Love you too Sheryl!!

BEAUTIFUL Ladies... thanks for your openness and honesty - both of you!<P>But, since you're willing to share about finances STUDENT with NB, please share with me also! Could you post this as a topic - finances for women?<P>Thanks!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by new_beginning:<BR><B>No, this is not a goodbye message, because Lord knows I've written enough of those to last a lifetime -- AND, I keep coming back, so it seems kinda silly! <P>Here's the thing.<P>Clearly my being here is sending a message that I did not want to send.<P>For every message of support, I believe there is a dozen or more lurkers or non-lurkers who feel that I'm promoting infidelity.<P>It was mentioned to me that if I was *okay* with all of this I wouldn't care what people think. <P>I've always cared what people think.<P>...sigh...<P>Thank you for the support I have received, and I will continue to visit those posters who I think might benefit from my experience. <P>Maybe one day I'll just disappear -- hey, stranger things have happened...<P>Like I said before... I am a hurricane... and maybe this was just me blowing through...<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sheryl,<P>My dear Sheryl. I worry too what others *think* of me. Let me start with what I think of YOU.<P>You, and several others, but mostly you, have been VERY honest with me. Opinioned I would dare to say. And I must add to that word opinionated something else so you know where I am coming from. You have given me the straight honest truth even when it hurt me, scared me andsurprised me. Are you a licensed marraige counselor? No. Are you some wise ols spirituallt devoted monk? No.<P>So where do your words of wisdom come from?<P>Life lessons learned HARD.<P>NOT ONE of us here can say we have been the *perfect mate*. <P>Most of us here have broken hearts from our broken marraiges. <P>The words you haven given me I cherish!!!<P>I am sure you have made mistakes. We all have. Every darn one of us here on earth and on this board. You had an affair, towards the end of your marraige. It turned out to be a good relationship. You got lucky. I am very happy for you.<P>Maybe part of the reason why some are so critical of your choices is because we all want to hear that the relationships with the OP NEVER works out. Maybe it comes from some primal need for us to hear that, I dont know.<P>But I am concerned that you are hurting, and want to tell you that I care. POint to all of this is is that you DID try to salvage your marraige. It did not work out. Once you begun the path of healing and self-discovery, from what I understand he wanted to reconcile. But you have moved on. Is this part of the reason you are getting so much negative feedback?<P>and folks, please. Sherly IS an advocate of marraige and reconciliation. There are folks here who respond to other's dilemas by saying "youve ahd enough, give up. you dont need to put up with it."<P>Sheryl IS NOT one of them.<P>I respect her tremendously.<P>Dara<P>

OvrCs,<P>You mentioned that you wanted me to post something special-like finances for women. This is just a general list...<P>1) Don't depend on a man for your credit or your car. Have your own car with your own name on it. Apply for credit cards by yourself (not with your H as co-signer). Do not spend more than you can pay off every month. Credit card finance rates will eat you alive.<P>2) Always have both names on the mortgage and anything else major. Buy a house that you could afford on one salary, in case the other loses their job.<P>3) Don't get married before getting a college education or job training of some sort. Even if you plan on staying home to raise children (and your H is not a schmuck), he could still die or become disabled, forcing you to have some kind of skills to support the family.<P>4) Don't leave the job market full-time for more than 1 yr. Hire part time child care or find work you can do out of your home. Employers quickly downgrade skills left idle for more than that period.<P>5) Constantly update your work skills with on the job training or night-classes. See 3 & 4. <P>6) When you do work, have your own retirement savings (i.e. IRA or 401k). Don't rely on your H's retirement. During a divorce, the retirement savings often is a negotiable item. If you've taken care of yourself already, you won't be left in the lurch. If you aren't working, request that an amount equal to the amount your H is putting away be put in your name in a separate IRA with a company that manages mutual funds (i.e. Fidelity, Vanguard, etc). <P>7) Do not marry a man with significant debt or bankruptcy issues. That debt becomes yours when you marry. <P>8) Put your goals first. I don't think I've ever heard of a man who dropped out of college just to get married, but women do that all the time. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited April 21, 2001).]

Well, it wasn't my plan to come back on, but my BF's daughter was ALREADY on the internet, and um, well, it seemed a waste to not just check in...<P>Oh brother, eh?<P><B>Student</B>,<P>Good list. I look forward to discussing some things with you... things I can already see... like what if you've done everything all backasswards already??? Yes, we'll talk Monday, or as soon as you can... I know how busy you are.<P><B>Dara</B>,<P>My goodness!! Lovely, lovely words for me... thank you VERY, VERY much for the respect you give me, and for the caring...<P>Please write a post on Monday morning and tell us all how you've been doing over the weekend. <P>I said a prayer for you today.<P>Hugs!!<P>...and <B>OvrCs</B>, Thanks for reading all that... and for caring... <p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 21, 2001).]

Student - Amen, Amen, Amen!! Good List!!<P>I understand how you feel - I too, do not fit into this "new cultural norm". I have been celibate for almost 5 years and do not find it difficult, as there is no one I wish to be with. I gave my heart and soul to my H, and like yours, he shredded them into small pieces, only caring about what he needed, what he had to get for himself, and how he could make himself happy (apparently by finding someone new, having an affair, and throwing me away.) I cannot say I envy people who are able to use others without a thought or care. I really cannot imagine how they do it. How do they avoid the guilt? Now, I'm not saying that all who have had affairs fall into this category. Only those who are unrepentant and who become so self-righteous about their behavior, as if they had a right to it, and who absolutely don't care about how their actions affect the people who love them the most. <P>I still have a hard time imagining that I will ever be able to give my heart to another man again and trust him the same way I did my H. This is something that I do not give easily. I gave it to my H, and like you, I did not know at the time of our marriage that he was incapable of giving the same to me. This saddens me beyond what my words can express. Like you, I live with this pain and don't really expect it to totally leave me. Still, I am happy with my life and grateful for the love of my family and friends and for the peace of mind that I have found through them and through my faith. All of these things are a great comfort, but they will never completely take away the pain of my (now ex-) H's betrayal and abandonment.<P>Please don't go away again. We need you here!!<P>Sheryl - Stay strong. We all pray for your peace of mind. Don't worry that others will use your story for justification. You have shared your story and your feelings honestly and without self-pity. This is an honorable thing. Please don't leave, either. We all need to share our stories without fear - this helps all of us to gain empathy for each other and to gain understanding. Thank you for your honesty!

Hi All,<P>Reading this thread was kind of like old home week with some of you. Lostva glad to see you still hop in once in awhile!!I miss you my friend!! The Student, I was happy to read your comments I always got alot out of what you say. New Begining, I know where you are coming from as far as the financial issues go. Nellie, Well we are still pretty regular here arn't we! <P>Me I am just very busy right now. I have three kids ages 17,15 and 14 and lots of pets. I work three jobs just to keep my head above water but I like it. I'm kind of in a group all to myself. At first I didn't want my divorce but now I'm almost a happier person. I like being independant for the first time in my life. Do I miss my H? Sometimes. Do I still carry alot of hurt and anger? Every second of my day. <BR>It's like a constant record being played over and over in my mind. I guess I just felt like I was used for 17 years and disgarded like yesterdays paper. I'm not depressed just angry. It is getting less and less all of the time but its still there. I haven't really dated yet because I know that until I can get over this hurt I will never be able to feel for another man. It makes it hard that my EX and his new wife/ow live in my house and have started remodeling and doing all the repairs we had planned to do together. What makes it worse is that I have to see the hurt in my kids eyes over and over again when they come home from seeing him. Sorry for the rant it must be pms time or something. <P>Anyway I was just glad to see all of you again,<P>jilliebean(formerly crazy or what?

Hi <B>Lady M</B>,<P>Thank you for your thoughts to both TheStudent and me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lady M:<BR><B>Sheryl - Stay strong. We all pray for your peace of mind. Don't worry that others will use your story for justification. You have shared your story and your feelings honestly and without self-pity. This is an honorable thing. <P>Please don't leave, either. We all need to share our stories without fear - this helps all of us to gain empathy for each other and to gain understanding. Thank you for your honesty!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you for the prayers and understanding... and you're right about us all needing to hear all sides/thoughts... that's one of the reasons I liked the old format where everyone was all together... <P>My honesty gets me in a bit of trouble in every area of my life. But right or wrong, my life is *out there* and I can at least (despite whether anyone agrees with the "right/wrong" aspect of my choices) look myself in the eyes and know that I am being honest (to my detriment, I sometimes think).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jillybean36:<BR><B><BR>jilliebean(formerly crazy or what?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How did I miss that you were "crazy or what?"... my gosh, <B>HI</B> and it's been a long time!! Gee whiz!!!!!!!!<P>I'm glad you're happy despite the pain you've had to endure. I guess that's what we all want: that illusive *happiness* whether it be with our spouses (which is ultimately what we all wanted when we came here) or without (which some of us face head on and try to overcome)... and some succeed no matter which they choose, and it's ALL okay... as long as we did our best to keep it together. <P>Best wishes as you continue to be a strong woman and a good mommy to those kids!! You are showing them what strength is!! <P>

(((((((((Sheryl))))))))<P>I didn't have my kids this weekend, and spent it repairing/reconstructing an important relationship in my life, but I am back now to write to you again. <P>Again, I'm sorry if I missed on what some people said, I keep popping in and out on the last few comments.<P>I want to say that you are receiving a lot of great advice from people who have been on many sides of this issue.<P>OK, so the new man lives in another country. And he can't/won't give up his kids. Does this bother you deep down that he gets to have a closer relationship with his children than you do?<P>You mentioned that you still have the one minor child, how old is the child, and would you be willing to trust your current love relationship to make it long distance until your minor child was grown? Again, I'm just asking you a question, I am not sure how old your youngest is.<P>Next I can't remember for sure what state you said you lived in, again I appologize I'm trying to catch up here, but was it California? <P>Either way, I read somewhere that a program had been started to help displaced mothers start to work again. Cars were donated , yes they are eyesoars, but were donated, and volunteers would help make them safe and driveable, and then the women had cars to get to work and be productive. <P>I think a lot of communities have programs to help women in situations like yourself. Even a local church, I'm sure would help you, if you really make that decision to go back to your children. <P>Do you have any relatives or family that can help you if you go back to the home town (not ex, but hometown)? <P>It sounds like you really miss your kids, and might be deciding between the kids and the new bf. Its a very tough decision.<P>I saw what TS posted about financial hints for women. I'd like to add one, and the men are going to be mad at me, but this comes from personal experience. I bought a house in JUST MY NAME and NEVER added my ex, even when he became my husband. Because women who went thru this mess before me, told me to never fully trust the marriage . One thing I didn't do, but would do this time, is put more bills (gas, electric, cable, phone), in the man's name. Because if you decide to go out on your own and break up, the outstanding bills can prevent you from getting new accounts in your own name.<P>But TS gave some good advice, which is much of what I do in my own life, I have my own house, car and career and its been that way since before I was married. I gave up a lot in the marriage, but I didn't let go of being able to provide for myself, and its the one and only thing I am proud of this past year and a half.<P>I don't think I need a man in my life to take care of me, but I've fallen into the "i dont' need a man, but I want one" situation more than once.<P>After a year of confusion and pain, I finally have it in perspective and no longer put that "want/need" first.<P>If you really decide to move back, and your new bf loves you as much as he BETTER for all you've given up, than you should get a job where you live now for a month or two and save as much as you can. When you move back , take a cheap plane, whatever mode of transportation and have money for a cheap cheap car, the bare minimum to get you here and there, and a month or two's worth of survival income. Line up a job before you go back, there are relocating employment agents available, live in a "room for rent" in someone's house cheap if you have to until you get on your feet, or contact a church or even local battered woman's shelter for some referrals. I think that this is definetly possible, I dont' care what reason you come up with, we can all work together to find out how to help you with it. I'm real good at finding things on the web and could see what I could find for programs. But I know you will find help and support here if you make that choice.<P>If you really don't chose that option, than get some meds and counseling, because I can't imagine all this pain you are going thru on a continuous basis. You deserve some peace of mind and to get some sort of your life in order.<P>Its a very hard situation and I feel badly for you. I hope nothing I said offended you, I didn't organize this reply in any way before I wrote it. When I am not brought down by my ex, or man troubles, I usually fight hard to get what I want and I always succeed. But when I let men cloud my thinking, I wind up feeling hopeless and confused. Again, no offense to the great men here on the board, just my own personal character flaw that I am working hard on.<P>Anyway, my prayers and thoughts are with you. I am just thinking out loud here and if you really decide to go back to your children, I'm sure many of us here on the board could pool together to find some resources and help you make your goals. There is nothing wrong at all with needing people, or help and if you need it, I am here, you can email me and I'll surf the web or make phone calls. <P>Hugs, Dana<P>

PS I wanted to add two things and that reply was getting long.<P>I'm sorry if this offends the man you live with because if I recall correct, he might be reading this site, but it would be a good idea, no matter what you chose, to become self sufficient and not rely on him no matter how much he loves you or you love him. God Forbid this relationship ends you will wind up alone, helpless and in serious trouble. So even if your not going home to your children (not ex), are you able to get your life going right now so that you can start putting money away. You should never be without your own money or personal account for emergencies.<P>Second, just a thought I had, a woman I know thru my exH, got a job, thru a home health agency type thing. She lived with an elderly woman, very old, but the family didn't want her in a nursing home. She lived in the house rent free. Had use of the car for shopping for the woman and was responsible for her during certain time periods. She also earned money for living. In return, during that time, she took this elderly lady to doctors, the park, did her shopping, etc and the family was at peace for not putting their mom in a nursing home. Just a thought but maybe you could find some situation where you could live and get a discount on that in exchange for your services. <P>Another option might be to train as a nanny with a respectable company, where you live in with the family. Even if you don't plan on doing this permanent, but as a means to survive and live cheaply to get on your feet if you return or something, its good money.<P>I know someone else who was a live in nanny and made earned a good income and had no living expenses really.<P>Good luck, just some thoughts, hugs, Dana<BR>

Hi Dana,<P>Well, I can't take too long here, mostly because my eyes are killing me, as well as my back and I was just thinking that I should sign off and do something that resemebles work around here...<P>But I couldn't ignore this well-thought-out message.<P>In a nutshell, and I will come back to explain later --<P>My son is 16, 17 in November. He told me he doesn't want me back.. but I'll get back to that later.<P>I miss my kids like crazy... completely and utterly. In hindsight, I left for several reasons: first, selfishly, because I loved my boyfriend and I wanted a "new beginning" ... then, it was to get away from David, who was driving me up a wall with the love you, no, yeah I do, no I don't, and all the while having his OW (his fifth).<P>Two of my kids are adults and will be gone this year (one is going into the military)... we all (the kids and I) went to therapy to discuss all of this. They kept insisting that they wanted me to be happy (bless their hearts) because they had seen how it was with their dad. I went to therapy alone too, about just this issue. <P>It's my son, who has special needs... he is the one who I want with me. He says I need him more than he needs me. He thinks his dad is doing a good job. I don't. He and his sister (my middle daughter) said that if I came back, they kick my a$$ back up here - their exact words.<P>My boyfriend is more than willing to have my son with us. <BR>But some things have to happen first... like marriage, immigration concerns... legal stuff. And to be honest, without going into too much detail (and hopefully hiding this in the middle of a thread will not bring too much attention to it) we are engaged. We plan to marry in May. (And the only reason I don't *announce* it is that our situation is cause for pain for some on this board, and I don't want to add to it).<P>I want my children close to me, but I do NOT want to go back there. Believe me, I went through hell and high water emotionally trying to decide the best course of action. I have talked with David, and I have, of course, talked to everyone who will listen -- family, friends, this place...<P>I think my best course of action is to somehow get my son here, at least some of the year. David will allow it. <P>I do appreciate your comments, and your concern (and the love and acceptance you've shown me throughout this).<P>I hope this makes some kind of sense... I'm sure you'll let me know if it doesn't

By the way (as if my back can take even 10 more minutes sitting here)... I just wanted to make one thing clear:<P>It isn't that I can't get a job back 'home', I'm sure I could. Not the job I had, since it's filled with someone else now. I have a specialized career and a degree (Liberal Arts, and with that can get you a dime and a cup of coffee, as they say ) but anyway... it's the "getting" it part that's difficult. There are transportation concerns, etc.<P>The only reason I'm not working here is because legally, I can't yet. I **will not** rely on my boyfriend/fiancee to support me forever. It's just for right now. And my plan is to have my son here as much as possible, if not forever, once I am working.<P>Just wanted to add to what I'd already said, which was gonna be brief comments and ended up as a dissertation instead. <P>Dana, I honestly appreciate all that you've said. Keep up the dialogue... I need to keep thinking...<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 24, 2001).]

(((((((((Sheryl))))))))))<P>Well that piece of information changes everything . I misread your post and thought you were really debating on going back or not. Apparently not if you are going to get married. <P>I know that when I'm having any issues, or just a down day, I need my kids with me. Or near me. I don't like to be without them for long. Then they drive me nuts and I send them off for a few hours for a break. <P>Your son is getting to that age where he is almost a legal adult. I don't know anything about getting him where you are (immigration) but I wonder if once he's 18, if he could refuse it? <P>I will keep you in my prayers and thoughts, Dana<BR>

Hi again, Dana,<P>For the longest time I *was* debating about going back... and The Student was one of the people I debated with (offline)... I have written about it on numerous occasions here too and have gotten truly conflicting advice. The thing is: I know that my friends on MB would want me (for the most part) to go 'home' and fix my marriage to David, or go 'home' and be alone with my kids. My real life friends and family are more like - Stay, or we'll kill you. And my kids? Well, just last night I was talking to my middle daughter and telling her about this... she thinks I'm nuts to even be considering the option (to move back) anymore. They want me here. I heard the "nobody will be here within a year and you'll be alone" speech... I don't know where she thinks my son's going... but that is what she said.<P>As far as my engagement - it just happened, like in two days ago. We have cried and prayed and cried some more trying to decide what to do... I mentioned it somewhere (was it here?) that I spoke with my kids, David, my family, friends, and of course the new man, about going back, if not just temporarily to help David -- he's having a devil of a time. In the end, and after truly MONTHS of torture, we ALL decided that it was best that I stay -- and try to make arrangements to see the kids more often, whether I go there or they come here -- and I have a ticket in my hand to see them in May.<P>I truly do THANK YOU for the time it took for you to write and think on this.<P>It is quite an unusual situation, and one that I am sometimes embarrassed, horrified, and sad, about finding myself in...<P>My son really wants to come here... I sure hope he doesn't want to change his mind!! That would be awful