Student,<P><BR>You will never be filled by being "right".<BR>You will never be filled with enough education.<BR>You will never be filled by being "one up".<BR>You will never be filled by trying to be something that you were not created to be.<P>Keep searching those papers.<P>You will never find one that makes men and women the same except for "on paper".<P>I pray you do find out what will fill you.<BR>Keep looking.<BR>gentle<BR>

gentle,<P>Hmm. and what was I created to be??<P>"God" gave me this brain. It would be a waste not to use it, and a disgrace to God and the gift I was given. Pity that women aren't allowed to have one. A brain, that is.

I am new to the board. I was intrigued by this topic. I believe the division of labor arguement is meaningless. I have been to many boards dealing with divorce/problems in relationships. There weren't many marriages that ended because of the roles spouse assume in the relationship. Number one reason was adultery.<P>I also believe women or men who leave marriages seeking independence are lieing to themselves. They are leaving because they want more freedom to do what they want. You can have a certain level of independence in a relationship but you can't have complete and total freedom in one. <P>Education serves only to increase your job potential and help you get a higher paying job. It has know bearing on you are only what profession you choose. After all Jesus Christ disciples weren't not the most educated men. He was saying by this that the level of education does not make you a better person. After all lot of us has heard of the phrase book smart.<P>I say division of labor is meaningless because it does not define who we are nor how we treat each other. Where true love exist, the point is rendered moot. It doesn't matter if help around the house or just go to work and come and do nothing. If i treat my spouse like crap, the end result will still be the same.

TheOne31,<P>Praise God, you are learning what it takes to fill you. Thanks for not being afraid to speak the truth you have within you. I am free from the lies of this world today because I too am learning the truth.<P>In Him,<BR>gentle

Division of labor is not meaningless when you look beneath the surface. And what issues do you think people argue about in a marriage? Adultery doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's not all about having sex with another person. What makes a husband or wife feel valued or respected? If the husband never helps his wife (as DanaB pointed out) then it is more likely that she will feel taken for granted and not feel like a partner. If all the man does is work all the time and doesn't interact with his children, he's missing out on an opportunity as well.<P>I never said education was the be-all to end-all. Most of my friends don't have a college education but I don't think I'm any better or worse than they are. Sounds like you two are the ones who are hung up about it. Ever occur to you that I LIKE my work? Ever consider that having a PhD is required to challenge me in a way that I find satisfying? <P>"They are leaving because they want more freedom to do what they want. You can have a certain level of independence in a relationship but you can't have complete and total freedom in one."<P>No kidding. Only women are expected to choose between their brains and their heart. If you have no brains, I guess it's not a tough decision. <BR>

I do understand where you are coming from. Trust me I do. My ex went to school, worked, and had a life of her own outside the marriage. She had all the things you say that only a woman must choose. By what you are saying, then she should have been happy, but she was not. I worked, helped raised the kids, I did it all. It is more than the division of labor that causes a marriage/relationship to collapse. It is usually more than just one thing that causes an end to a relationship. The problems are often numerous, some small and some big.<P>In my research to understand relationships/divorce. I have run across a large number of people who get married for various reasons. Women for security, to be taken care of, money, don't want to be alone. Men for money, she looks good, don't want to be alone. Where is the love? Is a marriage more likely to fail if the two people involved are not in love with each other. That is why i said where true love exist and kept alive, division of labor is meaningless.<P>Women are not the only ones that must choose between brains and heart. It just appears that way. Isn't that kind of like saying all men are dogs. I have no problems with the woman I am involved with getting an education and a good job and doing something that is challenging for them. The problem comes when they forsake everything else. I guess everyone was not meant to be married.<P>I wish you all the best in your goal in attaining your Ph. D. It is like this with me. I give you all my love and support, etc. and you do the same. All we need to do now is make time for each other so we won't forget that we are the most important part of the other's lives not the job, or the goal we set out to accomplish. I believe that is why relationships fail. People have a tendancy to forget what is important to them.

At the risk of being redundant, I think I said earlier that I believe the meaning of life is in loving... <BR>* loving God &<BR>* loving others (as ourselves)<P>What we do with our <I>talents</I> and how we apply them is simply NOT the central issue of life. This is how we put bread on the table... or it can be the VENUE for which God has placed us to love - at the various levels of intellect throughout the world.<P>I guess I too think it's not so much a matter of division of labor that is the key issue... but as GENTLE has stated, "What is it that is filling us up?" Without our focus being on that <B>ONE THING</B>... we will be chasing the wind.<P>Are we seeking to do things RIGHT or seeking the RIGHT things to do...?<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

The Student,<P>Brains has nothing to do with it.<BR>Being a man or woman has nothing to do with it.<BR>Keep looking, keep searching and I pray you do find it.<BR>You see my concern is not about being right or wrong, my concern is you. Why? Because I use to be you. <BR>You are in my prayers.<P>gentle<P>P.S. You are getting close with the heart part.<p>[This message has been edited by gentle (edited May 03, 2001).]

My objection to all of you (theone, gentle,ovrcs) is that you have come to the knee-jerk conclusion that, because I am getting my PhD, that nothing else is important to me.<P>Having a PhD gives me more freedom to do the very things you suggest--of course, you probably don't believe that because it doesn't fit into your little stereotype.<P>If I were a man, I'm positive I wouldn't be having this debate with any of you. Not only that, I'd be applauded!! OH look, a man who wants to do housework!! A guy who doesn't think sharing responsibility is against his manhood!! I've heard this crap most of my adult life. Fortunately for me, I was raised in a household where there was no such thing as "men's work" or "women's work". You see, all of you agree with me, but you just don't like the messenger (me). <P>Division of labor only becomes meaningless when both people know how to share. Otherwise it is not meaningless at all.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>My objection to all of you (theone, gentle,ovrcs) is that you have come to the knee-jerk conclusion that, because I am getting my PhD, that nothing else is important to me.<P>Having a PhD gives me more freedom to do the very things you suggest--of course, you probably don't believe that because it doesn't fit into your little stereotype.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I read what they all wrote and I didn't see this AT ALL. Honest to goodness, unless I'm really not "getting" something, all I saw were three people who articulated the idea that the division of labor is interesting to debate, but bottom line, does not define who we are... and they said it in three different *languages*, if you will.<P>I thought this was an interesting topic too! As I said before, being equally important in a marriage is paramount to me! If *I* think I am being treated as "an equal," then does it really matter if someone else views as "equal"? <P>I value education. I've said this before: but my mother has set a WONDERFUL example -- AA in her 30's,, BA in her 40's, MA in her 50's and she is now finishing up her PhD, in her 60's. I respect her tremendously for what she's accomplished, and so does my father. He has a 4 yr. degree and has NO DESIRE to go further than that... and does that make him any less of an equal? Of course not!!<P>Love when you bring up these debatable subjects Student!!<P>

The Student,<P>It doesn't matter what we believe.<BR>What matters is wisdom that comes from God's truths.<BR>I did not grow up learning these truths.It took me being broken from this world to learn God's truths.<BR>Praise God they have nothing to do with what we are taught by this world.All that matters is how God see us. <BR>That is true freedom.<P>gentle

Gentle says it best... you're on a journey for you and that's your search for Truth. I honestly don't debate anything with you except the question... are you asking the right question? I guess that doesn't matter either because it's not about being right or wrong.<P>Anyway, I'm back to Europe for another week of work. I'll check back in when I can. Honestly, I don't take up any issue with you... but it seems you're taking offense to an opinion that doesn't line up with yours. Is this so?<P>Cheers...!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

NB,<P>This (among other things) is where I got the impression that getting my PhD was somehow "wrong" for me as a female.<P>"You will never be filled by trying to be something that you were not created to be."<P>I understand that some fundamentalists believe that the intellectual pursuits (especially to the level I have) are not "natural" for women. The fact that I'm doing it, liking it, AND am very good at it is the best proof that their belief is wrong. Not only is it wrong it is harmful. This does relate to my opinion about the division of labor. We raise men to have heads, but little or no heart. We raise women to have hearts, but no head. I think it is limiting and harmful to shove people into these boxes. I've only ever strived for balance in all things, yet am told that I'm not allowed to have that. <BR>Sorry, won't do it.<P>gentle,<BR>"Gods truths" have been used to justify slavery, killing others (ie the Crusades), and yes, the subjugation of women (in my opinion). I've never made my level of education an issue except where other people make it one. I could care less what level of education anyone has if they are doing what they love. <P>I'm sorry that you felt broken by the world. I'm glad that you found something that works for you--but I really don't think you and I have much in common. Your interpretation of "gods truths" are not the same as mine. <P>ovrcs,<BR>i think we're both nitpicking a bit here. I don't think my beliefs are really that off from what any of you have stated. How two grown adults negotiate their own division of labor is not my concern. Whatever works for them is fine. However, these relationships do not exist in a vacuum. People are influenced by the beliefs of their family, friends, and others about what they should or should not be doing as a man, a woman, a couple, as parents, etc. On the surface, my beliefs are probably best manifested as a division of labor. On a deeper level, I suppose I am really talking about what our society considers "men's work" and "women's work"--only because the division of labor is so often divided down gender lines, and so often gets wrapped up in a bunch of religious mumbo-jumbo. <P>I think it would be more healthy for men to work less and spend more time with their wives and children. I think it would be more healthy for women to develop a sense of identity that doesn't depend solely on her children and husband--work is a very good way to do that. I understand that this is not always possible and alot of people just get by the best way they know how. That is not my problem either. <P>My only problem is people who think a person's spirit, talents, dreams, desires is only defined by their gender and that somehow they aren't REAL men or women if they don't shove themselves into a little box that is usually defined by some religious dogma. Hey, if someone happens to fit into that box, and it feels natural to them. Fine. But there is room in this world for people who don't. <P>When I opened this thread, I wasn't asking any questions. I shared an article that I thought was interesting. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 05, 2001).]

Student,<P>I used to have a lot of your opinons. I believed my education was important(it is if you use it wisely).I believed a lot of what the world told me. These were the very things that gets you ticked off. I tried to fill myself in a world that is unfair and cruel many times. I based who I was on what I did or didn't do. <P>God's truths have nothing to do with hurting others. You are correct in saying many bad things have been done in the name of religion.<P>I was broken by this world because I listen to this world. I also believed this world. Praise God I got over all the religion the world threw my way. Today I have freedom because of learning the truth about how God see me and created me. I am so thankful today that I don't have to defend being who or what I am. Gender doesn't matter. It matters to the world. It doesn't matter to the spirit. We are to live by faith. I have faith that God will care for me. He doesn't care if I am male or female.He has a purpose and a plan for me. God wants us to love one another just as we were created. We are to have compassion for each other. <BR>God is not a regulation He is a celebration. I too hate the things that the world has done and is doing in the name of religion. That is not of God. You and I agree more than you are able to see right now. You want respect. It took me a long time to understand were respect came from. Respect is not a demand we can make.<P>gentle

gentle,<P>"I believed a lot of what the world told me." <BR>I rarely have. At the age of around 14, I came to the understanding that I am alone, really, and that there is noone on this planet who is responsible for taking care of me--except me. If I believed and acted on everything "the world" told me I was supposed to do, then I wouldn't have gotten where I am. However, there is a price to pay for being the rock in the stream, as they say. I realized some time ago that I don't really have the energy to constantly try and swim upstream, nor do I have the strength to be the rock all of the time. It takes a special kind of person to be able to float on the stream without eventually being caught in the rapids or thrown over the falls. <P>While I agree with alot of what you say in principle, we are not exempt from the influence of those around us. It is a matter of personal preference how much energy any of us have to try and make changes. I have always been somewhat of an "activist" at heart and believe that the actions of one individual can have a strong impact on others--both for bad and for good. At the end of the day though, we all have to pick our battles.