . . . <P>Because I spent time talking with both her and her exH one on one, trying to help them save their marriage.<P>Forgive me Sheryl, but so much of what Confused is saying is very very close to the things that David said to me, to you, to the entire MB family. . . <P>In case you haven't guessed by now, I am a BS. I have fought long and hard to repair my marriage. And you know what? I have more respect for Cheryl than I have for most people, man or woman, because of what she has gone through, and how she is surviving.<P>Cheryl, you deserve happiness, and I hope and pray that you find the love and respect in your current relationship that you deserve. . .<P>I'm going back to where I belong now . . . GQII that is.<P>My hopes and prayers go out to all, who find themselves in a position where they needs places like MB. Including Confused.<P>God Bless

"Would I be more receptive to reconcilliation if the ow did not exist, and I had just agreed to divorce cause I was tired of being alone."<P>Who knows? Doesn't sound like you are willing to live alone long enough to find the answer. Gee. Being inconvenienced and unhappy is SUCH a bummer.<P>"I don't know, probably, but only cause I was in denial of how bad things were."<P>Ya-da, ya-da. Heard it a million times before.<P>"It bothers me a great deal that the emphasis of MB and various marital self-help manuals and Christianity itself, is that marriages are worth saving simply cause they exist."<P>If you don't like the way it is set up, don't agree to play. Basically, if you don't like the rules of marriage, don't get married. <P>"It almost seems the marriage is more important than the people."<P>It is, in the big scheme of things. But I guess marriage to you was all about YOU and YOU being happy.<P>"In starting to really look at all this I find myself wondering what the heck marriage even is."<P>Wow. It's about time, huh?<P>"It seems to be nothing more than 2 strangers choosing each other to live with. There is nothing inherent (that I can see) in that choosing being good or bad for the people, simply cause they chose. The goodness or badness would seem to arise out of how the people fit together."<P>Sorry, the marriage vows don't say "hey, if you guys decide not to "fit" together, then get a divorce". As a matter of fact, it does explicitly say "for better or for worse". Of course, you only thought it was going to be for the "better" in your case?<P>"If they fit well, something wonderful can result"<P>Bull. You act like this is something that is effortless. Something wonderful results from the ACT of their commitment, not just because they miraculously were "perfect" for each other.<P>"if they don't it is emotional/psychological torture, and everything inbetween."<P>Certainly, for people like you who (apparently) think marriage only exists for your convenience, it must be something like torture.<P>"Clearly people choose poorly quite often, hence so many troubled marriages."<P>No doubt. The courageous and committed make the best of what they've got and continue to try and make it better. The rest make excuses.<P>"The question is then, shouldn't we first assess whether 2 people should even be together, before trying to "fix" whatever is supposedly wrong."<P>What "we" are you talking about. You've apparently made this decision all by yourself.<P>"And what do we do when the marriage is "good" enuf for one, but not the other? Is the leaver then just a good for nothing bum?"<P>No, I wouldn't say a good for nothing bum. Just incapable of maintaining a life-time commitment who (IMO) shouldn't be able to receive the "perks" of marriage anymore in the future.<P>"It troubles me we seem so fixated on convincing people who want to leave they do not know their own hearts, and just need to be fixed."<P>I'm sure you know your own heart. Don't bother fixing yourself. Just don't waste someone else's time or hurt anyone else by trying to convince them that you can be married for life.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Empty Shell:<BR><B><BR>NB is a woman who has endured more pain and torment than you will probably ever understand.<P>How do I know this you ask . . . <P>Because I spent time talking with both her and her exH one on one, trying to help them save their marriage.<P>Forgive me Sheryl, but so much of what Confused is saying is very very close to the things that David said to me, to you, to the entire MB family. . . <P>In case you haven't guessed by now, I am a BS. I have fought long and hard to repair my marriage. And you know what? I have more respect for Cheryl than I have for most people, man or woman, because of what she has gone through, and how she is surviving.<P>Cheryl, you deserve happiness, and I hope and pray that you find the love and respect in your current relationship that you deserve. . .<P>I'm going back to where I belong now . . . GQII that is.<P>My hopes and prayers go out to all, who find themselves in a position where they needs places like MB. Including Confused.<P>God Bless</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh my gosh, <B>Empty Shell</B>...<P><tears> BIG TIME!!! <P>No, I don't mind about what you said... all I can say is THANK YOU!!!<P>WOW!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 20, 2001).]

NB,<P>Friend of mine, I have a concern here...<P>I've noticed quite frequently that your name is used by a few unrepentant betrayers to justify their affairs and not so well-gotten relationships with OP. Now, I don't think this is your fault or something you are encouraging. On the other hand, I do wonder sometimes why you are posting here. <P>If you want to counsel people about the "evils" of affairs, etc, then you need to set an example in your own life. You make a statement about how "wrong" your situation was, but then congratulate yourself on your good fortune and good luck with the OP. It is kind of confusing. Since I know your situation personally, I know this is not the impression you wish to leave. The fact that people like the one who initiated this thread search you out and name you in person is evidence enough. And this isn't the first thread of this sort.<P>It is not enough to come here and tell people, "do as I say, not as I do". If you really believe that what you did or are doing is wrong, then do something to remedy the situation. Or, on the other hand, do not claim that it is "wrong". One more option would be to say, "hey, it's wrong but I don't care. It makes me feel good right now." <P>I really don't understand how people like BonnieSept come here and talk about marriage. Right now, both you and her are only providing ammunition for betrayers. Like, "see, the grass really is greener. Things are great with the OP. It worked for me. It could work for you." I know that is not what you are saying, but that is what you have been doing, and actions speak louder than words. <P>I care about you Sheryl. I know about your situation. I know that more than anything you wish to be whole and at peace. Are you really at peace right now? <P>There is one thing I've learned the hard, hard way. The only way to be truly happy is to live life in accordance with one's values, no matter how hard it is at the time. In my own life, I find myself making excuses. Trying to take the short cut. There are no short cuts. <P>

Hi Stu,<P>I'm sure you're asking a question that others wonder about too. I did address this in "An Explanation" which I wrote on this site, and on the GQ forum. I also realized, too late, that I am seen as a poster girl for "the grass is greener club."<P>And, of course, I know you know me outside of this place, and have a caring for me that goes outside of MB.<P>So... I guess what I want to say is this:<P>I began posting here again, <B>NOT</B> to say "Do as I say, not as I do"... because we're not talking about my present situation in most cases. When I post here, it is not as someone who "ended up" with my "OM"... although some (maybe most) would say that I did... it is as someone who can clearly see what I **should have done** in my past-marriage to David... that might have saved it.<P>You ask if I'm at peace. Yes, and no... so I guess, no, not completely. Here's why: Well, I carry guilt and pain from past choices that will color everything I do in my life from now on. Yes, it will lessen with time, but it will always be a part of who I am. I will always wonder what snapped in me to make me do what I did (have an affair) and I also haven't figured out why I felt the need to go so far away from David to save my sanity -- aside from being with the new man.<P>I am happier than I have been in a very long time. To make you barf, I will say that I'm "in love" and that I'm finally able to look at myself in the mirror and not hate who I see. I am not "at peace" but I am "getting there"... you know better than most (and yes, there are a few others, and they know who they are) that I was NOT AT PEACE at all for a long, long time... and wasn't when I first moved here either. <P>So, Student, maybe you don't really "get" why I'm here... and hey, I guess that's okay... if someone does, and they learn something in spite of my foibles, then they are the person I came to help.<P>You, my dear woman, are wise beyond belief and don't need my help, so maybe you don't read what others do. Maybe one day I'll just say, hey, my work is actually done here... but like me, you understand only too well that leaving this place is akin to quitting smoking -- it's an addiction, this place.<P>Have I answered your questions? Lord only knows...<P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 20, 2001).]

Sheryl,<P>Well, I guess it had to happen eventually. Somehow, I knew my blunt ways would take over... <P>The only reason why I'm posting this in public and not privately is because I really hate to see unrepentant betrayers receive support for their behavior in any way. God knows they get enough outside of MB. There are lots of other people who are much gentler in their approach towards WS than I am. I'm sure I could learn a whole hell of a lot from them.<P>I'm not that wise, Sheryl, otherwise I wouldn't be here. I can't say that I'm at peace either. My life is very simple at the moment, and that is my blessing. I suppose that being happy never was one of my primary goals in life. One of my friends had this book of "questions". It was designed to help sift out one's values. One of the questions was something like "what is most important to you?<BR>a) love<BR>b) knowledge<P>Guess which one I chose? Yep. (b), because I personally don't believe you can really have (a) without (b). <P>I don't need to "get" why you are here. You stated that one of your intentions in staying here was to help others. That was my goal at one time too. However, I learned that, for one reason or another, I really wasn't helping people too much. So, I went away. That is just me. <P>I'd like to think you could transcend your current circumstances enough to help others here. Alot of the old-timers understand. It is the newcomers I worry about. Without them going back and reading everything (and even for a few that have and don't agree) all they are left is with the impression of your choices now. <P>

Hmmmm...I can see this is gonna be a tough reality check. I will admit I winced at many of the comments, being told I am a self-centered nicompoop doesn't do much for the ego. Ya know, I really don't know what to do, I know I am unhappy, and lonely, and have been for all of my marriage. But I am told my feelings don't count, that is what my wife has said (in so many words) for 23 years. It is not like I didn't try to get her to hear me, I did. Wrote her dozens of letters, took her to counselling, bazillion attempts at conversation. I am not your usual male, I am extremely verbal, and talk constantly, about everything, including my feelings. Funny thing is, my wife is not the usual woman, does not talk much, and definitely not about feelings, mostly just complains, critizes, and nags. Of course, she might see it differently, I wouldn't know. But I would like to know why my feelings don't count, why they must be changed, why it is assumed I must want to be married to this woman, and just don't know it, or that I owe her. Why do I owe her? I have upheld my end all this time, and yes I did have an affair (finally), it was only in last few months, why does this count more than the 23 years of unhappiness, and why is being happy not important? Why should marriage be nothing but work? I already have a job, I can quit a job, if marriage is work, can't one quit?<P>Lori.....Ok, I have learned one thing already here, I am not gonna cross swords with you, I will lose. Ok, so I sounded pompous and self-serving, I was, and you did a good job of hanging me on my own petard. Indeed I am searching hard for self-justification, because I am truly not certain, or in heat, or just out of the guilt one feels (whether they really should leave or not, seems to make no difference re having guilt)....I dunno. Forget all my theories on human mating, and let's assume I am simply a normal person who is in heat and addicted to the emotional support from ow that has been lacking heretofore. I can't be too bad a person, I didn't look at another woman for 23 years, and this one started as a friendship, I had absolutely no idea, or intention of it being anything else. Keep in mind I was desperately unhappy (and yeah wife is too I suppose), and that for last couple years we could best be described as emotionally divorced, had not even slept in same room for 5 years, were intimate maybe a dozen times in that five years. Other than asking for a divorce, and ignoring the counsellors admonitions, she did nothing to indicate she wanted me. So why should I care now that she does? Why should I believe her, and that it is not simply fear of being abandoned, and that I am better than nothing? For last 2 months her efforts at reconcilliation have consisted of constantly telling me how awful I am. I endure 23 years of rejection right in my own home, despite MY efforts, and now cause I have an affair of a few months I am the bad guy, why, she made it clear I was not wanted, so? Seems a bit one-sided to me, if I may say anything in my defense. Maybe my mistake is that I just didn't agree to divorce a year ago. I really do not see why the affair is such a big deal, in our particular case. Why do "we" seem to assume the person who has an affair is some emotional low-life no matter what the circumstances. Believe me, if I could have read the future, I would have sought the divorce long ago. I was the one holding out, trying to keep the marriage going, now I am the villian, go figure. Anyways I am not complaining, I deserve your comments, I just wish I had run my life differently. So tell me, when do you know it is really over, and if one has already tried over and over, why try again? I still don't get that part. Have I somehow generated one more chance for my wife cause I had an affair? That is the price I must pay for breaking the rules? And what is my role in this chance? Must I fake an interest in remaining married, dutifully carry out some set of behaviours dictated by marital gurus, just endure my wife's constant *****ing/criticism for x months/years till my penance served, what...what...what...that is the part I am stuck on, how does one deny what is in their heart? What does it mean when folks say being in love is not important, that one must just go through the motions/work of being married, love doesn't make any difference at all? And if it does, then why doesn't the fact that I have not been in love for many years (before the affair) not count? BTW who made these rules.<P>bramblerose....You said if you don't hate your wife why not try to build a loving fun marriage. I understand the question, but if I answer I just don't want to. If in fact we had no history and were "dating" I would not date her. I suspect I will be labled a jerk. Why. Why does anyone choose anybody? Cause you want to, right? I don't hate her, I care about her, she is not a bad person, but I don't want to date her, I don't want to build anything, why is that so awful? Don't people breakup in dating relationships all the time, and in fact I did so twice with my wife. I was not in-love when I married, I did so cause I had slept with her, and felt obligated. That was a mistake, but she made it too, and had no business marrying me either, she knew we had serious relational problems. Now I owe her? Is that the way love is supposed to work? If in fact she was the one leaveing, I would not try to stop her (although my bias now makes that statement suspect). Fact is I had already agreed in principle with her we should get divorced, we were just waiting for someone to make the first step, was me I guess, although an affair was not the way to go about it. BTW I meant by short-term affects such things as suicide and self-defeating behaviours, not that the rejection of an affair, or a divorce is short-term. I do find it interesting though that the bs position here seems almost sancrosanct, I wonder if anyone feels the rejection by the woman I married for 23 years was a walk in the park, yep that hurt too folks, alot, and I doubt I will ever get over it either. I may have had an affair, but my wife has plenty to answer for too, and emotional abandonment/abuse is not trivial on a man's psyche either. I was there for her, always, and she knew it and counted/depended on it,and would be first to admit it, the reverse was never true. As for affects on others, I continued to do my work, and be there (albeit less) for everyone as I have always been, thing is, in my entire adult life, no one has paid the slightest interest in what I needed. Not my extended family, not my kids (to be somewhat expected of course), not my wife, no one. I was the one that took care of everyone else, solved problems, looked after their emotional welfare. Interestingly the ow has the same role in her life. And yes, no offense BR, but I'd rather be the one cheated on in spades, then go through what I have for 23 years. Maybe this is one of those walk in my shoes thingy's. Maybe an affair is a rejection, but so is 23 years of neglect, who is to say what is really worse, it is all bad, and you can bet my self-esteem was pretty well shot too.<P>Mike....Well, seems you have a philosophical bent too. Would be fun sometime under less stessful circumstances to debate the nature of vows and human behaviour. I see you seem to belong in the every marriage is ok camp, just work on it, and vows are forever. Does that mean to you that makes no differnce who you marry, and that the instant you say I do, it is a 60, 70 year committment, no matter what? That is too high a consequence to place on human beings, and many lives have been ruined trying to meet that impossible standard. Nothing else in human experience remotely even comes close to that consequence from a simple mistake (marrying the wrong person). I admire your idealism, but the reality is it does not work. If one stays in a marriage solely out of such duty, and does not love their spouse (or is not loved), it is not marriage made in heaven, it is hell on earth. I am familiar with scripture as well, and no where in the Bible does it say marriage is an absolute. Marriage is important, and should not be taken lightly, but indeed it must be chosen everyday, and in fact that is exactly what happens. The day you choose not to be in your marriage, it would be over...correct? That is not trivializing, it is a simple statement of fact. If it were not we could just simply take everyone when they reach 18 randomly place them with a mate, but we don't, cause choice does matter, and if made responsibly works well. Also your concept of vows does not take into account many things, not the least of which is deciet, the sort of deciet we all engage in when we put on the dating mask, and try to marry someone, concealing out trueselves. A vow is useless without a thorough knowledge of your prospective mate, and yourself. A few years ago, a captivating young woman was wooed into marriage, there was no sex on the honeymoon, and she came to find out not long after her husband was a homosexual, do her vows bind her? They did for 8 years (yes I was amazed too), till she finally reached the inevitable conclusion, the vows don't mean forever, they mean you will try. True, an extreme case to make a point, but vows are only as good as the desire of the parties to a marriage to be there. You cannot legislate desire, that is a simple fact of human behaviour. And I am adamantly opposed to making marriage a business contract, (that is psychological suicide), which is all a vow is without desire. I realize my position is not popular amongst idealists, but it is consistent with the realities of psychological health in human beings. As for God, He is all powerful and His ways mysterious, He can certainly end a marriage by divorce if He wishes, and I have no doubt He does. Freewill ensures we will make marital errors, not marrying the spouse God had provided, cause we were not patient, or were not looking, God may grant relief in many ways, including finding new spouses for the parties. The success rate of 2nd marriages for folks who have learned their lessons properly in their first marriages is extremely high, there must be a reason for that. However, to clarify, I do think marriage should be taken seriously, and a fair amount of effort made to ensure one is not acting immaturely in a choice to leave a marriage. But neither do I think we should worship vows, settle for a mediochre marriage cause it is the one we happened to get, or try to bind someone in a marriage contracturally. And I do think the proper goal of human beings is to be happy, that is how we measure success, and is exactly how God made us. Now defining happiness could be interesting, but there is no point to glorifying being unhappy.<BR>

"the vows don't mean forever, they mean you will try."<P>Ok. You tried. Get a divorce. Next time you get married, say "I will try to...." It will be very clear then. <P>Or you could say something like "as long as love lasts", instead of "till death do us part". I know at least one person who is getting married this summer who plans to take vows of this sort. At least he's being honest.<P>I won't get into an argument about who did the most damage in your marriage, or who is being the bigger jerk. It doesn't matter. You can get a divorce and it will be no problem. You will find someone new pretty quick and alot of this hassle will be behind you. Take a look around. Alot of the people who were so "traumatized" by their divorces a year or two ago--no matter what the circumstances, are pretty happy now. <P>